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Is the Lion Cloak, S4(6) and stubborn really that much of an advantage? I run Swordmasters and Pheonix Guard a fair amount (almost always 60 spears in 3x20 too) and havent had issues. From what I seen if I need stubborn rolls that unit is not going to live long enough to be useful, or I'm wiffing on my dice rolls. It may be personal choice but I prefer the S4, 5+4++ guard, or taking SM with Ironcurse Icon and all their S5 attacks. Was wondering if there is a good counter arguement out there, or a link to one. Thanks

Because they are a nice comprise between the two, Not loosing a unit because it fluffs its attack (stubborn) is priceless and the lion cloak is very useful against mortars and massed missile fire fire.

I tend to run a smallish unit of 30 WLs and another smallish unit of 30 SMs and its the WLs that pull there weight nearly every game while my SMs just get deleted by shooting time and time again.

It must be the meta in my area, we have a big group but just recently got a dwarf player, most people are light on the shooting phase. Just assumed it was the same through out.

Yeah if your meta is light on shooting I can see why you would favor SMs over WLs.

Phoenix Guard can't really be compared to SM or WL as they are an anvil unit while the other two are hammer units. That said, where shooting is abundant, the WL are simply better as they will live longer.

If you are facing VC or Bretonnians, then SM are the clear choice.

Im not sold on SMs being the better choice against Brets. My Brets would rather face blocks of SMs than WLs.
Brets have S5 Trebs and S3 Longbow Archers both of which murder T3 SMs.
They have a much harder time against Stubborn, S6 and harder to shoot WLs

Jubear hit the nail on the head by saying they are a compromise between the two other choices. Basically you can break down the special choices like this:

-Sword Masters: Offensive Unit with their insane attacks with re-rolls @ S5, however only have 5+ armor save.

-White Lions: Balanced Unit w/ S6 attacks, stubborn and a 3+ save against shooting.

-Phoenix Guard: Defensive Unit w/ S4 attacks, 4+ ward save.

Basically the HE special choices can fit into whatever your army is requiring, hope this helps man

Also the jump from S5 to S6 is huge!

Aerethan wrote:Phoenix Guard can't really be compared to SM or WL as they are an anvil unit while the other two are hammer units.

I don't think any model that cost 15 points can ever really be considered an anvil, even if it has a 4+ ward. It's certainly a lot hardier than the other two elite units, but that doesn't really make it an anvil. The more successful High Elf players I've seen don't really think in terms of hammer and anvils anyway, but in terms of having a whole lot of different hammers, and picking out which one best suits which enemy target.

That's really what the three elite units are, three different kinds of hammer. You want Str 6, to beat high toughness and more important force a -3 save mod on high armoured enemy, you send White Lions. You want a unit that will absolutely buzzsaw through medium toughness, medium armour opponents, you go with Swordmasters. And if you want a unit that'll be able to put out a load of Str 4 hits every turn, while suffering about half the number of hits in response, then you go with Phoenix Guard.

White Lions are far killier then Swordmasters. Str6 will cut many opponents down before they get to swing.

Swordmasters in my experience are VERY squishy and will flop over if hit with a wet noodle. White Lions have the greater killing power and won't run away if your dice rolls do fail you. They wil also survive to make it to combat, unlike Swordmasters which will take tons of fire because everyone knows they are vulnerable to shooting.


Pheonix Guard are a completely different type of unit from SMs and WLs. They are meant to bunker a mage in/be a tarpit. Str4 with 1 attack isn't all that impressive, but 4+ armor, 4+ ward, and Fear make for a good anvil(they won't smash anything better the Str3 T3)

Grey Templar wrote:White Lions are far killier then Swordmasters. Str6 will cut many opponents down before they get to swing.

Swordmasters in my experience are VERY squishy and will flop over if hit with a wet noodle. White Lions have the greater killing power and won't run away if your dice rolls do fail you. They wil also survive to make it to combat, unlike Swordmasters which will take tons of fire because everyone knows they are vulnerable to shooting.

I don't think you've paid enough attention to those two attacks each Swordmaster has. To get more killing out of White Lion you basically have to go to Chaos Knights (the two units break even against T3 1+ saves, the slight advantage White Lions get is from the T4 of the Chaos Knights). Anything less armoured than that and the advantage is all with the Swordmasters.

Which, as has been pointed out, is offset by the White Lions improved save against missile fire, and having stubborn. All in all making the two units nicely balanced, with the advantage depending on expected opponents and playstyle.

Pheonix Guard are a completely different type of unit from SMs and WLs. They are meant to bunker a mage in/be a tarpit. Str4 with 1 attack isn't all that impressive, but 4+ armor, 4+ ward, and Fear make for a good anvil(they won't smash anything better the Str3 T3)

Again, at 15 points you really can't think of them as an anvil. Would anyone think of a unit with T3, heavy armour and no ward save as an anvil? No, well that's what Phoenix Guard are, except their 4+ ward save halves their casualties,

For High Elves, Pheonix Guard are an anvil.

Grey Templar wrote:For High Elves, Pheonix Guard are an anvil.

Which is to say that really they don't have an anvil.

I disagree 30-40 PG make an extremely reliable and resistant anvil honestly on par with almost anything in the game +4 ward is massive also the fact that most things are hitting on 4s and they hit harder then most other anvil units.

Oh and the "say no to magic banner" works great for keeping your investment alive.

Jubear wrote:I disagree 30-40 PG make an extremely reliable and resistant anvil honestly on par with almost anything in the game +4 ward is massive also the fact that most things are hitting on 4s and they hit harder then most other anvil units.

40 Phoenix Guard is 600 points... that's not an anvil.

I didnt know anvils had to be cheap. And sometimes you just have to pay the points to get what you need out of an army. I would love to have some cheap units in my HE but its not likely to happen.

Jubear wrote:I didnt know anvils had to be cheap. And sometimes you just have to pay the points to get what you need out of an army.

You should have known. I mean, an anvil is unit intended to blunt a powerful enemy unit, the whole point of the strategy is nullify something more expensive with something much cheaper. If you're spending 600 points to get something that just blunts an enemy unit then you're doing something wrong.

Of course, that Phoenix Guard unit is still pretty good, because with all those Str 4 ASF attacks it's actually fairly decent at killing the enemy. In other words, it's a lot more than an anvil unit. But you'd expect that for 600 points.

I would love to have some cheap units in my HE but its not likely to happen.

And that's fine, because it is the absence of cheap, anvil units that helps define what High Elves are. But it's no reason to pretend that Phoenix Guard are an anvil unit.

Meh it still does what I need it to do and that is stop a scary unit that I do not want to fight.

Ever Meta is different 600 points is hardly an outrageous amount of points to sink into a unit in mine. Most people run 3-4 huge blocks backed up by minimal characters and some chaff units that are mainly used as redirectors and as drops.

However I still maintain that a anvil units does not have to be cheap to qualify as an anvil all has to do is outlast its target.

Feel free to disagree its only toy soldiers.

Ok, PG are the only HE unit that CAN act as an anvil, although it maintains it's offensive ability as well, hence the price.

To me an anvil is different than Sebster describes(which isn't to say he's wrong). To me an anvil unit is one that has survivability enough to hold a stronger opponent until a hammer unit can come in and do the actual killing to win the combat.

So, to me, the PG are there to keep the enemy deathstar in place until my Swordmasters or Dragon Princes can come in and kill the enemy. PG are such that they don't just sit there and take the hits, as they can also dish out some damage as well, making them even better than most other anvil units. This is the role I use my PG for. I'm not saying that my way is the only way. It's just the way I view the unit within the perspective of my army.

My two copper on the matter.

Phoenix Guard are a tarpit unit in an army that relies on killing the enemy faster than they can kill you, and Sword Masters are still all-metal. White Lions are cheaper than Sword Masters, killier than Phoenix Guard, and look cooler than either of them.

Swordmasters are most definitely NOT metal anymore. IoB has wonderful plastic ones included with it.

Jubear wrote:Meh it still does what I need it to do and that is stop a scary unit that I do not want to fight.

Ever Meta is different 600 points is hardly an outrageous amount of points to sink into a unit in mine. Most people run 3-4 huge blocks backed up by minimal characters and some chaff units that are mainly used as redirectors and as drops.

However I still maintain that a anvil units does not have to be cheap to qualify as an anvil all has to do is outlast its target.

That's where we differ though. If it is there to outlast its target, that is, defeat the enemy by itself in combat, then I don't think it is an an anvil. To return to the original metaphor, the anvil is tough, but passive, and it is the hammer swinging down on it that does the damage.

If the unit itself is expected to defeat the enemy, then it's just a regular unit.

Feel free to disagree its only toy soldiers.

Fair enough. Not only that, it's arguing about words used to describe toy soldiers games, which is even more irrelevant. That is, I think we agree more or less on what Phoenix Guard do, just disagree on whether that should really be called acting as an anvil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Aerethan wrote:Ok, PG are the only HE unit that CAN act as an anvil, although it maintains it's offensive ability as well, hence the price.

To me an anvil is different than Sebster describes(which isn't to say he's wrong). To me an anvil unit is one that has survivability enough to hold a stronger opponent until a hammer unit can come in and do the actual killing to win the combat.

That's exactly what I think an anvil is. And Phoenix Guard serve better in the role than any other unit in the High Elf list, though I'd say they still don't serve as well in it as most units in other lists, because the nature of the High Elf list is to have a load of excellent hammers and no real anvil.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

AnomanderRake wrote:Phoenix Guard are a tarpit unit in an army that relies on killing the enemy faster than they can kill you

That's not a tarpit unit. If 'kills the enemy faster than they kill you' were the description of a tarpit, then Chaos Warriors would be a tarpit.

A tarpit is a unit with that can suck a unit in and won't let it go, because it has loads of wounds and some means of avoiding breaking turn after turn. If it's inflicting loads of wounds back it isn't a tarpit.

I prefer PG no comparison.

See to me I can't really compare PG with WL or SM. PG are my defensive/bunker unit and WL or SM are my hammer units. I use them for different roles within my army.

That said, this whole conversation has prompted me to buy 30 While Lions and another unit of IoB Swordmasters.

Aerethan wrote:See to me I can't really compare PG with WL or SM. PG are my defensive/bunker unit and WL or SM are my hammer units. I use them for different roles within my army.

That said, this whole conversation has prompted me to buy 30 While Lions and another unit of IoB Swordmasters.

Wewt you wont regret it =)

Also they are horrible models to build so I hope you have more patience then me or they will come out like gak.

Jubear wrote:

Aerethan wrote:See to me I can't really compare PG with WL or SM. PG are my defensive/bunker unit and WL or SM are my hammer units. I use them for different roles within my army.

That said, this whole conversation has prompted me to buy 30 While Lions and another unit of IoB Swordmasters.

Wewt you wont regret it =)

Also they are horrible models to build so I hope you have more patience then me or they will come out like gak.

I tend to take my time in assembly so that shouldn't be too bad a problem. I just bought 2 lion chariots and some more dragon princes today. WL is just such a huge cost for a single unit.

Aerethan wrote:

Jubear wrote:

Aerethan wrote:See to me I can't really compare PG with WL or SM. PG are my defensive/bunker unit and WL or SM are my hammer units. I use them for different roles within my army.

That said, this whole conversation has prompted me to buy 30 While Lions and another unit of IoB Swordmasters.

Wewt you wont regret it =)

Also they are horrible models to build so I hope you have more patience then me or they will come out like gak.

I tend to take my time in assembly so that shouldn't be too bad a problem. I just bought 2 lion chariots and some more dragon princes today. WL is just such a huge cost for a single unit.

Well my unit of 30 cost me $210....I am also getting some chariots to build is as the non WL ones and useing the lions as unit fillers to get my unit up to 40