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After years of playing it that this gave cover several judges at rtts pointing out that the section in the rulebook doesn't in itself grant cover. Thought i saw this addressed here before but i couldn't find it while using search

BRB pg 22 "firing out of area terain"

Yeah but it doesn't say they get cover

OK, if the firing model is more than 2" into terrain but not firing through two elements of the terrain, it does not grant cover.
But if the model is within 2" of the edge, it does not grant cover even if it is firing between two elements of the terrain.
Least, that's how I recall it shaking out in the last discussion.

Firing out of Area Terrain states:
Models that are inside area terrain firing out will position themselves with good fields of vision. Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain that they are occupying without that terrain coffering a cover save to the target.

This assumes that anything over 2" gets a save.

What does the 5th sentence say?

edit: ninja'ed

Tzarkahn wrote:This assumes that anything over 2" gets a save.

No it doesn't.

All poodles are dogs. Not all dogs are poodles.

Firing through area terrain grants a cover save to the target if the firer's LOS passes between elements of the terrain, or if the target is actually obscured.

Firing through less than 2" of terrain negates this cover save.

Firing through more than 2" of terrain does not in itself confer cover.

insaniak wrote:

Tzarkahn wrote:This assumes that anything over 2" gets a save.

No it doesn't.

All poodles are dogs. Not all dogs are poodles.

Firing through area terrain grants a cover save to the target if the firer's LOS passes between elements of the terrain, or if the target is actually obscured.

Firing through less than 2" of terrain negates this cover save.

Firing through more than 2" of terrain does not in itself confer cover.

+1

Tzarkahn wrote:Firing out of Area Terrain states:
Models that are inside area terrain firing out will position themselves with good fields of vision. Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain that they are occupying without that terrain coffering a cover save to the target.

This assumes that anything over 2" gets a save.

This. insaniak and VoxDei are wrong.

There are two bullet points from the BRB:

Firing through units or area terrain: If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain (such as between two trees in a wood) or through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the area terrain or unit rather than through it.

Firing out of area terrain: Models that are inside area terrain firing out will position themselves with good fields of vision. Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target. Remember, of course, that models still need to see their target in order to be able to shoot at all.

They are listed in this order. The rules are pretty clear to me. If you are in area terrain, and more than 2" from the edge of the area terrain closest to your target, you confer a cover save to your target.

If you argue otherwise you are wrong. Why are you wrong? Because the rule wouldn't actually do anything then. Ever. I mean, think again about what you are saying. If you are within 2" of a pair of trees you don't grant cover? The official Citadel woods sold by Games Workshop don't have that much space between the edge and the trees. If your interpretation was correct I could place my guys on the back side of the 'woods' and shoot all the way through it. This is obviously not correct.

Tzarkahn wrote:Firing out of Area Terrain states:
Models that are inside area terrain firing out will position themselves with good fields of vision. Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain that they are occupying without that terrain coffering a cover save to the target.

This assumes that anything over 2" gets a save.

insaniak wrote:

Tzarkahn wrote:This assumes that anything over 2" gets a save.

No it doesn't.

All poodles are dogs. Not all dogs are poodles.

Firing through area terrain grants a cover save to the target if the firer's LOS passes between elements of the terrain, or if the target is actually obscured.

Firing through less than 2" of terrain negates this cover save.

Firing through more than 2" of terrain does not in itself confer cover.

Uh, I'm sorry what? It actually sounds really less complex than what you're saying, insaniak. If what Tzarkhan posted is identical to the books reading, then it is what it says which is if you're in terrain and firing through 2 or more inches out of the terrain then the target gets a cover save.

I fail to understand what you're trying to get at here, talking about "elements of terrain" and other such additional sentences that don't appear to show up in the rule. *I know this comes across online as being snarky or a-holeish, but I assure you that is not my intention*

cowmonaut wrote:
They are listed in this order. The rules are pretty clear to me. If you are in area terrain, and more than 2" from the edge of the area terrain closest to your target, you confer a cover save to your target.

This is how my group plays it, with the exception of vehicles and monstrous creatures, which have their own rules for cover.

Kevin949 wrote:I fail to understand what you're trying to get at here, talking about "elements of terrain" and other such additional sentences that don't appear to show up in the rule. *I know this comes across online as being snarky or a-holeish, but I assure you that is not my intention*

Perhaps you should read the rule. Page 22, 3rd bullet point mentions elements of terrain. The 4th bullet point is also relevant.

I read it as insaniak states.

I get why folk think otherwise, but it does read that way.

Kevin949 wrote:

Uh, I'm sorry what? It actually sounds really less complex than what you're saying, insaniak. If what Tzarkhan posted is identical to the books reading, then it is what it says which is if you're in terrain and firing through 2 or more inches out of the terrain then the target gets a cover save.

No where in the book does it say if your firing through more than 2 inches of terrain that the target gets a cover..

It say if your firing through less than 2" of terrain then the target does not get cover. You cannot infer that the reverse is also true as that defies the rules of basic logic. As Insaniak all poodles are dogs but the reverse that all dogs are poodles is not true.

Therefore you have to go to the rules about firing through terrain which states your target is granted cover if firing through two elements of terrain (aka two trees or two walls)

Insaniak et al are 100% correct on this.

A implies B does not mean that B implies A. All apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples

Firing through 2 elements of terrain gives you a cover save. Firing through less than 2", even if you are through 2 elements of terrain, does not grant a cover save. You cannot go the other way round and assume that over 2" is always a cover save.

VoxDei wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

Uh, I'm sorry what? It actually sounds really less complex than what you're saying, insaniak. If what Tzarkhan posted is identical to the books reading, then it is what it says which is if you're in terrain and firing through 2 or more inches out of the terrain then the target gets a cover save.

No where in the book does it say if your firing through more than 2 inches of terrain that the target gets a cover..

It say if your firing through less than 2" of terrain then the target does not get cover. You cannot infer that the reverse is also true as that defies the rules of basic logic. As Insaniak all poodles are dogs but the reverse that all dogs are poodles is not true.

Therefore you have to go to the rules about firing through terrain which states your target is granted cover if firing through two elements of terrain (aka two trees or two walls)

I think my brain and eyes deceived me earlier because now that I re-read what Tzarkahn wrote, I get what you're all saying. I have no idea what my brain was thinking/seeing earlier. Sorry about that.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Insaniak et al are 100% correct on this.

A implies B does not mean that B implies A. All apples are fruit, but not all fruit are apples

Firing through 2 elements of terrain gives you a cover save. Firing through less than 2", even if you are through 2 elements of terrain, does not grant a cover save. You cannot go the other way round and assume that over 2" is always a cover save.

I don't have the book in front of me, but does it say what "does" happen if you fire through more than 2" of the terrain you're in (but no other terrain/LOS blocking items)?

Kevin949 wrote:

I don't have the book in front of me, but does it say what "does" happen if you fire through more than 2" of the terrain you're in (but no other terrain/LOS blocking items)?

No, it doesn't therefor nothing happens. aka no cover save

VoxDei wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

I don't have the book in front of me, but does it say what "does" happen if you fire through more than 2" of the terrain you're in (but no other terrain/LOS blocking items)?

No, it doesn't therefor nothing happens. aka no cover save

Then what is the point of the entry?

kronk wrote:

VoxDei wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

I don't have the book in front of me, but does it say what "does" happen if you fire through more than 2" of the terrain you're in (but no other terrain/LOS blocking items)?

No, it doesn't therefor nothing happens. aka no cover save

Then what is the point of the entry?

As explained. It's to tell you that EVEN if you have two terrain elements or partial cover from the terrain your in if you are within two inches from the edge those terrain elements don't confer cover save.

cowmonaut wrote:

There are two bullet points from the BRB:

Firing through units or area terrain: If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain (such as between two trees in a wood) or through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the area terrain or unit rather than through it.

Firing out of area terrain: Models that are inside area terrain firing out will position themselves with good fields of vision. Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target. Remember, of course, that models still need to see their target in order to be able to shoot at all.

They are listed in this order. The rules are pretty clear to me. If you are in area terrain, and more than 2" from the edge of the area terrain closest to your target, you confer a cover save to your target.

If you argue otherwise you are wrong. Why are you wrong? Because the rule wouldn't actually do anything then. Ever. I mean, think again about what you are saying. If you are within 2" of a pair of trees you don't grant cover? The official Citadel woods sold by Games Workshop don't have that much space between the edge and the trees. If your interpretation was correct I could place my guys on the back side of the 'woods' and shoot all the way through it. This is obviously not correct.

Wrong.

If you are inside area terrain, AND firing between two elements of that terrain, you grant cover to your target. The first rule tells us this.

The second rule carves out an exception; if you are inside the area terrain, AND there is less than 2" of said terrain between you and your target, then you do NOT give them a cover save, even if you are firing between two terrain elements.

If you are not firing between two elements of terrain and the target is not obscured by something, they NEVER get a cover save regardless of where you are.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:

There are two bullet points from the BRB:

Firing through units or area terrain: If a model fires through the gaps between some elements of area terrain (such as between two trees in a wood) or through the gaps between models in an intervening unit, the target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. Note that this does not apply if the shots go over the area terrain or unit rather than through it.

Firing out of area terrain: Models that are inside area terrain firing out will position themselves with good fields of vision. Therefore they may fire through up to 2" of the area terrain they are occupying without that terrain conferring a cover save to the target. Remember, of course, that models still need to see their target in order to be able to shoot at all.

They are listed in this order. The rules are pretty clear to me. If you are in area terrain, and more than 2" from the edge of the area terrain closest to your target, you confer a cover save to your target.

If you argue otherwise you are wrong. Why are you wrong? Because the rule wouldn't actually do anything then. Ever. I mean, think again about what you are saying. If you are within 2" of a pair of trees you don't grant cover? The official Citadel woods sold by Games Workshop don't have that much space between the edge and the trees. If your interpretation was correct I could place my guys on the back side of the 'woods' and shoot all the way through it. This is obviously not correct.

Wrong.

If you are inside area terrain, AND firing between two elements of that terrain, you grant cover to your target. The first rule tells us this.

The second rule carves out an exception; if you are inside the area terrain, AND there is less than 2" of said terrain between you and your target, then you do NOT give them a cover save, even if you are firing between two terrain elements.

If you are not firing between two elements of terrain and the target is not obscured by something, they NEVER get a cover save regardless of where you are.

Is it your assertion that if there is only one piece of area terrain between the shooter and the target that they DO or DO NOT get a cover save (ignoring the 2" inside terrain for a moment).

kronk wrote:

Is it your assertion that if there is only one piece of area terrain between the shooter and the target that they DO or DO NOT get a cover save (ignoring the 2" inside terrain for a moment).

If there is only one 'element' of terrain, whatever an 'element' happens to be (I believe the example in the book is trees in a piece of forest terrain) then they do not get the cover save granted for shooting between two elements of terrain. If enough models are physically obscured, the unit might still gain a cover save from THAT, but that's an entirely separate issue.

The rules for area terrain are concerned entirely with the save granted for shooting between two elements of said terrain. Area terrain is not special in any other way, and the mere fact of a shooting unit being inside the footprint of a piece of area terrain does not, by itself, confer a cover save upon their target, regardless of how far into the terrain they are. It did in 4th Edition, but it no longer does so.

What if you put 1 tree on a hill to show that this hill is area terrain.

A single tree is only one element, right? So no cover from shooting through the area terrain hill unless the hill itself is large enough to block line of sight for the unit?

VoxDei wrote:

kronk wrote:

VoxDei wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:

I don't have the book in front of me, but does it say what "does" happen if you fire through more than 2" of the terrain you're in (but no other terrain/LOS blocking items)?

No, it doesn't therefor nothing happens. aka no cover save

Then what is the point of the entry?

As explained. It's to tell you that EVEN if you have two terrain elements or partial cover from the terrain your in if you are within two inches from the edge those terrain elements don't confer cover save.

But I'm not talking about if you ARE within the 2". I'm talking about if you are more than 2" into the terrain, still in the terrain, firing out at a unit on open ground. You keep bringing up the "within 2 inches" part which is not part of this anymore. If the rule doesn't say what happens if you're more than 2 inches in the terrain, then why even define the rule at all if there is no consequence for being deeply entrenched in a forest? Why bother making a distinction of 2 inches when, by your statement, nothing happens. Well, either that simply isn't the case or GW writing strikes again.

I personally feel that it's intended to be if you're MORE than 2 inches into terrain and firing out, your target gets a cover save. If you're 2 inches or LESS from the "edge" of the terrain [elements or piece] then your target does not get a save. There are other nuance pieces to this such as units firing at each other from within the same terrain [element or piece] and whatnot (which if you look at that rule, it also states the 2 inch limitation before cover saves are applied to either unit).

Kronk wrote:A single tree is only one element, right? So no cover from shooting through the area terrain hill unless the hill itself is large enough to block line of sight for the unit?

That would be correct.


For the rule in question, while it certainly could be written more clearly, it's really not that complicated. Something that removes an effect doesn't actually mean that this effect is always present otherwise.

A model hit by a power weapon doesn't get an armour save. Does that mean that every model has an armour save? Clearly not... All it means is that if the model normally has an armour save, it doesn't get it when hit by a power weapon.

The rule under discussion here is exactly the same. Firing through less than 2" of area terrain doesn't confer a cover save to the target. That doesn't mean that the target would always have a cover save for firing through the terrain... it simply negates a cover save if there otherwise would be one if you are firing through less than 2" of terrain.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevin949 wrote: If the rule doesn't say what happens if you're more than 2 inches in the terrain, then why even define the rule at all if there is no consequence for being deeply entrenched in a forest?

Because the effect of being further into the terrain is covered elsewhere.

All that the rule under discussion is doing is granting an exception where you are firing through less than 2" of terrain. It doesn't alter the rules already established for cover granted by area terrain... which are that the firer's LOS needs to pass between elements of the terrain to grant cover. Just firing through the terrain, regardless of how far you're firing through it, does not grant a cover save.

insaniak wrote:

Kevin949 wrote:A single tree is only one element, right? So no cover from shooting through the area terrain hill unless the hill itself is large enough to block line of sight for the unit?

That would be correct.


For the rule in question, while it certainly could be written more clearly, it's really not that complicated. Something that removes an effect doesn't actually mean that this effect is always present otherwise.

A model hit by a power weapon doesn't get an armour save. Does that mean that every model has an armour save? Clearly not... All it means is that if the model normally has an armour save, it doesn't get it when hit by a power weapon.

The rule under discussion here is exactly the same. Firing through less than 2" of area terrain doesn't confer a cover save to the target. That doesn't mean that the target would always have a cover save for firing through the terrain... it simply negates a cover save if there otherwise would be one if you are firing through less than 2" of terrain.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevin949 wrote: If the rule doesn't say what happens if you're more than 2 inches in the terrain, then why even define the rule at all if there is no consequence for being deeply entrenched in a forest?

Because the effect of being further into the terrain is covered elsewhere.

All that the rule under discussion is doing is granting an exception where you are firing through less than 2" of terrain. It doesn't alter the rules already established for cover granted by area terrain... which are that the firer's LOS needs to pass between elements of the terrain to grant cover. Just firing through the terrain, regardless of how far you're firing through it, does not grant a cover save.

Alright. Also, your first quote wasn't me though you have my name there. Just FYI.

Kevin949 wrote:

But I'm not talking about if you ARE within the 2". I'm talking about if you are more than 2" into the terrain, still in the terrain, firing out at a unit on open ground. You keep bringing up the "within 2 inches" part which is not part of this anymore. If the rule doesn't say what happens if you're more than 2 inches in the terrain, then why even define the rule at all if there is no consequence for being deeply entrenched in a forest? Why bother making a distinction of 2 inches when, by your statement, nothing happens. Well, either that simply isn't the case or GW writing strikes again.

I personally feel that it's intended to be if you're MORE than 2 inches into terrain and firing out, your target gets a cover save. If you're 2 inches or LESS from the "edge" of the terrain [elements or piece] then your target does not get a save. There are other nuance pieces to this such as units firing at each other from within the same terrain [element or piece] and whatnot (which if you look at that rule, it also states the 2 inch limitation before cover saves are applied to either unit).

The rule has nothing to do with if your father than 2" into the terrain. I keep bringing up within 2 inches because thats all the rule deals with. This rule does not apply if you are farther than 2" from the edge of the terrain. The rule is there incase are are within 2" of the terrrain and nothing else.

Kevin949 wrote:Alright. Also, your first quote wasn't me though you have my name there. Just FYI.

Fixed

I just have to ask, last game I was about to deploy a vindicare deepish (over 2") into woods, and shoot my brothers CCB. he told me not to, claiming everything (vehicles included) get a coversave in that case. I had clear los between trees. I didnt think he would get one, but I havent played in 2 months n he has, so I believed him. was he right?

motyak wrote:I just have to ask, last game I was about to deploy a vindicare deepish (over 2") into woods, and shoot my brothers CCB. he told me not to, claiming everything (vehicles included) get a coversave in that case. I had clear los between trees. I didnt think he would get one, but I havent played in 2 months n he has, so I believed him. was he right?

He was not right, vehicles only get a cove safe if they are half obscured, if anyone tells you otherwise......punch them. (at least Im not not bitter) *steps down from soapbox*
but seriously Ive had many an argument about this topic and everytime it pisses me off.


there is no way in the physical universe we occupy that a terminator squad gets a cover save because I'm standing 3 inches inside of a lawn shooting out of it