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iflywhirlybirds wrote:

motyak wrote:I just have to ask, last game I was about to deploy a vindicare deepish (over 2") into woods, and shoot my brothers CCB. he told me not to, claiming everything (vehicles included) get a coversave in that case. I had clear los between trees. I didnt think he would get one, but I havent played in 2 months n he has, so I believed him. was he right?

He was not right, vehicles only get a cove safe if they are half obscured, if anyone tells you otherwise......punch them. (at least Im not not bitter) *steps down from soapbox*
but seriously Ive had many an argument about this topic and everytime it pisses me off.


there is no way in the physical universe we occupy that a terminator squad gets a cover save because I'm standing 3 inches inside of a lawn shooting out of it

Sure, but when those three inches translate into like 10 foot depth in real life, when you're trying to track moving targets with grass and branches and such constantly passing in front of you, or perhaps your target slipped on the mud just as you pulled the trigger (this is also why grass is, I think, a 5 or 6+ instead of a 4+), your aim will be off a bit. If you do this in a forest, maybe you pulled the trigger just as a tree got between you and your moving target. *Shrug* Just thinking dynamically fluffy here.

Also, I suppose this is why we don't occupy the grimdark world as well.

I think I'm going to need a picture/diagram. From what you are describing, I've never seen any terrain (official or home made) that would grant a cover save to the target then based on your interpretation of area terrain rules. I don't see the point for making a clarification for something that will only occur 1% of the time, it goes against the way the rest of the rules are made (see movement and pivoting).

The idea is that you can get to the 'edge' of the terrain [woods] and fire without granting a cover save, but while able to claim one yourself.

See, this biggest problem is we're trying to use logic with a gw game. Logic HAS NO PLACE in 40k, non whatsoever.

I was just using the rules.

iflywhirlybirds wrote:See, this biggest problem is we're trying to use logic with a gw game. Logic HAS NO PLACE in 40k, non whatsoever.

Yep, no logic, just rules (which could be GWs motto............)

cowmonaut wrote:I think I'm going to need a picture/diagram. From what you are describing, I've never seen any terrain (official or home made) that would grant a cover save to the target then based on your interpretation of area terrain rules.

Any forest base that has at least two trees on it will grant cover to anything that is between the trees from the point of view of the shooter... unless the shooter is within 2" of the edge of the area terrain piece.

insaniak wrote:

Kronk wrote:A single tree is only one element, right? So no cover from shooting through the area terrain hill unless the hill itself is large enough to block line of sight for the unit?

That would be correct.

But if I put two trees on that hill and shoot through it, they get cover? (Ignoring Vehicle and Monstrous Creature cover rules).

There is an image on page 22. The one on the right (C) is behind the terrain, but not elements of it.

"Model C is not in cover."

kronk wrote:

But if I put two trees on that hill and shoot through it, they get cover? (Ignoring Vehicle and Monstrous Creature cover rules).

Correct.

kronk wrote:
But if I put two trees on that hill and shoot through it, they get cover? (Ignoring Vehicle and Monstrous Creature cover rules).

Only if the two trees are part of a piece of area terrain. Hills are not always considered area terrain................

kirsanth wrote:The idea is that you can get to the 'edge' of the terrain [woods] and fire without granting a cover save, but while able to claim one yourself.

That's what people (myself included) were arguing but others are saying otherwise.

insaniak wrote:Any forest base that has at least two trees on it will grant cover to anything that is between the trees from the point of view of the shooter... unless the shooter is within 2" of the edge of the area terrain piece.

Emphasis mine. This is an important clarification. It wasn't said originally and is what was making me question people. From what was being said before it sounded like you could be 4" deep in the Area Terrain, but because you only had 2" or less between your model and the "other side" of the elements you are shooting through you could shoot out without giving a cover save.

The clarification makes sense. If you are further than 2" in from the edge, your target should have a cover save. Unless there's not 2 or more 'elements' between the firers and the edge.

Now I am confused.

I am agreeing with insaniak, right?

cowmonaut wrote:I think I'm going to need a picture/diagram.

Here's a couple of diagrams I made. In the first one;



The firing unit is 'F'.
(1) Unit 'A' gets a cover save because it is in the terrain.
(2) Unit 'B' gets a cover save because 'F' is firing through the terrain (between 2 elements, in this case 2 trees).
(3) Unit 'C' gets no cover save because 'F' is firing over the terrain but not through it.

In this diagram;



'A' would get a cover save from 'F2' because 'F2' is firing through 2 elements of the terrain, just like (2) above.
However 'A' would not get a cover save from 'F1' because even though 'F1' is firing through 2 elements of the terrain, it is firing through less than 2" of the terrain.
If there were no trees in the terrain at all, 'A' would not get a cover save from either 'F1' or 'F2' because neither unit would be firing through terrain.

The way I've had it explained to me you get cover for 3 things

1) you are in area terrain
2) true Los is obscuring at least one toe
3) they can see you but they are shooting through terrain and you are between two trees, rocks etc.

1 and 2 are pretty common... I don't remember ever seeing 3 occur

I see 3 all the time. IME most of the time when a forest is set up on the table, the trees are spread out so that at least one is at each end.

time wizard wrote:

cowmonaut wrote:I think I'm going to need a picture/diagram.

Here's a couple of diagrams I made.

Listen to this man, he has it right.

I have no idea what this is about. What's the point of area terrain if you don't get a cover save for shooting through it? Why is it easier to shoot at someone behind the area terrain than in it?
I thought with area terrain cover was granted for any model in or behind it, hence the virtues of area terrain over actually placing an entire wood, or whatever.

Joey wrote:I have no idea what this is about. What's the point of area terrain if you don't get a cover save for shooting through it? Why is it easier to shoot at someone behind the area terrain than in it?
I thought with area terrain cover was granted for any model in or behind it, hence the virtues of area terrain over actually placing an entire wood, or whatever.

So long as you've got at least two things on the area terrain, one on each end, you DO get a cover save when someone tries to shoot you through it.

It's only if someone placed a forest with a single sad and lonely tree on it that you won't get a cover save.

Joey wrote:I have no idea what this is about.

What it is about is that if you are not IN the area terrain, then you can only gain a cover save if the shooting unit is shooting through two elements of the terrain. However, if the shooting unit is in the terrain but within 2" of the edge, then even if they shoot through two elements of the terrain, no cover is granted. Got it? However, the reverse is NOT true. If the shooting unit is more than 2" in the terrain, their target does not automatically get cover, the shooting unit must still be firing through two elements of the terrain.

BeRzErKeR wrote:

Joey wrote:I have no idea what this is about. What's the point of area terrain if you don't get a cover save for shooting through it? Why is it easier to shoot at someone behind the area terrain than in it?
I thought with area terrain cover was granted for any model in or behind it, hence the virtues of area terrain over actually placing an entire wood, or whatever.

So long as you've got at least two things on the area terrain, one on each end, you DO get a cover save when someone tries to shoot you through it.

It's only if someone placed a forest with a single sad and lonely tree on it that you won't get a cover save.

If that's the rules as written then that's really stupid. I'm glad we don't play with forrests as area terrain or I can see horrific arguments breaking out over it.

Joey wrote:If that's the rules as written then that's really stupid. I'm glad we don't play with forrests as area terrain or I can see horrific arguments breaking out over it.

We play that the forest terrain we use is area terrain and that all firing across the forest terrain is firing through it, granting cover saves the same as firing between elements.

This is why you need to discuss terrain features before the game with your opponent.

Nevermind...

time wizard wrote:This is why you need to discuss terrain features before the game with your opponent.

On this I agree 100%.