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So, I've noticed in several threads that some people really, (and I mean REALLY) seem to be very serious about the amount of grimdark in this game. It gets to the point sometimes that it just seems silly to me, and I'm wondering if I'm in the minority here. I've seen people who seem to break into a fit of frothing rage that'd make khorn proud at the mere mention of say, people actually having feelings called happiness, or that certain empires are not "grim" enough for the setting (I'm not going to name them, they get griefed enough already). I know not all players are like this, but are the ones who get all bent out of shape over things not being "grimdark" enough actually being serious. or are they just joking (I'm really hoping the latter for their sake)

I mean, I've seen what 40k used to be, with all its weird units, wargear, and occasionally god awful models and I always wondered when and why they changed it to what it is today. It looked like an awesome, hilarious, and very original game (aside from the "Fantasy, IN SPACE!" thing) I know the rules may not have been everyone's cup of tee, but why did they change the universe to the dark gloom and doom we see today? Don't get me wrong, I still find the universe hilariously over the top, to the point where its almost impossible take seriously, but it seems like GW is actually trying to be serious as opposed to the rediculous imagery that it actually embodies. Even serious books that I really like, such as the Gaunt's Ghost novels, still have occasional scenes that are just too nuts for me to not laugh a little. I mean, things like powered armored armies who are humanity's best soldiers and tacticians, having their most in depth tactical choices boiling down to "do I use a sword today, or an axe", or the fact that a head on charge seems to always work no matter how much firepower the enemy has. Body counts that can literally reach the millions/billions, the imperium's hilariously bad administrative branch (one typo, whoops we forgot to give a planet food for a 100 years, d'oh well), and conditions of life for civilians that literally make the dark ages sound like a tropical resort don't help matters either for me.

When I see all this, I just can't take the universe seriously, and see it more as a parody. I love the strategy aspect and the modeling, but the whole "in the grim dark future, there is only war" just came off as cheesy to me. When did this whole thing happen? Was it when they switched from Rogue Trader? Was it when they started making money? Was it when they had all the squats get nommed by the tyranids? Or was it just a gradual creep that went unnoticed until it was too late? I'm not saying its bad, just that I have a hard time seeing how people take all this seriously. I'm not trying to start an argument or anything, I just want to see if I'm not the only one who sees this whole universe as more of a parody.

TL;DR: Do you take grimdark stuff at face value, or do you see it more as a parody/fun? Do you get bent out of shape over something not being "Grimdark" enough for 40K?

Hey, i play Orks.

The ONLY race having a good time

I don't take the setting too seriously, unless i feel the need to nerdrage over something stoopid

I value and prefer the extremely dystopian setting 40k has -- very enjoyable stuff(ironically).

However, I don't get that 'bent out of shape' when certain non-grimdark elements are exposed, like the typical comic relief portrayal of orks(I think 40k needs at least something like that, and I like to have fun with ork fluff). I also think a faction like the tau have a place or purpose to serve.

What I do dislike is how much epic heroics seem to be the norm for a lot of forces. I guess it's to be expected with the venue being a codex and the writers being...limited in their view(and apparently skill), but it's still annoying to have things get even more over-the-top than 40k needs to be, with special characters facing down entire armies and such.

Some people get bent out of shape about it.

But then there are always some people who get bent out of shape about a thing.


Personally I think "There are these 8 foot tall dudes in power armor who ride around on huge freaking wolves... lol what?"

You can't take much seriously after that.

The Grimdark must be taken seriously, lest the Grimdark take you seriously.

Ascalam wrote:Hey, i play Orks.

The ONLY race having a good time

IDK, Dark Eldar and Slannesh seem to know how to party

I think the GRIMDARK is good for a chuckle. In which universe except warhammer are every single faction the bad guy, nothing is ever going to go well, and no matter how hard you try, the only option you have is not just failure, but phantasmal and painfully stupid failure? To quote a robot: "It's gonna be fun on the bun!"

I had to chuckle today when I heard the Ultramarines referred to as "not grimdark enough". So yeah, it does appear people take their grimdark way, way too seriously. I mean, I get why some people don't think the Tau fit into the universe (heck, I think the Dark Eldar don't fit. They are like the B movie of grimdark where they are so bad they're silly instead of ominous). But this is a setting with drunken space vikings, and what have apparently become idiot savant space fungi (I miss the old orks...).


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MrMoustaffa wrote:serious books that I really like, such as the Gaunt's Ghost novels,

Wait... what?

Veteran Sergeant wrote:I had to chuckle today when I heard the Ultramarines referred to as "not grimdark enough". So yeah, it does appear people take their grimdark way, way too seriously. I mean, I get why some people don't think the Tau fit into the universe (heck, I think the Dark Eldar don't fit. They are like the B movie of grimdark where they are so bad they're silly instead of ominous). But this is a setting with drunken space vikings, and what have apparently become idiot savant space fungi (I miss the old orks...).

Is that one somewhere in the gigantic Ultramarines thread going on right now? I'm really liking that thread, I've been learning all kinds of stuff about them from it.

As for me, between the drunken space vikings, the loony immortal robots with alzheimers, the humans all so ridiculously zealous that they'd make the spanish inquisition bluff, and the orks ( i mean really, they dont even need me to say anything and they're still awesome) I kinda love the rediculously awesome universe we have. I guess with GW saying all the fluff is true, it just may be PR, legends, etc. that can account for part of the crazy stuff, but still. When you've got guys stabbing a greater demon to death with a flint knife in single combat and coming out in one piece, I think you threw all seriousness out the window...

I just hope this doesn't devolve into a flamewar between the guys who can't take jokes and the guys like me who try to find the humor in everything...


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MrMoustaffa wrote:serious books that I really like, such as the Gaunt's Ghost novels,

Wait... what?

I feel their needs to be a certain balance. I actually really enjoy the grimdarkness of some aspects, the constant war and harsh nature of the Imperium. However there are sometimes I feel things go too far, Commissars killing more of their own men than the enemy, the hopelessly gakky admininstration, fething Space Vikings.

I love Orks because they are completely over the top. I enjoy the dark aspects of the Imperium with its focus on survival at any means necessary. I hate the Tau when they ARE presented as incredibly reasonable and good people. When they have a little dark aspect to them I dont have an issue with them, they just need something a little bit dark.


So ya its all about a right balance. You can have some things over the top, but there should be a limit on how many things are OTT. However everything should be a little bit dark in my eyes. *shrugs*

Galdos wrote:I feel their needs to be a certain balance. I actually really enjoy the grimdarkness of some aspects, the constant war and harsh nature of the Imperium. However there are sometimes I feel things go too far, Commissars killing more of their own men than the enemy, the hopelessly gakky admininstration, fething Space Vikings.

I love Orks because they are completely over the top. I enjoy the dark aspects of the Imperium with its focus on survival at any means necessary. I hate the Tau when they ARE presented as incredibly reasonable and good people. When they have a little dark aspect to them I dont have an issue with them, they just need something a little bit dark.


So ya its all about a right balance. You can have some things over the top, but there should be a limit on how many things are OTT. However everything should be a little bit dark in my eyes. *shrugs*

This is a good point that I hadn't even considered. Edited it into the poll in case anybody else felt the same way. You brought up a lot of points that I hadn't thought about, but they make a lot of sense

Galdos wrote:I feel their needs to be a certain balance. I actually really enjoy the grimdarkness of some aspects, the constant war and harsh nature of the Imperium. However there are sometimes I feel things go too far, Commissars killing more of their own men than the enemy, the hopelessly gakky admininstration, fething Space Vikings.

I love Orks because they are completely over the top. I enjoy the dark aspects of the Imperium with its focus on survival at any means necessary. I hate the Tau when they ARE presented as incredibly reasonable and good people. When they have a little dark aspect to them I dont have an issue with them, they just need something a little bit dark.


So ya its all about a right balance. You can have some things over the top, but there should be a limit on how many things are OTT. However everything should be a little bit dark in my eyes. *shrugs*

This pretty much sums up how I feel. I find the "grimdark"-ness of the 40k universe makes the stories compelling. While I love the Utopian worlds of Star Trek and the calm zen of Star Wars' Jedi, I've always had a soft-spot for the particularly vicious anti-heros. In 40k, every character (with a few notable exceptions that I pretend don't exist) is a sort of antihero.

I'm also a fan of dark and absurd comedy, which 40k's over-the-top attitude delivers in bulk. Frankly, I think the parodying of the grimdark universe is pretty funny - it really fits with my sense of humor.

Basically, I think a balance is nice. Too grimdark and the heroic aspect of the game evaporates; too over-the-top comedic and the setting ceases to be cool.

I think 40k at its best is flexible enough to switch between serious and silly. Take the Emperor's Children for instance. They can easily be characterized as depraved, sadistic, demon-worshipping, murderers. Or they can be glam metal hooligans who use the power of rock to destroy their opponents. Whether I want to chanell silly or scary through my army depends on my mood really.

I live in Grimdark since I was born, so there is really not big difference between 40k and real world to me when it comes to Grimdarkness.

If 40k's grimdark had no trace of irony, it would be a wretched, wretched universe.

asimo77 wrote:I think 40k at its best is flexible enough to switch between serious and silly. Take the Emperor's Children for instance. They can easily be characterized as depraved, sadistic, demon-worshipping, murderers. Or they can be glam metal hooligans who use the power of rock to destroy their opponents. Whether I want to chanell silly or scary through my army depends on my mood really.

Hit the nail on the head here. I can tell a serious story with my Marines or spin some goofy fluff with the grimdark turned up so high that it's funny.

I take the grimdark background story somewhat seriously, because I enjoy reading the Gaunt's Ghosts and Inquisitor novels, plus I own quite a bit of IA books, so I also like my armies fluffy.
I however don't take it TOO seriously, as I'm also currently collecting a KoS Ork warband and also really digging their fluff at the same time (Red paintjob and supercharged engines).
I like the fluff realistically grimdark, so no constant battlefield executions and sacrificing for the Emperor, because that would just end up getting either comical or boring.

I appreciate friendships, comeradery and even love affairs in a dark and interesting setting, where such things shouldn't be taken for granted. This is why I love to read novels based in the 40K universe.

This is why I don't like guys bragging about their "OMG Übermehreens", or insanely triggerhappy Commisars because it either ruins the illusion of struggle and hardship for the Imperium, or is just downright stupid (shooting all the soldiers so there is no one left to fight).

I think the Dan Abnett Eisenhorn and Gaunt's Ghosts novels are just about right with the grimdark. I think they show it's perfectly fine to mix the darker elements against more normal sci-fi fare. Sometimes they get pretty over the top (the parade scene on the hive world in Eisenhorn trilogy), but than you have completely normal science fiction like car chases and worlds that are taken right from the Firefly universe.

I like to look at Ultramar as a world that has a cool techno-Roman style, where togas might fit right in at some sort of formal event, but you can see aircars and shuttles fly past an orbital spire on the horizon out the window. That helps define the desperate struggle of the masses on a planet like Necromunda.

The Tau don't fit in any goofier than the Eldar and their "giant High-Elven aquarium spaceship worlds".

It's a fiction universe. I take it as seriously as I take anything else fiction.

Brother SRM wrote:If 40k's grimdark had no trace of irony, it would be a wretched, wretched universe.

asimo77 wrote:I think 40k at its best is flexible enough to switch between serious and silly. Take the Emperor's Children for instance. They can easily be characterized as depraved, sadistic, demon-worshipping, murderers. Or they can be glam metal hooligans who use the power of rock to destroy their opponents. Whether I want to chanell silly or scary through my army depends on my mood really.

Hit the nail on the head here. I can tell a serious story with my Marines or spin some goofy fluff with the grimdark turned up so high that it's funny.

Yep.
As much as there's serious stuff in WH40K, the constant use of tropes in the game and (sometimes) subtle parodies of said tropes means that it makes for both a decent, engaging storyline with at least a spirited stab at pathos and whatnot, and a wonderfully daft exploration of the Space Opera genre.

Grimdark is over-used in the setting and kills suspense for me.
There wasn't a voting option for that?

(the parade scene on the hive world in Eisenhorn trilogy),

The March of the Triumph? That's perhaps my second favorite moment from any book.

The first being the K-Mart scene in "Swan Song" by Robert R. McCammon.

I think it's serious and makes for good stories, particularly with the old fluff, however, it can be intentionally over done for lolz.

Oh, I agree it was awesome. But a bit over the top, really, at least the part about millions of people lining the streets and a dome so tall that clouds gather under it.. But... Abnett did a great job describing what all the excesses did to the world as a consequence.

I like my grimdark over the top to the point of humorous, like how it was in Rogue Trader. It's what makes 40k unique from the dozens of other Sci Fi settings it steals from.

Edit: Actually, scratch what I said before

Judge Dredd is a good example of what I like in turns of grimdark.

I don't like it when 40k isn't grimdark unless it's funny, so kind of torn between options.

Damn im still getting use to the Dakka Dakka site. How do you change a vote?

Galdos wrote:Damn im still getting use to the Dakka Dakka site. How do you change a vote?

I don't think you can. Sorry

I enjoy the darker setting of the 40k universe. That being said, you do need levity to lighten up the mood once in a while. A drop of sugar helps sweeten the recipe, as it were. That being said, I don't like it to be too light hearted. I have no problems taking it seriously, and I have no problems with the occasional joke in a Dan Abnett novel, or even a whole series with a humorous bent (like the Cain novels). One of the things that makes the 40k universe so great is that it's so large you can justify almost anything as plausible.

If I could send anyone to the 41st millenium, it'd have to be Eric Idle.

shrike wrote:If I could send anyone to the 41st millenium, it'd have to be Eric Idle.

I can totally imagine him singing this while being in the IG