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Since Orks have sooooo many anti-infantry options in just about every build imaginable, are there ever any situations where
it would be more effective to run Grotzookas?
I love the Grotzooka, but I have a hard time taking it in comp builds when I want to win in this mech heavy world.

I guess it depends on what you plan on using your Kans for. If you are specifically trying to use them to pop vehicles, then you probably want the Rokkit Launchas. But, in my Kan Wall army, the Grotzookas are always feared the most. Typically I'm running the Kans anyway to get them and the boyz behind them into CC. But, when I do stop and shoot, the Grotzookas are far more effective. S6 is nothing to sneeze at, and the fact that a squad of 3 Kans gets 6 S6 templates to drop makes them a real terror. Often I end up popping a light transport with Lootas in the backfield and then blowing up the passengers with the Grotzookas. Works like a charm.

The grotzooka is an amazing weapon for the orks. First, it's a blast weapon, meaning you don't need to rely on the orky ballistic skill. Second, it's a high strength item, that forces saves easily and third, it can kill vehicles.

Use against transports, or (even better) the guys who get out from those transports. Against deep strikers, such as terminators, they are crazy good if the deep striking fools decide to shoot when they arrive, only to get hit by a good 6 blasts, all possibly getting tons of hits.

I run my kans in units of three as skorchas, rokkits, and grotzookas. Amazingly, the grotzookas are always ignored, unit it's too late.

but with a BS of 3, S8, aren't these rokkits your "best" ranged anti-tank?
9 Kans = 9 rokkits a round.
I'm not arguing against Grotzookas, cause I really think they are the most awesome weapon the Orks have, but they just don't seem to be as useful when I have 160 shoota dice going off every round.

I hope you're not arguing against grotzookas, given what your avatar is.

I think the grotzooka is more favoured because it is cheaper and more versatile than the rokkit launcha while still able to drop a transport. If you were playing a tank-heavy force then I suppose I'd take rokkit launchas, maybe, but even a rokkit launcha can only glance AV 14. Orks need better guns.

They're both good options. Personally, I find that I don't stop and shoot with my Kans enough to take advantage of the Rokkit Launcha's longer range. However, when I'm in close, I will often shoot my Grotzookas at the stuff I plan on trying to assault. Plus for light armored vehicles they work just as well as Rokkit Launchas. Personally, I find that I have pretty back luck with Rokkit Launchas in general. So, I prefer the Grotzookas. But to each his own.

My problem with the Grotzookas is they add to what Orks are already strong at. Killing lots of infantry at short/medium range.

The volume of shots that can pour out of shootaz or how much of a mess sluggaz can make in close combat mean that Ork troop choices are excellent ways to kill light/medium infantry.

The Grotzookas only help further do the same thing that your troops are already doing. And if you're playing orks the "right" way, you've already got 4-6 troop slots filled. There's no reason to make something you're already strong at even stronger when you've got glaring weaknesses. Namely, the inability to kill hard targets at range. Rokkits are your most reliable way to deal with things you REALLY don't want to charge (Blood Talon dreads), pieplaters (demolishers, vindicators, etc), and quick targets (flyers, other fast, shooty vehicles etc).

I'd love to field grotzookaz, but I'd rather have the rokkits to help cover the glaring weakness that is present in almost every ork list.

I pretty much have just accepted that there isn't much in the Ork Codex that can crack open tanks at range. If you want to bust metal boxes as Orks, you basically have to charge them; anything else is, at best, a long shot. That being so, I don't really worry about having a lot of ranged AT, because I'm not going to have enough no matter what I do. Shooting is for softening up the enemy before I charge them, or wiping out a unit that has just hacked its way through a big mob of boyz and is weakened.

From that perspective, Grotzookas are GREAT, and I always run 3 of them if I'm running Kans at all. It is just an amazing amount of fun to drop 6 S6 blasts on a big IG blob, or a nicely bunched-up TH/SS Terminator squad, or a pack of Gaunts, or. . . well, basically anything. Whatever it is, Grotzookas splatter it all over the landscape.

matphat wrote:but with a BS of 3, S8, aren't these rokkits your "best" ranged anti-tank?

Your best anti-tank is your STR 10 dreads in melee

Your best weapon for all situations on the kan is the grotzooka. It can kill everything but medium and heavy tanks, and help whittle down an enemy deathstar before you charge it with you kans.

Agreed Jura, but I did say "ranged".

Maybe I'll mix it up a bit, with a few Rokkit Kans and a few Grotzooka Kans.
Just for fun.

I personally mix it up - three grotzookas and three Rokkit Launchas.

...unless I'm playing with my Grot Tanks, in which case I give all my grot tanks rokkit launchas (5 in a squadron), and give all my kanz grotzookas. Seems to work pretty damned well.

I enjoy Grotzookas because they are a fantastic middle-ranged option. Instead of a 1.5 average str8 hit ratio, I get 6 small blast templates at strength 6, that can fire on the move. Strong enough to hurt most infantry on 2's, and strong enough to frighten weaker vehicles.

I don't usually run Kans, but I find that Buggies and/or Deffkoptas are better at tank hunting due to speed and maneuverability. I would run Grotzookas if I had buggies or koptas to do my tank killing.

Alternatively, I like to take Boomwagons and try to pop tanks. When they hit, they can do some damage.

You need shoot down tanks you can not wait for cc, expect you will definitely get into cc and rely on cc doing the damage.

rockets are pretty much the only source of ranged antitank, st8 is important so Lootas while good do not quite fit the bill. Then kanz are one of the few sources of rockets.
Rocket kanz are just more important however awesome the grotzookas.

A rokkitless army is likely to have problems. Personally i'd only have all grotzooka kanz if I had plenty of rokkits elsewhere in my army.

I played against a BA deepstrike heavy army not long ago.

i ran 3 squadrons of Kans, One with skorchas, one with Rokkits and one with Grotzookas.

The Skorchas spent the entire game slowly killing off a Death Company unit.

The Rokkits spent their time pinging fireworks off a Landraider all game...

The Grotzookas singlehandedly wiped out 4 deep striking units at a rate of one a turn, turns 2-5.

Zookas are awesome for cracking clumps and ok for light transport killing (AV 10 really..)

For tankhunting, a Deffrolla is your friend, as Ork gunnery tops out at S 8 (reliable.. we can top it unreliably ) and won't hit most of the time anyway. Close combat is pretty much our only good option against AV 12 or better.

If an ork army spends time trying to down a raider of course it'll roll over.

Deepstriking land raider? nice
Raider in a jump pack list? nice

If you have Kanz, your won't have deff rollas, so what's the point of advising it in a thread about kan loadouts?

Personally, I always have one squad of grotzookas, because they are pretty much good at killing anything. The ability to pretty much take down any infantry unit combined with a discount when compared to rokkits makes them a pretty decent sidegrade. I wouldn't field all grotzookas though, there are only so many good target for them.

In the past, I was a huge proponent of Zookas; however, more and more I find myself using rokkits over them. The reason is simple, I already have 80 shoota boys that ar effective against the same targets as the Zookas.

Also, as Mech became the standard for 5th, I found that I wanted more Rokkits than my buggies could offer. So, I started running pure Rokkit Kans, along with my Lootas and Rokkit buggies. Now, Mech is no worry for my boys at all. Sure, my boys may be forced to footslog accoss the table, but thanks to my Kans, Koptas, and Lootas, so do all of my opponent's units, and my list is designed to footslog

I use 2 grotzookas and a big shoota in my Kann squads.
The reason I do this is because

1. It makes them less threatening, so they are less likely to get shot, giving a longer walking cover save.
2. If they aren't getting shot, they will get to shoot more on the way in
3. Boyz cannot be shaken or stunned, I'll give the boy squads rokkits
4. There is a sweet turn or two where the boyz can shoot rokkits at transports and then the kanns can fire grotzookas, and the shoota's are out of range of the unit.
5. Grotzookas will force people to spread out, which can help when you charge in.

Jidmah wrote:If you have Kanz, your won't have deff rollas, so what's the point of advising it in a thread about kan loadouts?

Personally, I always have one squad of grotzookas, because they are pretty much good at killing anything. The ability to pretty much take down any infantry unit combined with a discount when compared to rokkits makes them a pretty decent sidegrade. I wouldn't field all grotzookas though, there are only so many good target for them.

Because not everyone believes they are mutually exclusive? Kan wall is not the only way to run Kanz you know

I was pointing out that CC is our best reliable anti-armour option EXCEPT for Deffrollas.

Ascalam wrote:Because not everyone believes they are mutually exclusive? Kan wall is not the only way to run Kanz you know

I was pointing out that CC is our best reliable anti-armour option EXCEPT for Deffrollas.

If you are fielding kanz and battlewagons in one list, you migh as well mix grotzookaz, rokkits and skorchas in every unit of kanz. Because nothing forces you to equip them all the same. It's still bad list building.

If you "believe" that kanz and wagon go well together, that's fine with me. I'm not going to argue your religional believes either.

I've won tournaments with kanz in other builds than Kan wall, supporting BW

The Kan units are equipped with the same weapon per unit, and each is attached to a shooty BW as fire support. They march forward as the BW rolls and shoots, mopping up any annoying infantry nearby (who usually are toting melta..) with Grotzookas and Skorchas or engaging units that are trying to get to the BW in CC to tie them up. They generally don't stick with the BW for the whole game, but they do a pretty efficient job of watchdog, usually. The Nob BW's tend to survive well enough for my purposes.

Not bad list building, just not the way you prefer to build yours, dude

Apparently someone fielding Zzap guns and Nob bikers also placed really good in the 3++ tournament. Zzapguns must be awesome.

How is a shooty bw rolling forward and shooting? Unless you call a single big shoota/rokkit and a small blast shooty, that wagon isn't going anywhere if you want it to be shooting. Move 1" and you are down to 1 weapon and defensives. If the bw is fieled as heavy support kanz are more mobile, more shooty and cheaper. If fielded as troops, boyz are more mobile and shootier, if fielded as elite lootaz are way better at shooting stuff up. In any case, taking that BW was a waste of points.

As I said, if you prefer to use that BW, that's fine. But it's still not a sub-optimal choice.

If it works for them, then yes, they are. Maybe he always rolls high with Zapp Gunz

Shooty Battlewagon- Kannonwagon, with 4 RL, loaded up nobz with TL shootas/other kombiweapons

It rolls forward firing the Kannon at 6'' a round, once in range. The kannon cracks nearby vehicles, preferably transports whose crew the shootanobz and the kanz accompanying the BW then gleefully blow apart with grotzookas and shootafire. If a tank needs to die it halts and opens up with 4 rokkits and a kannon.

The Kanz provide mobile cover for the BW without having to rely on KFF, allowing a different HQ choice to be taken, or a KFF if i feel like it, which ups the resiliency of the BW and the Kanz.

If the grouping isn't in range the Kanz can run, and the BW can roll the distance they can tool along at, depending on the run roll.

If the Kanz are busy, and the BW IS in range of something else it can fire off all its rokkits and it's kannon at the target, probably blowing it open (assuming it's not a LR and leaving it's passengers exposed for the shootanobz if it had any.

If the Nobs are packing kombirokkits they can volley another vehicle or tough unit instead. I've had games where the Kanz downed one LR. the Nobz crippled another and the BW a third, in one turn

Using suboptimal choices (as you consider them) effectively is not bad listbuilding. They work well together, for me. They make more than the sum of their parts.

I've won more games with this setup against some of the cheesiest lists out there than I have with Kan wall or Battlewagon Bash, as people have learned how to beat those For me this is more optimal than those netlists are

If it doesn't work for you, feel free to stick to the few 'optimal build' netlists. It works better for me than the math-hammered ones.

A question: Would you take a list you know works well for you, or take a supposedly better list, that doesn't?

Ascalam wrote:Using suboptimal choices (as you consider them) effectively is not bad listbuilding.

Uh, yes it is?
Picking units = list building
Using units = generalship
Two different worlds.

They work well together, for me. They make more than the sum of their parts.

I've won more games with this setup against some of the cheesiest lists out there than I have with Kan wall or Battlewagon Bash, as people have learned how to beat those For me this is more optimal than those netlists are

Changes nothing about the fact that you pay 170 points for a kannon that moves 6" a turn. Why not use kannons right away? Lootaz? Tank bustas? More kanz? A boyz mob with rokkits? All those will provide you with similar mobility and more offensive power.
A single battlewagon doesn't add to target saturation (except against multi-meltas maybe) while it yells "Shoot me!" at any lance and railgun, can't assault anything and can be turned to dust by a single shot. Shooty battlewagons aren't that bad, but if you use them, why mix them with another theme which provides no synergy at all?
You even had to take a unit of nobz to get it, what are they doing in the meantime? I'd argue that for your purposes a unit of tank bustas would be way superior. The only thing you'd be losing is AV12(14 is unlikely in the middle of the board), but you gain a lot of rokkits, wounds and great combat ability. And you can't exactly argue cheesiness on tankbustaz.

If it doesn't work for you, feel free to stick to the few 'optimal build' netlists. It works better for me than the math-hammered ones.

Oh, the killer argument "netlist", you have won the discussion
I've observed, played and read battle reports about dozens of games with battlewagons and kanz involved. You always get the same two patterns, even if the ork player is winning:
A) The ork player rushes ahead. He either almost gets his green but handed, and maybe kanz arrive in time to save the day(many kanz), or the fighting is raging on one side of the board with some kanz doing nothing but moving and running for most of the game(few kanz).
B) The ork player is playing gorkamorka style, moving his battlewagon slowly with the kanz or holding them back entirely, completely wasting all movement potential he has paid for. If no killkannons are involved, he is only handicapping himself by a few points, so a decent player can compensate for that. Reflective players usually realize that they are kind of fighting an uphill battle, but can't pinpoint why.

This is all taken from experience, so you can stop throwing garlic and crucifixes at your calculator now.

A question: Would you take a list you know works well for you, or take a supposedly better list, that doesn't?

See, that's the point. It works well for you. You advised it would work for everyone.
What I'm advising and what I'm actually playing are two different things. Before a (non-tournament) game I usually have some stuff in mind I want to play (a Biker Warboss, tank bustas, a big unit of koptaz) and build an army around it. I still tell people to stay away from kopta quintets like they are the plague, even if they do work for me - just because my opponent are oblivious to their weaknesses, doesn't mean yours are.
Same for that random battlewagon in a footslogging list. You are a great veteran player, and you probably know what to exepect from your opponents. If your opponent only know how to fight certain patterns, good for you. However, most of my regular opponent are pretty good at identifing threats and how to take them down, so either that battlewagon is not dangerous to them, or gone by turn two. Killing a single battlewagon is not hard at all, cover or not.

Edit for morning coffee: I'm more pleasant after a jug or two..


The point of the build for me is a synergy:

Battlewagon protects Nobz inside it and kills vehicle or infantry threats/weakens units for the Nobz to charge if need be

Kanz protect the BW as mobile cover and soften up units that the BW unshells or that might damage either the BW or the Kanz. They can be used to engage annoyingly tough units (sacrificially if need be) to allow the BW to get to where it wants to.

Nobs gun down infantry threats, possible vehicle ones if they are rokkit equipped, and can charge from the BW as needed.


I normally run 3 elite BW with nob cargo, with 9 Kanz as heavy support to watchdog them.

I've also used the Kanz as minders for deffdredds, or as mobile cover and support for tankbustas (they crack a transport and the Grotzookas do the rest...)


On it's own it may not look points efficient, but it wins me battles more often than Kan wall. It might not work for you, but it might be worth a try for someone else. I'm not saying it's mathematically perfect, but that it's another way to run Kanz that works That was my claim, after all, that Kan Wall wasn't the only way to run Kanz

Kan wall doesn't work for everyone, after all, no matter how points efficient it is


I've been playing orks for 24 years. I've tried pretty much every tactic/list I can for orks, and for the current codex this is the one that has served me best with Kanz.

Kan wall is a netlist, whether you like that or not. Someone figured it out, and put it on the net. Others have tweaked it to the current efficient state. Doesn't stop you using it, but people have come to expect it from ork players, and plan accordingly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum:

You asked why I didn't use lootas, Kannon, tankbustas or a boyz mob with rokkits.

I rarely run boyz mobs with rokkits, beacause they will at best have 3, and will hit with one. It will then fail to do squat.

I run 3 sets of 3 kans, so kannon aren't available as a slot. I also dislike running artillery units as support for my BW's because one solid hit with a blast template makes them run for the hills,and their range is limited, even is their accuracy is average rather than lousy. I do occasionally drop one BW and the Kanz accompanying it to run a unit of lobbas for fire support against enemies that don't go for meching up or power armour.

Lootas have similar issues. One good hit (or a bunch of smaller ones) and the unit is high-tailing it, unable to fire, unlikely to regroup- wasted. A small unit has little punch, and a bigger one is too tempting a target to let live more than one round. I do use lootas, but not with this list.

Tankbustas are hamstrung by their rules. I want to be able to choose what to nail with my cargo, not have them forced to fire at a threat that the kanz or BW have already neutralised by stunning it, or popping the more dangerous guns off of it. Tankbusters suck in assault, except against tanks, and don't have the durability of a Nobz squad if i feel the need to pile out of the BW and assault something.

Tankbustas cannot be make troops, either, but with a warboss/Ghaz i can make the nobz squads and their BW's troops slots, allowing them to score from inside the tank. I often run one as a troops slot, with a kff mek as the other hq, providing the BWs (if close enough) and accompanying Kanz their 4+ KFF

I do run boyz mobs along with this list sometimes, if points allow. The BW's are the core of the list, with other elements to support them.

Ascalam wrote:Edit for morning coffee: I'm more pleasant after a jug or two..


The point of the build for me is a synergy:

Battlewagon protects Nobz inside it and kills vehicle or infantry threats/weakens units for the Nobz to charge if need be

Kanz protect the BW as mobile cover and soften up units that the BW unshells or that might damage either the BW or the Kanz. They can be used to engage annoyingly tough units (sacrificially if need be) to allow the BW to get to where it wants to.

Nobs gun down infantry threats, possible vehicle ones if they are rokkit equipped, and can charge from the BW as needed.


I normally run 3 elite BW with nob cargo, with 9 Kanz as heavy support to watchdog them.

I've also used the Kanz as minders for deffdredds, or as mobile cover and support for tankbustas (they crack a transport and the Grotzookas do the rest...)


On it's own it may not look points efficient, but it wins me battles more often than Kan wall. It might not work for you, but it might be worth a try for someone else. I'm not saying it's mathematically perfect, but that it's another way to run Kanz that works That was my claim, after all, that Kan Wall wasn't the only way to run Kanz

Kan wall doesn't work for everyone, after all, no matter how points efficient it is


I've been playing orks for 24 years. I've tried pretty much every tactic/list I can for orks, and for the current codex this is the one that has served me best with Kanz.

Kan wall is a netlist, whether you like that or not. Someone figured it out, and put it on the net. Others have tweaked it to the current efficient state. Doesn't stop you using it, but people have come to expect it from ork players, and plan accordingly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum:

You asked why I didn't use lootas, Kannon, tankbustas or a boyz mob with rokkits.

I rarely run boyz mobs with rokkits, beacause they will at best have 3, and will hit with one. It will then fail to do squat.

I run 3 sets of 3 kans, so kannon aren't available as a slot. I also dislike running artillery units as support for my BW's because one solid hit with a blast template makes them run for the hills,and their range is limited, even is their accuracy is average rather than lousy. I do occasionally drop one BW and the Kanz accompanying it to run a unit of lobbas for fire support against enemies that don't go for meching up or power armour.

Lootas have similar issues. One good hit (or a bunch of smaller ones) and the unit is high-tailing it, unable to fire, unlikely to regroup- wasted. A small unit has little punch, and a bigger one is too tempting a target to let live more than one round. I do use lootas, but not with this list.

Tankbustas are hamstrung by their rules. I want to be able to choose what to nail with my cargo, not have them forced to fire at a threat that the kanz or BW have already neutralised by stunning it, or popping the more dangerous guns off of it. Tankbusters suck in assault, except against tanks, and don't have the durability of a Nobz squad if i feel the need to pile out of the BW and assault something.

Tankbustas cannot be make troops, either, but with a warboss/Ghaz i can make the nobz squads and their BW's troops slots, allowing them to score from inside the tank. I often run one as a troops slot, with a kff mek as the other hq, providing the BWs (if close enough) and accompanying Kanz their 4+ KFF

I do run boyz mobs along with this list sometimes, if points allow. The BW's are the core of the list, with other elements to support them.

I typed a long, thorough response, and then some setup rebooted my browser. This even happens to people who earn their miniatures by programming computers

I don't have the time to write everything again(sorry :( ), so a quick retype from memory:
- What your kanz can do, almost any other unit could do, too. About anything in the FA slot could do the same without slowing down the battlewagons to 6".
- I don't see what your nobz/battlewagon do for your kanz. It's only synergy if they help each other. Your tank bustas example would be true synergy.
- How many points are your three nob units? I I'd like to give your army style a spin in one of my next games.
- WH40k doesn't really have netlists. A Kan wall is an archetype of an army, which includes nine kanz, boyz and lootaz. People add kommandoz, buggies, suicide koptaz or whatever to their lists, without leaving the concept of a kan wall. Coming from magic tournaments where I have experienced 51/64 players playing the exact same 60 cards, I can't really acknowledge 40k archetypes as "netlists".
- If two equally good players meet, the one with the more optimized list will most likely win. If you are playing a better player (which is what new players usually do) you might need the edge of an optimized list do have a chance at winning at all. "Stealing" a list you can't play well does not provide that edge.
- I'm not trying to push you towards a kan wall (nor towards battlewagon bash) - actually my stance on orks is that you can pretty much field all orks units in any combination and do well with them, as long as you obey three simple rules: "Don't mix fast and slow", "Boyz before toyz" and "Don't make something mediocre at what it sucks at, if you could make it awesome at what it's good at instead". You picked a fast unit (battlewagon) and use it as a slow unit, and GW made speed cost a lot of points. That's all I'm saying, though you are missing a little in the "boyz before toyz" department, too

Jidmah wrote:

Ascalam wrote:Edit for morning coffee: I'm more pleasant after a jug or two..


The point of the build for me is a synergy:

Battlewagon protects Nobz inside it and kills vehicle or infantry threats/weakens units for the Nobz to charge if need be

Kanz protect the BW as mobile cover and soften up units that the BW unshells or that might damage either the BW or the Kanz. They can be used to engage annoyingly tough units (sacrificially if need be) to allow the BW to get to where it wants to.

Nobs gun down infantry threats, possible vehicle ones if they are rokkit equipped, and can charge from the BW as needed.


I normally run 3 elite BW with nob cargo, with 9 Kanz as heavy support to watchdog them.

I've also used the Kanz as minders for deffdredds, or as mobile cover and support for tankbustas (they crack a transport and the Grotzookas do the rest...)


On it's own it may not look points efficient, but it wins me battles more often than Kan wall. It might not work for you, but it might be worth a try for someone else. I'm not saying it's mathematically perfect, but that it's another way to run Kanz that works That was my claim, after all, that Kan Wall wasn't the only way to run Kanz

Kan wall doesn't work for everyone, after all, no matter how points efficient it is


I've been playing orks for 24 years. I've tried pretty much every tactic/list I can for orks, and for the current codex this is the one that has served me best with Kanz.

Kan wall is a netlist, whether you like that or not. Someone figured it out, and put it on the net. Others have tweaked it to the current efficient state. Doesn't stop you using it, but people have come to expect it from ork players, and plan accordingly.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Addendum:

You asked why I didn't use lootas, Kannon, tankbustas or a boyz mob with rokkits.

I rarely run boyz mobs with rokkits, beacause they will at best have 3, and will hit with one. It will then fail to do squat.

I run 3 sets of 3 kans, so kannon aren't available as a slot. I also dislike running artillery units as support for my BW's because one solid hit with a blast template makes them run for the hills,and their range is limited, even is their accuracy is average rather than lousy. I do occasionally drop one BW and the Kanz accompanying it to run a unit of lobbas for fire support against enemies that don't go for meching up or power armour.

Lootas have similar issues. One good hit (or a bunch of smaller ones) and the unit is high-tailing it, unable to fire, unlikely to regroup- wasted. A small unit has little punch, and a bigger one is too tempting a target to let live more than one round. I do use lootas, but not with this list.

Tankbustas are hamstrung by their rules. I want to be able to choose what to nail with my cargo, not have them forced to fire at a threat that the kanz or BW have already neutralised by stunning it, or popping the more dangerous guns off of it. Tankbusters suck in assault, except against tanks, and don't have the durability of a Nobz squad if i feel the need to pile out of the BW and assault something.

Tankbustas cannot be make troops, either, but with a warboss/Ghaz i can make the nobz squads and their BW's troops slots, allowing them to score from inside the tank. I often run one as a troops slot, with a kff mek as the other hq, providing the BWs (if close enough) and accompanying Kanz their 4+ KFF

I do run boyz mobs along with this list sometimes, if points allow. The BW's are the core of the list, with other elements to support them.

I typed a long, thorough response, and then some setup rebooted my browser. This even happens to people who earn their miniatures by programming computers

I don't have the time to write everything again(sorry :( ), so a quick retype from memory:
- What your kanz can do, almost any other unit could do, too. About anything in the FA slot could do the same without slowing down the battlewagons to 6".
- I don't see what your nobz/battlewagon do for your kanz. It's only synergy if they help each other. Your tank bustas example would be true synergy.
- How many points are your three nob units? I I'd like to give your army style a spin in one of my next games.
- WH40k doesn't really have netlists. A Kan wall is an archetype of an army, which includes nine kanz, boyz and lootaz. People add kommandoz, buggies, suicide koptaz or whatever to their lists, without leaving the concept of a kan wall. Coming from magic tournaments where I have experienced 51/64 players playing the exact same 60 cards, I can't really acknowledge 40k archetypes as "netlists".
- If two equally good players meet, the one with the more optimized list will most likely win. If you are playing a better player (which is what new players usually do) you might need the edge of an optimized list do have a chance at winning at all. "Stealing" a list you can't play well does not provide that edge.
- I'm not trying to push you towards a kan wall (nor towards battlewagon bash) - actually my stance on orks is that you can pretty much field all orks units in any combination and do well with them, as long as you obey three simple rules: "Don't mix fast and slow", "Boyz before toyz" and "Don't make something mediocre at what it sucks at, if you could make it awesome at what it's good at instead". You picked a fast unit (battlewagon) and use it as a slow unit, and GW made speed cost a lot of points. That's all I'm saying, though you are missing a little in the "boyz before toyz" department, too

Aint computers grand

Possibly. Buggies can't act as mobile cover for the BW (and are open topped AV 10, so fragile), though they do carry heavy weapons. Deffkoptas are too tall (unless you have the tiny flying base pins) to do the mobile cover thing, but carry heavy weapons. They are a bit fragile though, as they are prone to bugging out when they take damage (they also suck in CC). Bikers are too short to provide cover, and their guns are to weak to provide much heavy firepower, though they excel at mowing down light infantry. I've used them to screen BW's and kill the contents of transports the BW kills before, but i prefer Kanz for their durability, Stormboyz are a non-starter there. Fragile, lousy in CC and unpredicatible in motion, killing themselves as they move. If they were cheaper they might make a cover screen, but they have no heavy weapons barring a nob'z PK, and are an overpriced undersized boyz mob in CC)

Remember that the idea behind the build is that the Kanz and BW carry heavy weapons to take out things that get in the way and act the Kanz act as mobile cover and fire support. I don't think anything else in the codex has the same mix of CC strength/durability and shooting power, and is large anough to be walking cover, barring a deff dredd (which can't cover as much and is a worse shot). The kanz are mainly on the short end of the stick, as bullet stops and as obstacle removers/tarpits. They help out the BW and Nobz plenty with fire support and tying up units. Last time i ran this list (I don't always run it) the Kanz tied up and obliterated a BA Death Company that was heading for my Nobz and the BW with malice aforethought, allowing the BW and the nobz to take out two other units.


My Nobz units are usually pretty basic. Perhaps 350- 400 pts tops (couple of PKs, Combiweapons, BP, maybe a Painboy if i'm feeling extravagant). You could run the same with 3 nobz, dismount them and put 20 shootaboyz in there, but i prefer the nobz for their cc power and knomb-weapon options.

True enough, i suppose. Archetype might be the better term, though i get tired of fighting the exact same BA or GK lists over and over (carbon copies of a list on the net. Those are more like Netlists.) I used to play Magic, but these days no way. I'll agree on that.

Stealing a list that someone has worked out the optimal balance for, and reading a 'how to play this list' article thoroughly can give you an edge

Apologies for my mini-rant on netlists, but i feel that writing a list should involve more thought than hitting up the armylist section for the latest hot list. I get tired of the same exact armies over and over again, made from the most OP crap in the codex, spammed. I need to drink more coffee before i post sometimes, as without it i am one surly bear.

This list is boyz light, unless i have the points to add some. I consider BW's to be a slow unit if they are intended as a shooting vehicle though. At top speed they can't fire, and neither can those inside. At the speeds at which the guns on the BW can be used and the Nobz can fire out the Kanz work just fine for me.

Give it a try, you might like it.

If you don't, that's fine too

Ascalam wrote:Aint computers grand

Possibly. Buggies can't act as mobile cover for the BW (and are open topped AV 10, so fragile), though they do carry heavy weapons. Deffkoptas are too tall (unless you have the tiny flying base pins) to do the mobile cover thing, but carry heavy weapons. They are a bit fragile though, as they are prone to bugging out when they take damage (they also suck in CC). Bikers are too short to provide cover, and their guns are to weak to provide much heavy firepower, though they excel at mowing down light infantry. I've used them to screen BW's and kill the contents of transports the BW kills before, but i prefer Kanz for their durability, Stormboyz are a non-starter there. Fragile, lousy in CC and unpredicatible in motion, killing themselves as they move. If they were cheaper they might make a cover screen, but they have no heavy weapons barring a nob'z PK, and are an overpriced undersized boyz mob in CC)

If were talking about a AOBR kopta, those are great for giving cover to BWs. I have a long record of parking them in the way of fire prisms and multi-meltas If they are turned sideways and about 3-4" away from the BW (to prevent skimmers jumping in between) there is no problem claiming cover from them. The buggies variant would of course require a KFF mek, but shouldn't he be in all ork lists anyways?

Remember that the idea behind the build is that the Kanz and BW carry heavy weapons to take out things that get in the way and act the Kanz act as mobile cover and fire support. I don't think anything else in the codex has the same mix of CC strength/durability and shooting power, and is large anough to be walking cover, barring a deff dredd (which can't cover as much and is a worse shot). The kanz are mainly on the short end of the stick, as bullet stops and as obstacle removers/tarpits. They help out the BW and Nobz plenty with fire support and tying up units. Last time i ran this list (I don't always run it) the Kanz tied up and obliterated a BA Death Company that was heading for my Nobz and the BW with malice aforethought, allowing the BW and the nobz to take out two other units.

Those kanz are helping everyone, of course. They are heavy support after all
Im just not seeing the nobz/bw helping the kanz in any way. There are few things I would charge nobz into that can't be handled by kanz, and a deff rolla isn't much different from their DCCW.

My Nobz units are usually pretty basic. Perhaps 350- 400 pts tops (couple of PKs, Combiweapons, BP, maybe a Painboy if i'm feeling extravagant). You could run the same with 3 nobz, dismount them and put 20 shootaboyz in there, but i prefer the nobz for their cc power and knomb-weapon options.

Good to know. I would probably have a unit of MANz along them.

True enough, i suppose. Archetype might be the better term, though i get tired of fighting the exact same BA or GK lists over and over (carbon copies of a list on the net. Those are more like Netlists.) I used to play Magic, but these days no way. I'll agree on that.

Stealing a list that someone has worked out the optimal balance for, and reading a 'how to play this list' article thoroughly can give you an edge

Don't know - a friend of mine picked up IG and started reading a lot about power blobs, melta cavalry, leaf blowers et all(he is the kind of guy who read all codices and their corresponding strategies before buying a single model). He did quite bad with it, for once because the army just didn't fit his style, and second because even the best strategy blog doesn't give you all the detail. More often than not, the authors see things as a given, but especially for unexperienced players, they are not. One thing (especially for orks) is spacing out models. At my LGS I often hear people telling me that they killed 12 orks with a single blast - that's something that should never, ever happen, even if you got caught with your pants down (ie. after assaulting a vehicle).
His latest list (before he moved on to necrons) contained rough riders, those leman russes with the vindicator gun(executioners?) and ratlings. He was doing a lot better with that than with the netlists he played before.

Apologies for my mini-rant on netlists, but i feel that writing a list should involve more thought than hitting up the armylist section for the latest hot list. I get tired of the same exact armies over and over again, made from the most OP crap in the codex, spammed. I need to drink more coffee before i post sometimes, as without it i am one surly bear.

I know, right? After drinking my first coffee in the office I sometimes wonder how the hell I got there - and I've got an one hour to drive every morning.

This list is boyz light, unless i have the points to add some. I consider BW's to be a slow unit if they are intended as a shooting vehicle though. At top speed they can't fire, and neither can those inside. At the speeds at which the guns on the BW can be used and the Nobz can fire out the Kanz work just fine for me.

Give it a try, you might like it.

If you don't, that's fine too

Of course I wouldn't just copy your idea, that would be netlisting, wouldn't it?
I'll probably do something like using two kff meks, and two deff dreads to go with nine kanz and tripple nobz. I'll just have to think about a way to catpure objectives... maybe grot horde from reserve?
Not done with that thought process though.

I have several of the older fugly koptas also, but my AOBR koptas are all on the tall flight stands. Whether they grant cover is down to who i play, as some folk insist that they don't cover enough.

I might give the list a try with Koptas, as more of a shoot-and-scoot approach, but they have durability/LD issues.

*shrug* One reason the Kanz are there to keep units away from the BW and Nobz, so that the BW/Nobz can get to the juicy target behind the screen. The deffrolla is as good at the DCCW, yes, but if the Kanz engage a unit screening a tank the BW can then get to the tank, as the screen are unceremoniously pulled away from the tank they are hiding.

This is hilarious to do with tau, with a Hammerhead screened by another unit

They also make good tarpits for annoying units trying to get to the BW, allowing it to zoom off an express-deliver the nobz/ram stuff elsewhere. Even with their lousy WS, they can still tie up a nasty deathstar or other unit for a bit, allowing the BW to escape/hit another unit while the Kanz are taking the beating. Some very nasty units VS tanks in CC (tankbustas for example) can still take a long time to down a trio of Kanz, as attaching grenades isn't that easy, and they are too weak to hurt the Kanz directly.


Manz would work too. You'd sacrifice firepower (as you'd have to take less unless the game is hight pts) but gain durability.

I find that a list you've thought out yourself works best, especially as it will fit your playstyle. This list, for example, works great for me. Randomjoe57 would probably find it harder to use.

There are some disgustingly OP-spammy netlists out there though that are easy to use. A friend is far too fond oof his 4 JOTWW and 3 maxed Longfangs SW's, for example...

I need about twice as much caffiene in my system as blood to function at peak efficiency. If i'm down to a 50/50 ratio or below i'm not the best company

You could add a KFF mek to each BW, nd it would increase the durability of the group, especially if you kept the third BW close to take advantage of the KFF.

A grot horde following in their wake would be cheap, scoring, and as long as one member of each unit is within 6'' of the KFF wagons suprisingly durable. No-one would be aiming at the grots too much with 2 dreads, 9 kanz and three BW's rolling along in front of them, and the KFF mek can always join a grot mob if his ride and buddies are killed.