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hey, quick question

I had a squad with a techmarine attached. That squad wanted to move away to assault someone, while my techie wanted to fire his OSR. I looked in the BRB and all I could see were examples with the IC moving to join a stationary unit (couldnt shoot it), joining a unit which has GTG (goes to ground, therefore can't shoot), and a few other restrictions (not joining while in combat, falling back, etc). I didn't see anything which really addressed the unit moving off. I'm not used to having ICs (I play guard with no Lord Commissars or priests normally) and so I wasn't sure, neither was my brother who I was playing.

We ended up deciding that he could shoot, because he wasn't the one moving we figured.

Anyway so yeah, I'm assuming someone in the great wide internet has come across this and solved it before?

By the rules, the techmarine has to move away from the the squad. So he can move 0.000001" while the squad moves off, but he has moved. And all the restrictions on shooting and moving therefore apply.

You;ll find it on pg 48, 3rd bullet on the right.

kmdl1066 wrote:By the rules, the techmarine has to move away from the the squad. So he can move 0.000001" while the squad moves off, but he has moved. And all the restrictions on shooting and moving therefore apply.

You;ll find it on pg 48, 3rd bullet on the right.

That is not totally true.

The IC can move away, or the unit can move away.

P.48 right column, last bullet point.

DeathReaper wrote:

kmdl1066 wrote:
P.48 right column, last bullet point.

This??

If an independent character joins a unit that has gone to ground, he immediately goes to ground as well, and vice versa. He may not leave as long as his unit has gone to ground.

Not sure what that has to do with it but it is the last bullet point in the right column of that page.

If an independent character joins a unit that has gone to ground, he immediately goes to ground as well, and vice versa.

This says that IC's join units, and that units can join IC's as well.

The IC does not have to move to join or leave a unit, he simply has to be more than 2 inches away at the end of the movement phase.

And yet the sentence quoted only talks about the IC joining the unit or the IC leaving the unit, nothing says that it can happen with the unit joining or leaving the IC, so I still don't see whatever correlation you're trying to draw here. I don't see whatever bit you're saying says that a unit can join an IC? All that bullet says is that an IC can join a unit that has already gone to ground during the preceding enemy turn, and that if he does so, he is also GTG.

don_mondo wrote:And yet the sentence quoted only talks about the IC joining the unit or the IC leaving the unit, nothing says that it can happen with the unit joining or leaving the IC, so I still don't see whatever correlation you're trying to draw here. I don't see whatever bit you're saying says that a unit can join an IC? All that bullet says is that an IC can join a unit that has already gone to ground during the preceding enemy turn, and that if he does so, he is also GTG.

You're missing the "and vice versa."

Vice Versa would mean that the IC has GTG and the unit joins him - because an IC that has GTG cannot move, and therefore cannot join a unit.

The vice versa applies to being pinned, but yes, that does seem to imply that a unit can join a pinned IC.

Either way, the UNIT has moved while the IC was attached therefore the IC has to fire as moved.

don_mondo wrote:The vice versa applies to being pinned, but yes, that does seem to imply that a unit can join a pinned IC.

The word pinned doesn't exist in that bullet point - could you explain why you're coming to that conclusion?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

VoxDei wrote:Either way, the UNIT has moved while the IC was attached therefore the IC has to fire as moved.

That I agree with.

In order to join a squad, someone has to move.

If any model in a unit has moved, the entire unit counts as moving.

Doesn't matter if the unit moved to him or he moved to the unit, everyone counts as moving since they're all the same unit now and at least one model in the unit has moved.

rigeld2 wrote:

don_mondo wrote:The vice versa applies to being pinned, but yes, that does seem to imply that a unit can join a pinned IC.

The word pinned doesn't exist in that bullet point - could you explain why you're coming to that conclusion?
.

Pinned, GTG, same thing. And GTG is in the sentence, is it not?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lotus wrote:In order to join a squad, someone has to move.

If any model in a unit has moved, the entire unit counts as moving.

Doesn't matter if the unit moved to him or he moved to the unit, everyone counts as moving since they're all the same unit now and at least one model in the unit has moved.

Ummm, no. If an IC moves and joins a unit that has not moved and the unit does not move, the unit counts as stationary for shooting. Fourt bullet point on page 48:

If an independent character moves and joins or leaves a unit that did not move, the character counts as having moved in the ensuing Shooting phase, but the unit does not.

don_mondo wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

don_mondo wrote:The vice versa applies to being pinned, but yes, that does seem to imply that a unit can join a pinned IC.

The word pinned doesn't exist in that bullet point - could you explain why you're coming to that conclusion?

Pinned, GTG, same thing. And GTG is in the sentence, is it not?

Yeah - sorry... I know that pinning makes you GTG but my brain keeps the two separate.
I guess I don't understand what you meant by "The vice versa applies to being pinned" though..

The sentence structure is such that the 'vice versa' within the sentence applies to the GTG, not to whether or not an IC can join a unit or a unit can join an IC. However, it does imply that a unit can join a GTG IC (and will automatically become GTG themselves).

don_mondo wrote:The sentence structure is such that the 'vice versa' within the sentence applies to the GTG, not to whether or not an IC can join a unit or a unit can join an IC. However, it does imply that a unit can join a GTG IC (and will automatically become GTG themselves).

Okay, I just misunderstood you earlier then. We're cool. \o/

don_mondo wrote:The sentence structure is such that the 'vice versa' within the sentence applies to the GTG, not to whether or not an IC can join a unit or a unit can join an IC. However, it does imply that a unit can join a GTG IC (and will automatically become GTG themselves).

Actually that is great evidence for a unit joining an IC.

So if the unit joins a stationary IC, the IC can fire a heavy weapon.

DeathReaper wrote:

don_mondo wrote:The sentence structure is such that the 'vice versa' within the sentence applies to the GTG, not to whether or not an IC can join a unit or a unit can join an IC. However, it does imply that a unit can join a GTG IC (and will automatically become GTG themselves).

Actually that is great evidence for a unit joining an IC.

So if the unit joins a stationary IC, the IC can fire a heavy weapon.

So based on this, if the unit leaves the IC is the IC considered stationary?

DeathReaper wrote:
Actually that is great evidence for a unit joining an IC.

So if the unit joins a stationary IC, the IC can fire a heavy weapon.

No because the unit has moved so the IC has to fire as moved.

DeathReaper wrote:

don_mondo wrote:The sentence structure is such that the 'vice versa' within the sentence applies to the GTG, not to whether or not an IC can join a unit or a unit can join an IC. However, it does imply that a unit can join a GTG IC (and will automatically become GTG themselves).

Actually that is great evidence for a unit joining an IC.

So if the unit joins a stationary IC, the IC can fire a heavy weapon.

I realize this may sound unnecessarily pedantic, but even if the unit moved and the IC remained stationary, it is the IC who joins the unit. Read the first bullet on page 48. Every single option has the character joining the unit. You don't join during the movement phase. Rather at the end of the movement phase the IC must join a unit if within 2".

The only provision we are given (that I can see) for an IC leaving a unit is bullet 3 on the right hand column of page 48. And that says that the IC has to move out of coherency. So the IC has to move. There is no option for the IC remaining stationary and the unit moving out of coherency with the IC that I can see,

VoxDei wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:
Actually that is great evidence for a unit joining an IC.

So if the unit joins a stationary IC, the IC can fire a heavy weapon.

No because the unit has moved so the IC has to fire as moved.

Not true, look at the 4th bullet point on Page 48, That details that the IC, if he moves and joins a unit, the unit is considered stationary but the IC counts as having moved.

If the IC does not move and the unit does, the IC is stationary and can fire a heavy weapon.

@KMDL: The IC joins the unit as long as he is within 2 inches of the unit at the end of the movement phase, either one can move, it does not always have to be the IC that moves.

Except the rules state that the IC must move to be within 2".

At best the "vice versa" gives implicit rules for units joining ICs, however the rules explicitly state that an IC moves to join a unit, and moves away to leave a unit. Hard to take an implicit reading in a minor section as being sufficient to override explicit statements

We are told that an IC has to move to join a unit (pg 48 bullet one) and has to move to leave a unit (pg 48 bullet 3 on the right). We are given specific instructions on what to do if the IC joins or leaves a unit that did not move (bullet 4 on the right). We are not given any instructions whatsoever on what to do if the IC did not move but the unit did.

On pg 67 we are given specific permission for an IC to remain embarked while a unit disembarks. Such specific permission would not be needed if a unit could normally leave a stationary IC. In fact, that paragraph concludes with "but then the characters can leave the unit as they move, as normal," once again reinforcing that "normal" is for the IC to move when leaving a unit.

Of course I am frequently wrong, and would welcome some rule or FAQ I've missed being highlighted. But I don't see how you can read page 48 and conclude anything except that an IC is going to count as moving whenever joining or leaving a unit.

AFAIK the only arguments supporting a unit can join/leave an IC is:
a. in regards to vehicles (which as kmd pointed out gives specific permission) and
2. The blurb about IC's joining units that have gone to ground, and vice versa (which granted is very confusing).

However, I (personally) don't know anyone who actually plays RAW regarding ICs joining and leaving units.

"vice versa" Explicitly says that if a unit has joined an IC that has GTG, then the unit Goes To Ground as well.

It is pretty convincing, and tells us that a unit can move to join an IC.

This is splitting hairs, but it says the unit can move to within 2" of an IC who has gone to ground. Then, at the end of the movement phase the IC will join the unit. And both will count as having gone to ground. And the IC will count as having moved, because the only way we are told an IC can join a unit is to move to join the unit. This moving to join a unit (even though no physical movement takes place) is not "of its own volition," so none of rules of going to ground are being broken.

Imagine this. An IC is within 2" of a unit at the beginning of the movement phase but not joined to the unit. (Maybe the unit hit and ran.) Neither move. Another unit moves to within 2" of the IC. By your interpretation, the IC would be forced to join with the unit that moved because they "moved to join the IC." But the IC could join with the unit that remained stationary. Whichever unit the IC joins will immediately go to ground.

Of course I happily let my opponent move units to join/leave an IC and count the IC as stationary. But then I happily allow many other things that are not RAW.

I am pretty sure you have to declare that you are joining or leaving unit/IC. It doesn't happen automatically. In fact I believe the rule says you need to leave them 2" from each other. So even if you are falling back in your movement phase, you cannot just put the squad 2" to an IC according to RAW.

I think this is one of those things where we are reading too much into the rules. IC leaving or joining is just like unit leaving or joining. Leave them be and play your game.

If an IC is not joining a unit it MUST remain more than 2" away. If this is not possible, (for example disembarking from a vehicle next to a unit the IC cannot join, after the vehicle has moved), the IC must be placed as far away as possible, while remaining within 2" of the access point.

DeathReaper wrote:"vice versa" Explicitly says that if a unit has joined an IC that has GTG, then the unit Goes To Ground as well.

It is pretty convincing, and tells us that a unit can move to join an IC.

I disagree. It tells us what happens if a unit moves to join an IC. But, that situation isn't actually possible. So, it's a totally meaningless rule.

(That said, I'm personally in favor of a house rule that allows units to move to an IC or away from an IC to join/split. But, it's just a house rule and not RAW.)

It says that if a unit moves and the IC is stationary(and had gone to ground) then the Unit will go to ground as well.

how more explicit can you get?