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Good morning,

So I started playing shortly after 5th edition came out and picked Guard. Have had fun with them, love blowing things up etc. My brother plays spacewolves and started at the same time. We've both stuck to one army until now.

He started talking about starting up a Chaos Daemon army because he liked the models etc. I started talking about doing Grey Knights as well for a change of pace. I already had a few demonhunter models from back when allying was stilled allowed and they're pretty sweet, right?

Anyways, long story short... he (as we expected) got dominated when we played a couple proxy games. No sweat, we expected demons to lose. We then play grey knights vs his space wolves and once again, total domination. I dont really want to get into a discussion about whether GK are overpowered or not but I can say that for my casual (small) group of people I know who play, grey knights are just too good. I need to pick another army.

So rather than pick another army and study their codex, "commit" again etc I was hoping to get some feedback from you guys on something interesting / different to play. Wanted to avoid super shooty since my guard already do that. I like the idea of space marines, tyranids and eldar. Dont like orks, tau or dark eldar. Dont know much about necrons honestly.

Some things I liked when reading / picking the GKs:

Durability of units. Im used to paper thin guardsmen, actually getting an armor save is awesome!
Dreadnoughts. Great model, great all arounder.
Lot of good generalists. Not sure if all marines are like this or if GK excels here. Good in close combat, good in shooting. Good durability. Good movement (deep striking terminators etc).
Can field armies without mucho vehicles (already done that with my guard, looking for more infantry here).

Any thoughts?
Thanks.

You might like tyranids, they can field monsters and hordes, with or without armor. If you want to have a legit army of 12 monstrous creatures and a unit of gaunts, you could. Conversely, you could just have warriors as troosp (3 wound guys) and all sorts of other nonsense.

If you want something more finesse, look to eldar. They are super specialists, and reward tactics and planning.

I get the feeling you want something that uses less units that die to wind blowing. GK is a good choice for that, but tyranids are too.

Chaos Deamons vs Tyranids would be an interesting matchup I think. Both are more close combat oriented with support shooting, no real vehicles to speak of for either army... and with Tyranids at least you have boatloads of options available especially with them getting new models (check the thread in news and rumors).

Um idk nids benefits are kinda lost when fighting daemons. MC ignore armor but daemons have invulns. Daemons like bloodletters, bloodthirsters, bloodcrushers etc all have power weapons and outside of zoanthropes and swarmlord in cc nids lack invulns. Bloodthirster with blessing of the bloodgod is rockin a 2++ vs most the heavy hitters of the nids because theyre psykers. lol

No no the invun only comes from psychic attacks and force weapons. MC CCW that aren't force weapons don't trigger the blessings bonus.

juraigamer wrote:No no the invun only comes from psychic attacks and force weapons. MC CCW that aren't force weapons don't trigger the blessings bonus.

Yea what are boneswords? Dooms abilities, swarmlords regen has to wound, etc. If you put a trygon or tervigon vs a bloodthirster he will destroy it in a turn. lol Nids are a horrid matchup vs daemons. lol

How about a themed army? Dark Eldar but rather than spamming vehicles go with a WWP with Beasts, Engines and Wracks led by haemonculi.

That will yield a close combat army based on FNP. The engines (kronos or talos) give you some hard hitting and beasts can be a real pain. You can field a couple of razorwings or trueborn squads to get the anti-tank you need.

Well so long as you don't use the doom of cheese or the swarmlord of hurr durr, there won't be a problem. The trygon and tervigon don't have to take boneswords, after all. Furthermore, boneswords aren't force weapons, oddly enough.

Raven Guard Armies are cool. I've always wanted to build a casual army out of them.... or use the BA codex to represent them...

What about csm? I don't think I've ever seen a CSM vs daemons battle. But I think they're on the same power-level.

Csm also fills your need for a good save, dreadnoughts (albeit crazy ones). And I think you'll appreciate some decent cc troops after having played guard.

Oh, and I've played Orks since third, and I'm considering picking 'em up fo roughly the same reasons as you. But focussing on the quality shooting part of CSM. Ork quantity of shooting is a sort pf quality, I know, but BS 4!

Good luck mate!
//Calle

Read the Dark Angels codex, and play a Deathwing army. Low model count, highly durable (Terminators as core..), can tale other marine units if you want...not played a lot now but still pretty good.

Thanks for all the replies

Nids are definitely a strong possibility, like the models. Seems hella expensive though, looked at some elite choices and they can be up to 25 per model, yikes! I guess some of these are huge models though so...

Am I going to feel as powerful playing straight up codex marines? I really do love the dreadnoughts and I know you can do some dreadnought shennanigans with master of the forge etc. (Im not worried about being super good, if you read my original post im worried about being TOO good hah).

Sounds like you'd actually like Marines an awful lot, especially if you like durable troops and dreadnoughts. Might get dull playing them against Space Wolves, but you could try Chaos Marines also. Get their half of Assault on Black Reach on eBay and start em up cheap. They're the definition of middle of the road codex, and are right in the middle of the power curve as they were in 4th edition.

Alternately, I will always suggest Orks to players who want second armies. You can build a mean army with them, a hilarious army with them, or both. They can also be started fairly cheaply via AoBR.

JRedbeard wrote:Some things I liked when reading / picking the GKs:

Durability of units. Im used to paper thin guardsmen, actually getting an armor save is awesome!
Dreadnoughts. Great model, great all arounder.
Lot of good generalists. Not sure if all marines are like this or if GK excels here. Good in close combat, good in shooting. Good durability. Good movement (deep striking terminators etc).
Can field armies without mucho vehicles (already done that with my guard, looking for more infantry here).

Any thoughts?
Thanks.

If you like GK and build a fun army. Warbands with GK back up is a lot of fun. Or Blood Angels, you might like them too, they can be a in your face army.

As for SW, really with Counter-Charge, 50% cancel Psi, and weapon squad with AP2-3 weapons vs. light vehicle GK should more them hold its own.

Draigo wrote:Um idk nids benefits are kinda lost when fighting daemons. MC ignore armor but daemons have invulns. Daemons like bloodletters, bloodthirsters, bloodcrushers etc all have power weapons and outside of zoanthropes and swarmlord in cc nids lack invulns. Bloodthirster with blessing of the bloodgod is rockin a 2++ vs most the heavy hitters of the nids because theyre psykers. lol

Boneswords arent Psychic powers or Force weapons. They are power weapons. So the 2++ does not work. Besides why would i spend on TMC's when swarms of critters with toxin sacs will kill just about anything in the Deamon arsenal.

a Bloodthirster with the 2++ is 255pts for that i can get 15 toxin sac Genestealers. They'll strike first and inflict 11 wounds on average, good luck saving 8 of those with a 4++ save

Carnifexes and Tyrants armed with Devourers and protected from assaults by Toxin sac equiped Termagaunts slaughter almost everything in the Daemon codex

Nids also have alot of Str 4-6 shooting. Volume of Shots and Cheap poisoned unit = dead Deamons.

Karnac wrote:

Draigo wrote:Um idk nids benefits are kinda lost when fighting daemons. MC ignore armor but daemons have invulns. Daemons like bloodletters, bloodthirsters, bloodcrushers etc all have power weapons and outside of zoanthropes and swarmlord in cc nids lack invulns. Bloodthirster with blessing of the bloodgod is rockin a 2++ vs most the heavy hitters of the nids because theyre psykers. lol

Boneswords arent Psychic powers or Force weapons. They are power weapons. So the 2++ does not work. Besides why would i spend on TMC's when swarms of critters with toxin sacs will kill just about anything in the Deamon arsenal.

a Bloodthirster with the 2++ is 255pts for that i can get 15 toxin sac Genestealers. They'll strike first and inflict 11 wounds on average, good luck saving 8 of those with a 4++ save

Carnifexes and Tyrants armed with Devourers and protected from assaults by Toxin sac equiped Termagaunts slaughter almost everything in the Daemon codex

Nids also have alot of Str 4-6 shooting. Volume of Shots and Cheap poisoned unit = dead Deamons.

So best case scenario you win not an original arguement but ok. There isn't much is the nids book that can stop 8 bloodcrushers with fateweaver. Thats not a best case thats fact. You will need a shooty nids list to fight baemons which isn't a tac list. I can list tailor too and slaughter nids since any would a khorne daemon does kills a bug. While the tzeentch daemons turn your fexes etc into chaos spawn. lol So no a lot of nids benefits are lost when having to tailor to play daemons or any army with a lot of pw.

Draigo wrote:
So best case scenario you win not an original arguement but ok. There isn't much is the nids book that can stop 8 bloodcrushers with fateweaver. Thats not a best case thats fact. You will need a shooty nids list to fight baemons which isn't a tac list. I can list tailor too and slaughter nids since any would a khorne daemon does kills a bug. While the tzeentch daemons turn your fexes etc into chaos spawn. lol So no a lot of nids benefits are lost when having to tailor to play daemons or any army with a lot of pw.

Tyranids most definately do not need to list tailor vs Daemons. Besides, I doubt the OP is looking to set-up the nastiest, most filthy WAAC's tourny style list so 8 'crushers + fatey are likely a pretty low priority! (especially considering the cost of buying that lot!) Tyranids excel at flinging tonnes of crap at you and forcing saves. Daemons have only 5+ invulns for the most part, so they do die in droves when the 'nids attack in bulk.

Khorne units outside of hounds are overkill vs 'nids who overall lack armour saves, and they're slower than almost every single choppy 'nid unit.
Tzeentch heralds, any non-MoK prince & Lords of Change can take boon, which vs any 'nid you'd want to use it against only turns them into a spawn on a 6! Hardly a reason to pay 15 skaven slaves per boon. One is fun and will occationally be usefull, but more than that is honestly a waste of pts.
Honestly, Slaanesh units are what really scare my buddy who plays 'nids. Lots of attacks, I6 across most units (Fiends are actually slow for a slaaneshii unit), rending, offensive grenades, the ability to remove an attack and hit-and-run on characters = a bug's nightmare!


As for a second army? If you really liked the eliteness of the GK's and having a lower model count, I add another vote to going for a Deathwing DA army! You get squads of termies who can mix & match shooty + choppy options, an option that's only shared by SW's and they *really* pay through the nose for it! Supported by dreads & land raiders, it's a neat theme and highly challenging when you're almost always outnumbered, but have a truely hard as nails army that stubbornly refuses to budge!
Plus, there's rumors of the DA's getting some new codex/model love in the near future, so it might be a good time to start building a small force and getting ready all the new hotness coming later this year?!