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List A:
-Shas’el, Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Multi-tracker
-2 Crisis Suits, Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods, Multi-trackers
-3 Crisis Suits, Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods, Multi-trackers
-3 Crisis Suits, Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods, Multi-trackers
-6 Pathfinders, Devilfish, Disruption Pod
-6 Fire Warriors
-20 Kroots
-20 Kroots
-20 Kroots
-3 Broadsides, 2 Target Locks, Team Leader, 2 Shield Drones
-3 Broadsides, 2 Target Locks, Team Leader, 2 Shield Drones
-3 Broadsides, 2 Target Locks, Team Leader, 2 Shield Drones

List B:
-Shas'el - Twin-linked Missile Pods, Target Lock
-2 Crisis Suits - Missile Pods, Plasma Rifles, Multi-tracker
-3 Crisis Suits - Missile Pods, Plasma Rifles, Multi-tracker
-3 Crisis Suits - Missile Pods, Plasma Rifles, Multi-tracker
-6 Fire Warriors
-20 Kroots
-20 Kroots
-20 Kroots
-20 Kroots
-Piranha - Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array
-Piranha - Fusion Blaster, Targeting Array
-3 Broadsides - 2 Target Locks, 1x Blacksun Filter
-3 Broadsides - 2 Target Locks, 1x Blacksun Filter
-3 Broadsides - 2 Target Locks, 1x Blacksun Filter

There's much discussion in fellow dakkalite Mercer's battle report "Grey Knights Purifier Order vs Tau - 2,000 points" thread regarding a list I wrote:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/431889.page

Unfortunately, the list in discussion isn't the Tau list that partook in Mercer's battle report. It was presented as a stronger more optimized list that would counter the list Mercer used (Crowe-Purfier MSU mech). Discussion in Mercer's thread getting off topic. Here's a new thread to facilitate further discussions regarding the more optimized Tau list featuring.

Take note that both list have been used in games before.

List A was used in my "Tau vs. Grey Knights - 2000 points [slideshow]" battle report thread posted a while back.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/392253.page

List B was used in fellow dakkalite jy2's "2000pts - 5-Dread Purifier Grey Knights vs 9-Broadside Tau (Completed)" battle report thread, posted a while back.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/386276.page

Feel free to discuss tactics, strategies, strengths, and weaknesses of both lists.

Also take note there are much more variations of both lists out there, which I haven't tried yet.

Clever Git Studios wrote:
No drones for suit protection? Interesting....And big kroot squads love being tank shocked in todays meta. If you are stringing them out in "layers" to protect the suits then they may all get tank shocked in the same turn.

SabrX wrote:That's if said tank arrives in one piece. On average, Kroots will pass moral test.

jy2 wrote:
I marvel at how tanks will be able to make it to tank shock given that there are 9 broadsides and 10 fireknives on that list...oh, and pathfinders to remove cover.

Isseyfaran wrote:

jy2 wrote:

I marvel at how tanks will be able to make it to tank shock given that there are 9 broadsides and 10 fireknives on that list...oh, and pathfinders to remove cover.

You are overly optimistic. Your stated list is 2500 points or so. At that pt level, pple can easily fill 10 - 15 tanks/vehs. 9 railguns and 20missile shots dont reliably shut down that no. Of tanks in 2-3 turns.

The right way to bring a tau list up to 2500 pts is to spam more suits, not kroots.

jy2 wrote:

Isseyfaran wrote:You are overly optimistic. Your stated list is 2500 points or so. At that pt level, pple can easily fill 10 - 15 tanks/vehs. 9 railguns and 20missile shots dont reliably shut down that no. Of tanks in 2-3 turns.

The right way to bring a tau list up to 2500 pts is to spam more suits, not kroots.

Actually, I was a little off. This was his exact list at 2K (battle report here)


Tau (Shadow Cadre):
-Shas’el, Plasma Rifle, Missile Pod, Multi-tracker
-2 Crisis Suits, Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods, Multi-trackers
-3 Crisis Suits, Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods, Multi-trackers
-3 Crisis Suits, Plasma Rifles, Missile Pods, Multi-trackers
-6 Pathfinders, Devilfish, Disruption Pod
-6 Fire Warriors
-20 Kroots
-20 Kroots
-20 Kroots
-3 Broadsides, 2 Target Locks, Team Leader, 2 Shield Drones
-3 Broadsides, 2 Target Locks, Team Leader, 2 Shield Drones
-3 Broadsides, 2 Target Locks, Team Leader, 2 Shield Drones


I agree it is always a good idea to add more suits, but I think you are underestimating the kroots. They are highly valuable in objectives games, especially with their ability to infiltrate and outflank, and help make up for Tau's weakness in that department. Or they can just be more screening units. I think the "balanced" Tau list should add both as it scales up in points, though I know many would rather overload their army with more offense (i.e. suits) as they go up in points.

And I have rarely played against a 9-12 tank MSU army (with 5-man squads) that just rushes the opponent. Most of their vehicles are made for shooting - razorbacks, predators, vindicators, etc. - and will sit back and shoot, with the exception being grey knights, IG meltavets and battle sisters.

But we all know how easily Tau can deal with the knights.

Dok wrote:
I think the main problem with that tau list is that it seems like it folds to long fang SW or a BA all power armour list. Devastators will be really hard on you as you can't really kill them effective at range.

jy2 wrote:

Dok wrote:
I think the main problem with that tau list is that it seems like it folds to long fang SW or a BA all power armour list. Devastators will be really hard on you as you can't really kill them effective at range.

Tau is an old codex. They won't be able to match up against all enemies, no matter how optimized they get.

However, such a list will stand a slightly better chance than most IMO. They've got enough anti-MEQ firepower in the form of 9 fireknives (potentially 18 plasma shots and 18 missiles shots) and 9 broadsides as well as pathfinders to remove cover to better deal with FNP blood angels than usual tau builds. They've also got enough screening with all those kroots to delay those assault marines. It's far from an autowin, but I actually think they're better equipped to deal with FNP assault marine BA than other Tau builds, which fold against them just like paper.

Against LF-spam SW, they don't necessarily have to kill all the long fangs. In my games against Reece's Bjorn SW, both with my grey knights and necrons (and both victories for me BTW, though the dice did go my way), I just ignored his long fangs initially and concentrated on taking out his mobility primarily (something Tau can easily do). Unfortunately, long fangs are just going to get theirs, just as my psyfleman dreads are going to kill their share of vehicles. To focus on these units is just not efficient. In the case of Tau, if they can use JSJ to keep their crisis suits out of LOS of the long fangs, then space wolf shooting actually isn't very efficient. Either shoot at broadsides with 2 2+ shield drones each or at kroots (who cares) once they are denied LOS to crisis suits.

Tau will have problems against these and other particular builds. I just think the kroot-broadside build by SabrX is better prepared to handle them than most Tau builds.

Dok wrote:True that. I'm not fully familiar with everything tau brings to the table, but if you JSJ out of Los of the fangs (assuming you were hiding on your side and not advancing) then all the SW player would have to do is hammer on the your broadsides and try to keep the rest of the army in cover. Assuming the SW list is spammy LF/GH, then they have lascannons to shoot at your broadsides as well.
I'm not trying to say that tau should be able to take on anyone at anytime with any build as their codex is old and has a lot of out-dated units, I'm just saying if you run into certain armies, you will face an almost auto-loss. Dependent on dice and player skill of course.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Any army can lose when it encounters its counter-army. Tau is definitely no exception. But I don't think it would be as much of an "auto-loss" as you think.

BA assault marine-spam is tough for Tau, and SW LF-spam is tough for almost any other army to go up against, but there is probably another army even more fearsome than them to Tau - tyranids, especially genestealer-heavy nids, and wraithwing necrons. IMO the tau are better equipped to deal with MEQ armies than they are against some of the xenos ones.

I just dont get why you have NEITHER TA's or ASS on the broadsides... You have opted for Target Locks which in theory is great to split fire but each group shooting 1 railgun into a tank has a low % chance to actually blow it up compared to more shots...

I could see giving the Team Lead a HWTL 2 split fire into 2 groups and adding TA or ASS to make those big guns either hit more or hit more often.

Easily done by getting rid of a bubble wrap kroot posse.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
With that said too this list is Tailored and thus IMHO garbage.

Milisim wrote:I just dont get why you have NEITHER TA's or ASS on the broadsides... You have opted for Target Locks which in theory is great to split fire but each group shooting 1 railgun into a tank has a low % chance to actually blow it up compared to more shots...

I could see giving the Team Lead a HWTL 2 split fire into 2 groups and adding TA or ASS to make those big guns either hit more or hit more often.

Easily done by getting rid of a bubble wrap kroot posse.

ASS isn't needed if you position Broadsides well. TLOS has a huge impact on the game. Broadsides don't need to move if they are protected from assault.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
With that said too this list is Tailored and thus IMHO garbage.

Tailored against what? Both lists are take-all comers and can handle both horde and mech spam. A list that has less Kroots won't fair well against horde. A list that has less Broadsides won't survive full-mech spam. Pathfinders is a force multiplier. Piranhas or Devilfish provides mobility to reach or contest objectives. Crisis Suits are also mobile enough to contest objectives.

I really don't think it's necessary to have THAT many kroot. Kroot with either die incredibly slowly (being shot at while going to ground in cover), or incredibly quickly (almost any other situation). With that in mind, I would decrease the total number of kroot in each squad to 15/17, or 10/11, with 5/6 kroot hound. Use the points to buy more suits (shas'vre), more piranha, more pathfinders, or an ASS on the broadsides.

I'm also with Milism in saying that you should just give the team lead a target lock. I find it is much more useful to be able to move to get better LOS, than it is to have 3 shots going at 3 separate targets.

And could this list perform against a horde list? I feel like if they were facing orks, the kroot would simply be slaughtered. Then there's not enough VoF to take down the rest, or blocking vehicles to keep them off your back.

And no shield/gun drones? You're a braver man than I.

I'd like to play against either of those lists with my Blood Angels. I think a lot would die on both sides. It's likely that all of my armor would be gone by turn 3, but the question would be whether or not I could take out your crisis suits and then get my marines assaulting into your lines. I think a lot would be riding on who got turn 1, but I think it would be a close game with hefty 'dead' piles on the sideboard .

Nice job creating lists with so many Kroot. I think they are cool models, and the slideshow you linked shows how sweet they can look taking the battlefield in such numbers.

Well you asked for opinions on the lists and that is what your going to get from all Tau players and non alike... If you are so confident in your lists then really there is no reason to post them with any comments needed......

A more along the lines of "This is my 2k Tau List" Suck it if you dont like it =]

Because Its not that I dont like it, Its more that I feel like it could be optimized for more killyness and staying power.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only reason I would say its Tailoring is because it is so MeQ killing heavy with Fireknives everywhere, that against a decent fast horde army.... Your going to crumble under the weight..... Kroot speedbump but 3 large speedbumps maybe too much and the points could be invested into something more anti horde....

Milisim wrote:Well you asked for opinions on the lists and that is what your going to get from all Tau players and non alike... If you are so confident in your lists then really there is no reason to post them with any comments needed......

A more along the lines of "This is my 2k Tau List" Suck it if you dont like it =]

Because Its not that I dont like it, Its more that I feel like it could be optimized for more killyness and staying power.

I expect constructive criticism, not destructive criticism. Explain your arguments with good reasoning rather than just stating, "this list is Tailored and thus IMHO garbage."

My response was not out of willful arrogance. I explained why I think my list isn't tailored. I then asked you to elaborate why you think it's garbage, which you did in your latest post.

So here comes my counter-argument...

Automatically Appended Next Post:
The only reason I would say its Tailoring is because it is so MeQ killing heavy with Fireknives everywhere, that against a decent fast horde army.... Your going to crumble under the weight..... Kroot speedbump but 3 large speedbumps maybe too much and the points could be invested into something more anti horde....

Fireknives is IMO the most versatile build against Monstrous Creatures, mech, and MEQ. It's also more durable being able to shoot at medium-long range. There aren't many tools in Tau's arsenal against horde. Flamers puts Crisis Suits too close to horde and trading Broadsides for Hammerheads means the Tau list is vulnerable to mech spam list. Furthermore, Broadsides also have SMS, which ignores cover.

I see nothing wrong with Kroots. They have good volume of fire and are decent in assault. Layered Kroots can prevent enemy units from assaulting vulnerable fire support units such as Heavy Support and Elites.

Plus, one of the list has Piranhas while the other has a Devilish. Both could serve as speed bumps to horde and vehicles.

If you think there's a better anti-horde alternative, then mention them.

7 Railguns with adequate pathfinder support should be enough to take down most mech spam. Replacing a squad of broadsides with a hammerhead will give you a boost in your anti-horde (burstcannon + submunitions), give you another potential blocking vehicle, and also free up some points to get another Shas'el, armed with either a CIB or a AFP. If you reduce the number of kroot you're bringing, then you may have enough points to squeeze in a couple of Shav're with burstcannons + missile pods.

Kroot are amazing, don't get me wrong, but there is a certain point where they reach a critical mass (about 13 for me) and further points spent on them become points better spent elsewhere.

I'm with Sek... perhaps he has a better way with words than I?


I have an abrasive personality =]

I see very little wrong with either list. 9 XV8s and 9 b-sides is all win. I'd prefer list A for the SDs on the XV88s.

Hmm. I'd sweat leadership checks on the kroot. 20 birds without a Shaper's Ld would worry me. Sekminara's number for 'critical mass' is my threshold for Shapers joining in.

Milisim wrote:With that said too this list is Tailored and thus IMHO garbage.

I agree with SabrX. I don't see the remotest 'tailoring' here. Just 18 suits fulla dakka.

Brothererekose wrote:
Hmm. I'd sweat leadership checks on the kroot.

This exactly. Judging from your battle reports, you seem to have had first hand knowledge of the unreliability of kroot after a poor assault phase. If you're going to be swept anyway, why give the enemy ~52 extra points?

Multiple layers of Kroot with the first line in cover provides cover saves to the ones in the back (assuming they aren't being hit by barrage large blasts or flamer templates). The average roll of 2D6 is 7. It doesn't matter whether the first line turns tail and run or gets massacred in assault because there might be 2 more lines of Kroot preventing enemy infantry from consolidating or moving further. Hence enemy forces can't multi-charge unless they shoot enough Kroots down to open a gap the squad behind the front line.

Kroot are sacrificial pawns. Their job is to prevent enemy units from assaulting more valuable units. I really don't care whether they fail moral or not. In most cases, I benefit Kroots failing moral as it either means they could fall back and regroup (assuming they are 50% strength and 6" away from enemy units) or it allows the rest of my forces to shoot at the unit that just assaulted it.

Some of the naysayers brought up the issue of multi-tank shocks, but let me remind them there's 9 Broadsides and 9 Suits all equipped with Missile Pods. In some of my lists, there are even Piranhas, which are great vehicle road blocks.