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Chimera with Hull HF
Turret ML

Vets (mounted)
-Demolitions doctrine
-HF
-Flamer
-Flamer

I'm hoping that I can use this as basically an upgraded (yet slower) Banewolf for only 55 points more. I could remove the two normal flamers as they're probably just wasted points as I expect this to get popped either by the enemy or my demo charge exceedingly fast.

I was wondering if this combination is legal, if Melta bombs can be thrown from the hatch, and if it may be illadvised due to too many points for too fragile of a unit.

Melta bombs are close combat weapons and cannot be "thrown" from the hatch.
Thing about this is that the Chimera is not fast so you can only shoot one of those flamers while moving 6", or none at 12".
If you want flamer spam goodness, go for Hellhounds or if you're against MEQ the variant that's AP3 and wounds on 2+, can't remember its name.
Hellhounds can place their flamer template anywhere within 12" of the weapon, and at S6 you can threaten light transports too since it'll be pretty easy to get back armour.

Thanks for an answer to one of my questions.

In return I'll answer one of yours. It's called the Banewolf and thats what I'm comparing this unit to. It is excellent as the Chem Cannon should be considered Defensive? In regards to the other Hellhound variants I've studied the book very carefully and know their ins and outs. I'm just looking for a way to add some 'fuel' to the fire and offload some of my potential anti-inf templates onto the more numerous Troop slots so I have more space for Vendettas and Devil Dogs.

I hadn't considered whether the chem cannon is a defensive weapon. It has no strength so I suppose it might be. Still against anything that you'll use it against (MEQ) you shouldn't be firing the heavy flamer anyway, since you'l be giving them saving throws to distribute and save their valuable troops.
Also they can outflank, which can be fun.

So then just the demo charge and no other flamers besides what comes on the Chimera. Which would only make it 25 points more then the Banewolf, and consequently worth taking. IMO

Joey wrote:I hadn't considered whether the chem cannon is a defensive weapon. It has no strength so I suppose it might be. Still against anything that you'll use it against (MEQ) you shouldn't be firing the heavy flamer anyway, since you'l be giving them saving throws to distribute and save their valuable troops.
Also they can outflank, which can be fun.

It has a strength of 1, which makes it defensive

This frees up your hull mounted weapon to spew out another heavy flamer hit or throw down a multi-melta if you want to pay for 15 points.

btw, what are you planning on using the tank for? Seems like you want to make it a super flame tank something like the orc's. So anti-infantry?
but you also want a melta bomb so anti-tank as well?

Personally, I like my flamer toting template guys pretty fast and in people's faces. Denying AP saves to MEQ is really good. They still get FNP against this which is somewhat annoying.
Having it filled with troops is kind of good and bad since good in that you can cap points. Bad in that you are paying BS4 to carry flamers. I'd give them melta guns if anything instead of the demo doctrine and you can't scatter back onto yourself with the demo pack. That 6' loss in mobility also really kind of hurts especially as most things you want to flame like long fangs or other things like missle scouts/psycannons in cover, are usually at 24' to 48'.

If you go 6', it'd take you 3 turns to get close enough. You can give up shooting for the chimera boat to go 12' and pop smoke. Then barely get in range with 6+6' template to get a few guys if they were at close range at 24' away.
With fast, you go 18' flat out then pop smoke. (24' if you were on a road). Next turn you can either be going another 18 and nearly be in range to threaten the backfield or get a great lined up shot with the extra movement at 12' move to set up your template. With the hellhound, you'd actually be able to even flame the back field by turn 2 since you get extra 12' range with the template. That str 6 flamer will also let you threaten softer armor. Heck, pay 15 more points and it'd be possible to slap a multi-melta on it. 12' move + 24' melta hit (just str 8 but still Ap1). If you feel ballsy next turn can get even closer to potentially rear armor flamer + melta with 2d6.

You're still better off not firing the Heavy Flamer. The Chem Cannon will get x wounds on enemy MEQs and the HF will allow the enemy to allocate armour save wounds to his sargents/special weapons while giving the non-savable wounds to his dog-soldiers. Multi-melta is a waste on an anti-infantry vehicle IMO. Keep it for the Devil Dogs.

Joey wrote:You're still better off not firing the Heavy Flamer. The Chem Cannon will get x wounds on enemy MEQs and the HF will allow the enemy to allocate armour save wounds to his sargents/special weapons while giving the non-savable wounds to his dog-soldiers. Multi-melta is a waste on an anti-infantry vehicle IMO. Keep it for the Devil Dogs.

overall agree but vs say something like necron warrior spam, that AP4 is still pretty useful though granted now I've shifted the argument away from MEQ to slightly less tough than MEQ.

If you have an infantry platoon, you can make a flamer spam unit much cheaper by loading up a platoon command squad or special weapon squad with flamers and/or heavy flamers (the special weapons squad will need to jack somebody else's chimera).

As sudojoe mentioned, it's kind of a waste of vets BS4 to carry flamers. But with BS3, a PCS or SWS does as well with flamers as vets would. Also it's much cheaper to add a demo charge (or three) to a SWS than to a vet squad.

sudojoe wrote:

Joey wrote:You're still better off not firing the Heavy Flamer. The Chem Cannon will get x wounds on enemy MEQs and the HF will allow the enemy to allocate armour save wounds to his sargents/special weapons while giving the non-savable wounds to his dog-soldiers. Multi-melta is a waste on an anti-infantry vehicle IMO. Keep it for the Devil Dogs.

overall agree but vs say something like necron warrior spam, that AP4 is still pretty useful though granted now I've shifted the argument away from MEQ to slightly less tough than MEQ.

Yeah but then you may as well go with the hellhound for the vastly increased threat range, essentially you can place the template anywhere 12" around the vehicle

I wouldn't recommend a unit like this, for reasons others have mentioned - it's way too slow, plus flamers waste the higher BS of Veteran Squads.

Hellhounds and Banewolves are just better at what they do.

OTOH, if you were to run a blob in a hybrid list, the PCS will be sitting around with not much to do. Give them 4 flamers and stick them in a Chimera with 2 HFs. There, you've got your flamebus. Use it in close support of your blob, so its lack of speed doesn't matter as much.

I'd like to make a couple of points clear, I never stated that I was planning on using this vs MEQ. And if I were, the primary weapon of this design is the Demo charge, not the flamers. The demo charge by my reckoning ignores FNP because of being double the T4 and AP2 so whatever it hits is gone. (Excluding Assault Termies)
The flamers were really only in the unit as a backup incase the charge somehow doesn't scatter and pop my own transport it can run around as a majour flame spewer. Alternatively if it gets popped I could try to assault any nearby vehicle and Melta bomb it for what they're worth.

Due to it's slow speed I may use it as an objective contester or as a support vehicle that roves behind a gun line or wall of Armour waiting for a particularily juicy target to present itself before mini nuking it. If I drop all of the Flamers it only costs 155 points which is barely more then a Banewolf. But the demo charge is useful against Termies unlike the Banewolf and can perform reasonably well at Transport stunning which followed up by a Melta bomb assault and a HF blast from the Chimera itself when/if the enemy models come out to play.

Well for 10 points more you can get a Demolisher which can use a demo charge every turn at 24", plus AV 14/13/11.

However it uses up a very valuable HS slot vs an empty Troop slot. As well this is a unit that may follow behind a Demolisher to add an extra template to forray.

Again, if you want demo charges, a special weapon squad can take 3 demo charges for about half the cost of a vet squad with only 1 demo charge (so you can take two squads and have 6 demo charges). BS3 vs. BS4 doesn't matter as much with blast/scatter weapons.

Just put them in a vendetta or in somebody else's chimera and it's the ultimate demo suicide unit.

Gibblets wrote:However it uses up a very valuable HS slot vs an empty Troop slot. As well this is a unit that may follow behind a Demolisher to add an extra template to forray.

Orrrr...
Two Demolishers! If you're having difficulty fitting them in, squadron them.

I get what you're trying to do, but the unit you've chosen to focus on just isn't really good at any of the things you want it to do.

Gibblets wrote:I'd like to make a couple of points clear, I never stated that I was planning on using this vs MEQ. And if I were, the primary weapon of this design is the Demo charge, not the flamers. The demo charge by my reckoning ignores FNP because of being double the T4 and AP2 so whatever it hits is gone. (Excluding Assault Termies)

The demo charge is S8 AP2. Meltaguns are S8 AP1, so they work against the same set of targets, and are even better against vehicles. You won't get as many hits in one turn, but meltaguns that stay in the Chimera will average more hits over the course of a game and don't pose a threat to your squad.

Also, the only way to get a good shot off with the demo charge without getting charged first is to move 12" and disembark, thereby suiciding your squad. I don't fancy paying 100 points for a one-shot pie plate that isn't even close to guaranteed damage.

The flamers were really only in the unit as a backup incase the charge somehow doesn't scatter and pop my own transport it can run around as a majour flame spewer. Alternatively if it gets popped I could try to assault any nearby vehicle and Melta bomb it for what they're worth.

You seem to be relying on the demo charge and melta bombs as the primary weapons of this squad. They aren't. The demo charge is one shot, and the melta bombs are too situational. Throwing in flamers isn't the way to handle it either, it just confuses the squad's role. You need to decide if you want to fight hordes or tanks and gear your squad to fight one or the other.

Due to it's slow speed I may use it as an objective contester or as a support vehicle that roves behind a gun line or wall of Armour waiting for a particularily juicy target to present itself before mini nuking it. If I drop all of the Flamers it only costs 155 points which is barely more then a Banewolf. But the demo charge is useful against Termies unlike the Banewolf and can perform reasonably well at Transport stunning which followed up by a Melta bomb assault and a HF blast from the Chimera itself when/if the enemy models come out to play.

The threat range of a demolition charge is not large enough to "mini nuke" anything reliably, and a single pie plate won't do as much damage as you think. Dropping the flamers will make the squad even more pointless. Paying 100 points and wasting a slot just for 10 dudes with the demolition doctrine is not a good deal. You said earlier that you weren't fighting MEQ, so why are you worried about Termies? For what you say you want to do with the unit, a Banewolf with hull MM will do it better and cheaper. If you're fighting Termies, this squad won't cut it anyways.

@Joey The problem with squadroning Demolishers is that I want to hit multiple targets a turn instead of wasting (besides firing at Assault Terms or AV13+) the second template on a decimated target. I'd rather pair the Demolisher with an Executioner or even an Exterminator or Punisher. That way you compensate for the demolishers weaknesses for ex. Short range, Multi-wound T6+ creatures, Invuln saves. So it becomes less like a game of Rock, Paper,Scissors and more of Rock and Paper, Scissors. Versatility in an Assault unit is enticing to me as it becomes very hard for the enemy to find an appropriate unit to counter mine.

@Flavius Infernus I didn't think of using SWS with Demo charges.... 150 points and 3 charges? Yes indeedy; that sounds perfect. How is a SWS with 3 charges "about half the cost of a vet squad with only 1 demo charge"? that works to 95 points for the SWS and 100 for the vets. As insanely overkill as 6 charges sound I don't expect to get off more then 2 before causing the catastrophic failure of the Chimera.
To have 2 SWS squads with 5 flamers and one hull HF on the Chimera sounds like a good artie defense unit to me.

@Roboute Yes, yes more people telling me to use Melta Vets, I knew this was going to happen sooner or later. This all began as something else[u] I could use Vets for other then predictable and boring Meltas. I'm trying to have fun here not make a competitive build, lord knows I've read more then enough about how to do that. With what Flavius suggested I can bring 3 charges which is perfect for the role I see this playing. Let me give an example of what I see. I'm using the chimera as a C&C style Demolition Truck, I intend for it to die in a firey explosion(s). http://youtu.be/JGZjLOnpuKw The beauty of the demo charges is that very few units are outside of it's target profile. Which is why I have brought up Terminators, since most people like to think in terms of MEQs. However I'd really rather use this against fellow IGs, orks, eldar
What's a "good" shot exactly as it pertains to a demo truck?

Gibblets wrote:@Joey The problem with squadroning Demolishers is that I want to hit multiple targets a turn instead of wasting (besides firing at Assault Terms or AV13+) the second template on a decimated target.

Well anything you fire at will get cover. The VERY BEST scenario is you will hit twice and cause huge casualties. In reality, huge pie plates' main liability is that they can and do consistently hit.
I'm not saying ra ra ra take lots of leman russes. But if you want a vehicle that can lay out pie plate damage and take a pounding, you can't go wrong with Leman Russes. I only stipulated Demolisher because I personally love them. Strength 10 ordinance means you will damage Land Raiders 75% of the time, as well as obliterate any infantry, heavy, light, medium, etc. But the standard Leman Russ is fine, too, as long as you aren't expecting terminators.

Sorry I took so long to finish my edit (too much time refferencing) But I added a few extra thoughts about your previous post my previous as well, which should answer your latest. That's not confusing

Joey wrote:You're still better off not firing the Heavy Flamer. The Chem Cannon will get x wounds on enemy MEQs and the HF will allow the enemy to allocate armour save wounds to his sargents/special weapons while giving the non-savable wounds to his dog-soldiers. Multi-melta is a waste on an anti-infantry vehicle IMO. Keep it for the Devil Dogs.

Im going to disagree with you on the multi melta point here. I find it quite useful for multi purose use. It generally attracts quite alot of attention so if it is wep des on the chem cannon its now a 12" +24" Anti tank speedboat. And vice versa if there were only tanks (mech armies/battlewagon rush etc.) on the field early on.

I agree with Yarrick on having units that are versatile instead of specialized. To me there's nothing more wasteful then a unit that has no good targets

With regard to a MM on a Banewolf, it's one of the few situations I'd advocate versatility, because as has been brought up before the heavy flamer wounds could actually be beneficial for MEQ enemies. The multi-melta also gives the banewolf some range.

[quote=Gibblets@Roboute Yes, yes more people telling me to use Melta Vets, I knew this was going to happen sooner or later. This all began as something else[u] I could use Vets for other then predictable and boring Meltas. I'm trying to have fun here not make a competitive build, lord knows I've read more then enough about how to do that. With what Flavius suggested I can bring 3 charges which is perfect for the role I see this playing. Let me give an example of what I see. I'm using the chimera as a C&C style Demolition Truck, I intend for it to die in a firey explosion(s). http://youtu.be/JGZjLOnpuKw The beauty of the demo charges is that very few units are outside of it's target profile. Which is why I have brought up Terminators, since most people like to think in terms of MEQs. However I'd really rather use this against fellow IGs, orks, eldar
What's a "good" shot exactly as it pertains to a demo truck?

Probably better off with a quad flamer pcs and a 3 demo charge sws.

I am a big fan of the quad flamer pcs. It does more wounds than a hellhound, and is a scoring unit.

Gibblets wrote:

@Flavius Infernus I didn't think of using SWS with Demo charges.... 150 points and 3 charges? Yes indeedy; that sounds perfect. How is a SWS with 3 charges "about half the cost of a vet squad with only 1 demo charge"? that works to 95 points for the SWS and 100 for the vets. As insanely overkill as 6 charges sound I don't expect to get off more then 2 before causing the catastrophic failure of the Chimera.
To have 2 SWS squads with 5 flamers and one hull HF on the Chimera sounds like a good artie defense unit to me.

I was working from memory and thought the charges were cheaper, so yep 95 points for the squad, which is only 5 points cheaper than the vet squad with 1 charge.

But if it's a suicide squad anyway, you can throw all three charges in the same shooting phase to saturate the target. Then just have them run and hide or be annoying if they survive.

I think OP is trying to be too cute by half. You won't regret taking up a FA slot with a Hellhound (or squadron, I usually run 2), the Chimera laden with semi-nasty stuff will not outperform a Hellhound. Now I would suggest taking a 3 Flamer SWS in a Valkyrie/Vendetta and have them go suicide attack a dug in unit. 3 Flamer templates stack up a respectable amount of wounds and it's a cheap unit. Of course the Heavy Flamer makes it a bit better, but that also costs too much.

I've run a "sapper" SWS unit with a Flamer, meltagun and demo charge with mixed results. Once and a while I get lucky and it pops a tank, but most of the time it's a distraction unit. I expect it to be an irritant and a potential objective theif, but not much more than that.

I sure won't regret taking Hellohounds (not a typo) and their varients. I've been pondering them for months now and feel quite versed in their respective uses. I agree that this unit with 3 demo charges will only be an irritant and objective thief, fortunately for me that's all I was looking for.
Well that and the my opponents reaction to my suicide bombing Chimera. (hmm... hope the Feds don't take offensive to that phrase)

While I agree that there are better ways to do this squad, I'm not sold on the idea in general, no matter the setup. As has been mentioned, you're talking about 170 points for something whose only redeeming quality is that it's scoring.

If your opponent is concerned about being hit with several flamers and a demo charge from a single, super-fragile unit lightly sheathed in an AV12 chassis, it's not going to be all that hard for him to break it up and eliminate the troops inside in one way or another. That or they could just spread out their troops, which will basically kill this squad's effectiveness.

As others have said, if you want this kind of a unit, just take a hellhound. It's cheap. It's fast, while the chimera isn't. It's got side AV12, which the chimera doesn't, and much, much more importantly, it can put it's flame template way out in front of the vehicle and then twist it to hit a real number of models. The hellhound might actually get to shoot, and do something with that shot, while the infantry in the chimera, or a banewolf, would just get gunned down before it had a chance to do what is likely rather little.

Or, for how many points you're spending, as others have also mentioned, you could take a russ, which gives you more or less what you're looking for, but it also comes with AV14, meaning your opponent can't just lob a couple of missiles at it to deny its threateningness.

At 100 points, a PCS or SWS with flamers might, possibly be worth taking, but for vet prices, you'd better be getting vet quality, which you're currently not.

Since I don't want to repost alot of the material that has come before.
@Ailaros While I agree with you on practically all of your points I have also given appropriate responses to most of them higher up in the thread.

I want re-iterate that Hellhounds are the most appealing of the variants to me because they're versatile. With the ranged twistable template it's great at flushing cover, and a MM for popping transports or good for a rush on side armour. Seems like a well specialized and versatile unit. Even though the rush on side armour may only work 40% of the time. It will also either draw the fire of the target or get another shot at the target from behind.