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Hello there Dakkanauts,

I've been pondering this for a moment, and figured I would do well to ask for opinions.
I'm torn between choosing a Grand Master or a Librarian to lead a larger (as in more than 1000 points) GK army, assuming taking both would be greedy. Boys before toys !

I've browsed every Tactica I could find, and so far the Librarian boasts solid arguments : he brings invaluable psychic defenses and flexibility due to his allies-enhancing powers, of which he can choose an unlimited number. I can see him used to anchor the army in midfield with Sanctuary and The Shrouding while covering a large area with his hood, for example.
Yet I keep salivating at the tactical possibilities unlocked by the Grand Master. In terms of flexibility, Grand Strategy is as good as it gets (eat your heart out, Creed). Psychic Communion offers useful reserve control for outflanking or Deep Striking, and he can take servo-skulls to further improve the latter's reliability. I'm thinking this could be a prime asset for such a small force.

Think I didn't forget anything. As regards killiness, the GM is a scary beatstick (not to mention the nades !) but the Libby enhances his squad more (Might of Titan > walkers). I'm not really considering this aspect, but feel free to do so !

Not speaking about any particular army list, in fact I expect them to perform differently according to their environment. And since I'm still planning my future acquisitions, I want to hear every perspective ! (In my case no HQ to mess with the FOC, vanilla GK.)
Feel free to challenge anything you've read in this post while staying civil and constructive.

There's really no contest sadly, the GK librarian is the best HQ in the game by far, for what it does, what it costs and how hard it is to kill.

Just take one of each.

libby is probably the best, you should have enough troops anyway than making a walker able ot capture objectives.

GM is just too expensive for what he is, his got good stuff but libby is cheaper and got better stuff.

Overall, you can never go wrong with the libby.

I wrote about GMs a while back when the codex first came out. http://www.3forint.com/2011/06/drunken-master-grand-strategy-or-is-it.html
Grand strategy really changes how you can build your lists. He helps a lot if you are expecting random missions or if you just need tougher troops. I have a bunch of battle reports using GM as well. You just need to remember to use the abilities you assign during the game

Always glad to grab more reading material ! Thanks for the input.

That's one thing I wasn't thinking of when I wrote that post : how the GM interacts with Combat Squads. I want to field at least two 10-men troop squads to be able to CS if necessary. This reduces the need for scoring units... Or does it ? They would be as a result more fragile, and in the case of PAGK, there is a drop in LD.
On the other hand, making an Interceptor squad scoring could be interesting. Splitting it in two scoring and shunting annoyers even more so...

What I'm looking for is synergy. There is more to this 'dex than a "point and click" approach and I want to grasp it !

juraigamer, when you talk about how tough the Librarian is, I take it that the warding staff is a no-brainer ?

Well, both choices provide synergy. Both can also be a force multiplier. The librarian is a bit better at this job as he can use his powers in different situations. Once you assign GS, the grand master is just another guy in termie armour.
But like I said, the GM changes how you can build your list, whereas the librarian will most likely go along with a deathstar unit to provide some mostly unnecessary buffing. It's all in what you want to play and how you want to play it.

Grand strategy is too good to be left out. Therefore, I'd opt for a Grand Master.

IT DEPENDS ON THE LIST. IT ALWAYS DEPENDS ON THE LIST.

Depending on the list, a GM could work far far better than a Librarian. Or vice versa.


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Marthike wrote:GM is just too expensive for what he is, his got good stuff but libby is cheaper and got better stuff.

While technically true, the libby is really not that much cheaper. 150 base plus usually 4 additional powers equals 170. GM is base 175. If your Libby plans on getting into CC, then a warding stave is a good idea which bumps the cost up a lot.

Libby is better and adds more to the army in a tac list.

Draigo, why did you throw your fellow Grand Maser under the bus?

Don't be racist.

I'll run both if I'm running one. That said, if I had to pick one at the 1000 point level, I'd probably go with the Librarian for Shrouding and Sanctuary to keep my models alive.

Joe Mama wrote:Draigo, why did you throw your fellow Grand Maser under the bus?

Don't be racist.

Hhhmm but a gm and libby are the same race just different profession. Though for some reason Joe I think youre the one who accused me for being a traitor for giving suggestion for csm to beat gk.

Draigo wrote:

Joe Mama wrote:Draigo, why did you throw your fellow Grand Maser under the bus?

Don't be racist.

Hhhmm but a gm and libby are the same race just different profession. Though for some reason Joe I think youre the one who accused me for being a traitor for giving suggestion for csm to beat gk.

I don't think you're the real Draigo. You are an imposter!

If I can take both, that is the best recourse.

Otherwise, Librarian all the way.


My Librarian has a Warding Stave and has Shrouding, Quicksilver, and Might of Titan at a minimum. If I have points leftover I'll tack on more powers.

My Grandmaster always has both types of Grenades and a Psycannon. BS6 is great with it.

To make a generalization:
You take a GM in your list if you plan on taking cheap and minimal troops and focusing on the more powerful units in the book. ie dreadknights, ven dreads, etc
You take a lib in your list if you are taking the specialist units as troops and you need to buff their damage output and survivability. ie dca, purifiers, pallies, etc

That's like the Full Super Deluxe menu, Templar !
I don't know, the extra bodies I could add with just the mandatory HQ feel critical to such a small army.

Since what they do in a vaccuum seems pretty clear, it'd be interesting to develop about the list around them. Examples, anyone ?
Joe, you brought it up, you go first.

Ah, good point by Dok. Yeah, that's what I've gathered so far : the Libby acts as a force multiplier, while the GM allows for various tricks by improving the list in a more "meta" way. Scoring Dreadnoughts to smoothen the plan in objective games, outflanking Dreadknights for fun and profit, etc.

Dok wrote:To make a generalization:
You take a GM in your list if you plan on taking cheap and minimal troops and focusing on the more powerful units in the book. ie dreadknights, ven dreads, etc
You take a lib in your list if you are taking the specialist units as troops and you need to buff their damage output and survivability. ie dca, purifiers, pallies, etc

That's a good generalization, but there are always exceptions. For the GM, Paladins should go up there. A 5 or 10 man Paladin squad can be taken without Draigo, and the GM could make them scoring if need be. Also, in a more CC focused list, the GM often comes out ahead in the damage output buffing as he is a bit of a beast himself, and his rad grenades / psycho grenades can't be negated by psychic hoods.




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Hyd wrote:Joe, you brought it up, you go first.

Eh? My lists so far have Coteaz in them, but I'll give this a shot. Off the top of my head:

GM, grenades
10 Paladins with psycannons and stuff
10 GKSS dudes, Rhino
10 GKSS dudes

Land Raider
2 Psybolt Rifledread dudes

Total - Some amount of points.

I don't think paladins+GM is a good idea. They are deadly but expensive and weak against S8+ Ap2-weapons. They do need some one to protect them---Draigo, LIbby or both (and a SR or LR if you use 5men squad)

Yeah, the GM doesn't add anything to their survivability against the weapons that would hurt them the most. At least in the case of large paladin squads, you need this.

You are both wrong.

The GM adds making them troops, or letting them reroll 1s if not an objective game. The grenades also of course help massively in CC.

While a Librarian would help them be more survivable, in cover, in a list like that a Librarian would be an AWFUL OMG IT IS TERRIBLE choice of an HQ. Because you'd lose just about every objective game.

Incorrect, the GM doesn't make them Troops. He makes them scoring, major difference.

Joe Mama wrote:You are both wrong.

The GM adds making them troops, or letting them reroll 1s if not an objective game. The grenades also of course help massively in CC.

While a Librarian would help them be more survivable, in cover, in a list like that a Librarian would be an AWFUL OMG IT IS TERRIBLE choice of an HQ. Because you'd lose just about every objective game.

Well, yes in the context of the bad list you posted, we would be wrong. However, depending on HQ of choice, you wouldn't take the same list. I said that the GM affects the way you make your lists. And in the list you made, why wouldn't you just drop half of one of those strike squads and take draigo? It would make the paladins 100% more valuable. And you could use your grand strategy on something else.

Are you against running GM Mordrak? I'm finding that the more I use him the more I like him! All the benefits of a GM plus a few nifty rules.

pdawg517 wrote:Are you against running GM Mordrak? I'm finding that the more I use him the more I like him! All the benefits of a GM plus a few nifty rules.

He's great, but I think we are talking about unnamed GM here?

The general discussion is about GM. Mordrak is a GM and can bring all the benefits of one to the table plus a couple neat rules. If the OP had room I would say go for both. Lately I have been running Mordrak and a libby and am finding that making things like interceptors or paladins score is very beneficial. Having the libby also brings in an abundance of psychic abilities and defense.

Dok wrote:

Joe Mama wrote: However, depending on HQ of choice, you wouldn't take the same list. I said that the GM affects the way you make your lists.

AND I SAID THAT TOO. So why are you complaining or acting like that that wasn't said in this thread? Are you trying to start a fight for no reason?

I pulled that list out of my ass in 3 seconds, wrote it out as a stream of consciousness exercise (remember how I said I've only used Coteaz so far). But the point, stil stands, the choice of a GM or a Lib depends on what else surrounds the HQ in a list. Some people were implying a Lib is always better, which is incorrect.



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Grey Templar wrote:Incorrect, the GM doesn't make them Troops. He makes them scoring, major difference.

Yes, that is a huge difference, just as 6 and a half dozen are incredibly different. PS - Your second sentence is not grammatically correct. Since you are so keen to split hairs, I hope you will repair your sentence. Because that kind of thing is important!

The difference is that you are required to take 2 troops, which the GM doesn't make a unit into.

apple1988218 wrote:I don't think paladins+GM is a good idea.

There is a guy who goes by Crynn who has smashed face in many tournaments with a Draigo-less, Librarian-less Paladin deathstar. Uses a GM and Coteaz. Blogs on 3++, and has battle reports on some 40k forum somewhere, I forget which.

So it can be done and done well.


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Grey Templar wrote:The difference is that you are required to take 2 troops, which the GM doesn't make a unit into.

That difference means nothing, as you need a legal list before the game starts. Who would ever think the Grand Strategy rolling would turn an illegal list into a legal one? That would be silliness. "Hi, do you want to play me? I am going to start rolling dice in order to make my list legal!"

People have won with strikes, purifer/henchman, draigowing, and all sorts of versions. It all comes down to planning and execution of your plan. GM can be better espeacially if you want to outflank dk.. Then you use them as your "cover" since the opponent has to switch gears and shoot at them.

Joe Mama wrote:

apple1988218 wrote:I don't think paladins+GM is a good idea.

There is a guy who goes by Crynn who has smashed face in many tournaments with a Draigo-less, Librarian-less Paladin deathstar. Uses a GM and Coteaz. Blogs on 3++, and has battle reports on some 40k forum somewhere, I forget which.

So it can be done and done well.

I run a double-stormraven-deathstar croteze list too, while you lose some survivability by losing the librarian as long as you are bringing the thunder to your opponent and sticking them into big multi-assaults it is a non issue, especially with horrifying amounts of dread+razorback support fire.