Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hey guys, I am having a little trouble with the interpretation of Searchlights from the BT codex. The rule reads "... It must still use night fighting rules to pick a target, but having fired at that unit will illuminate it with its searchlight." I see 2 possible interpretations of this, either

- The vehicle tests then fires a weapon at the unit, illuminating it in the process
or
- The vehicle "fires" the searchlight at the unit, illuminating it but counting as its weapon

I tried looking at the 5th ed BA codex but it has similarly ambiguous wording, and neither the BT FAQ nor the SM FAQ cover this rule. Help is much appreciated!

You "searchlight" at the same time you fire. So, if you choose to fire your razorback's twin-linked lascannon at your enemy's demolisher, you spotlight it at the same time.

Because it does not specify "Once per game" like smoke launchers does, I can activate a searchlight multiple times from the same vehicle, right?

Correct. No limit to the number of times you can searchlight.

Thanks for the quick replies!

Spotlights illuminate your target for everyone else that turn if it successfully shoots it.

whigwam wrote:Correct. No limit to the number of times you can searchlight.

Moderas wrote:Thanks for the quick replies!

Well, there is no limit to how many times you can searchlight in a game. You cannot searchlight all the enemy's vehicles in one turn of shooting, because searchlights happen at the same time you shoot.

You must shoot to use a searchlight.

Related question, do you need to roll to hit with a searchlight? Or once you see the enemy, do you manage to light them up instantly?

And you do still roll for night fighting to make sure you can 'see' the enemy before you light them up with the searchlight yes?

Yes, you still have to successfully 'see' them with a night fight roll to light them up. Once you 'see' them, there is no requirement to roll to hit with the searchlight.

puma713 wrote:

whigwam wrote:Correct. No limit to the number of times you can searchlight.

Moderas wrote:Thanks for the quick replies!

Well, there is no limit to how many times you can searchlight in a game. You cannot searchlight all the enemy's vehicles in one turn of shooting, because searchlights happen at the same time you shoot.

You must shoot to use a searchlight.

Should probably look in my Codex first, but can you shoot one target normally, activating the searchlight and then PotMS shoot at a different target activating the searchlight again in the same shooting phase?

don_mondo wrote:Yes, you still have to successfully 'see' them with a night fight roll to light them up. Once you 'see' them, there is no requirement to roll to hit with the searchlight.

I can't find any kind of page references for that, is there any? Or because they don't say 'roll to hit as normal' do you take it for granted that you don't have to. Sorry to be a pest, but I've been rolling to hit for the past year and a bit with my searchlights, and I hate managing to see the enemy and then missing with the searchlight

Searchlights are not shooting, so no requirement to roll to hit.

Cheers don n nos

motyak brings up an inteersting point, that I did not see an answer for. I shoot with 2 weapons at Unit A, successfully spotting them, and lighting them up. I then use PotMS to shoot at Unit B, again successfully spotting them. Is Unit B also under the affect of the Searchlight?

Happyjew wrote:motyak brings up an inteersting point, that I did not see an answer for. I shoot with 2 weapons at Unit A, successfully spotting them, and lighting them up. I then use PotMS to shoot at Unit B, again successfully spotting them. Is Unit B also under the affect of the Searchlight?

I would say so, since all searchlight says is ". . having acquired the target, will illuminate it with the searchlight."

No restrictions or exeptions. Simply, if you acquire a target, you light it up. I don't see why firing two weapons at two different targets would be an exception to this.

A vehicle must be able to shoot to use a searchlight.

Per the shooting rules
1) Pick a target.
Per nightfighting rules
2) roll the distance the unit can see. This vehicle can now be seen regardless of nightfight on the opponents next turn.
3) if the distance is equal or greater than the distance to the target, the target may be shot at disregarding nightfight.

P.95 of the BRB says "If the distance between the firing unit and their target is higher than the total rolled, the unit cannot fire at all in this Shooting phase..."

So, Lone wolves using split fire if the first try cannot see, they cannot roll to see clearly for the second.
With PotMS, if you fail to "see clearly" with your first roll, the vehicle may not fire at all.

Regarding search lights and PotMS, a searchlight may pick "a target" only. You may not use a searchlight for multiple targets from a single vehicle and I don't believe there are any cases where you can take more than one searchlight.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Regarding search lights and PotMS, a searchlight may pick "a target" only. You may not use a searchlight for multiple targets from a single vehicle and I don't believe there are any cases where you can take more than one searchlight.

The searchlight rules do refer to 'a target' yes... but in the actual context of the rule as a whole, what it is saying is that when you acquire a target, it is illuminated.

So, you roll your spotting distance for your first target. If it is visible, you acquired the target. It is therefore illuminated.
You then roll your spotting distance for your next target. If it is visible, you acquired the target. It is therefore illuminated.
Rinse and repeat for as many different units as the vehicle can shoot at.

insaniak wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Regarding search lights and PotMS, a searchlight may pick "a target" only. You may not use a searchlight for multiple targets from a single vehicle and I don't believe there are any cases where you can take more than one searchlight.

The searchlight rules do refer to 'a target' yes... but in the actual context of the rule as a whole, what it is saying is that when you acquire a target, it is illuminated.

So, you roll your spotting distance for your first target. If it is visible, you acquired the target. It is therefore illuminated.
You then roll your spotting distance for your next target. If it is visible, you acquired the target. It is therefore illuminated.
Rinse and repeat for as many different units as the vehicle can shoot at.

I think you're missing the part of nightfighting rules where "After you pick a target but before a unit fires". The searchlight does not work without shooting as you are specifically picking a target to shoot.

From the shooting phase p. 15 BRB. 1) Check line of sight and pick a target. This is the sequence that nightfight is interrupting. It doesn't say "pick a target" then you may pick another target, then pick another one and check range to the one you want.

1) You pick a target.
2) Roll the distance you can see.
3) if you can see the target it is illuminated. If its out of range of "illumination" no further action is allowed for that unit. If it is in range, you may shoot at the target only. You are not allowed to "pick another target" or take a chance to illuminate any other target.

Nemesor Dave wrote:
1) You pick a target.
2) Roll the distance you can see.
3) if you can see the target it is illuminated. If its out of range of "illumination" no further action is allowed for that unit. If it is in range, you may shoot at the target only. You are not allowed to "pick another target" or take a chance to illuminate any other target.

So even if you illuminate with a sponson on a Land Raider, the other sponson cannot try to illuminate?

You're missing that some units are able to fire at multiple targets. So step one can be repeated by a single unit.

Nemesor Dave wrote:I think you're missing the part of nightfighting rules where "After you pick a target but before a unit fires".

I'm missing what that has to do with my previous post, for sure.

The searchlight does not work without shooting as you are specifically picking a target to shoot.

I didn't claim otherwise.

From the shooting phase p. 15 BRB. 1) Check line of sight and pick a target. This is the sequence that nightfight is interrupting. It doesn't say "pick a target" then you may pick another target, then pick another one and check range to the one you want.

That's because in the normal run of things, a unit can only shoot at a single target.

If units that can split their fire are actually only ever allowed to pick a single target, what is the point in them being allowed to split their fire...?

To clarify, since I suspect that you have misinterpreted, the discussion on vehicles using searchlights on multiple targets was specifically to do with PotMS, which allows the vehicle to split fire.

insaniak wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:I think you're missing the part of nightfighting rules where "After you pick a target but before a unit fires".

I'm missing what that has to do with my previous post, for sure.

If you're not saying a single unit can illuminate multiple targets in a single shooting phase, then I agree.

insaniak wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:From the shooting phase p. 15 BRB. 1) Check line of sight and pick a target. This is the sequence that nightfight is interrupting. It doesn't say "pick a target" then you may pick another target, then pick another one and check range to the one you want.

That's because in the normal run of things, a unit can only shoot at a single target.

If units that can split their fire are actually only ever allowed to pick a single target, what is the point in them being allowed to split their fire...?

True, a unit that can split fire may choose two targets, but RAW are that if it fails to see the first target, "the unit" may not shoot at all that turn and loses the second chance to shoot.

insaniak wrote:
To clarify, since I suspect that you have misinterpreted, the discussion on vehicles using searchlights on multiple targets was specifically to do with PotMS, which allows the vehicle to split fire.

The important point for both is if you fail to see the first target, you cannot shoot at all with that unit so you don't get another chance to illuminate anything with the searchlight. For PotMS the searchlight only can illuminate the first target and never the second.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:
1) You pick a target.
2) Roll the distance you can see.
3) if you can see the target it is illuminated. If its out of range of "illumination" no further action is allowed for that unit. If it is in range, you may shoot at the target only. You are not allowed to "pick another target" or take a chance to illuminate any other target.

So even if you illuminate with a sponson on a Land Raider, the other sponson cannot try to illuminate?

You're missing that some units are able to fire at multiple targets. So step one can be repeated by a single unit.

Yes, you only have 1 searchlight and it may illuminate "a target" not "targets".

PotMS does not help if you fail with the first because:

P.95 of the BRB says "If the distance between the firing unit and their target is higher than the total rolled, the unit cannot fire at all in this Shooting phase..."

Nemesor Dave wrote:Yes, you only have 1 searchlight and it may illuminate "a target" not "targets".

Really? The SM codex for the vehicle wargear uses the plural.

P.95 of the BRB says "If the distance between the firing unit and their target is higher than the total rolled, the unit cannot fire at all in this Shooting phase..."

... because it has picked a target and failed to spot it, so cannot pick another one. PotMS and Long Fangs can pick a second target.

rigeld2 wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:Yes, you only have 1 searchlight and it may illuminate "a target" not "targets".

Really? The SM codex for the vehicle wargear uses the plural.

I'm looking at the Blood Angels codex. Its clearly a singular use. Can you quote it?

rigeld2 wrote:

P.95 of the BRB says "If the distance between the firing unit and their target is higher than the total rolled, the unit cannot fire at all in this Shooting phase..."

... because it has picked a target and failed to spot it, so cannot pick another one. PotMS and Long Fangs can pick a second target.

What does "the unit cannot fire at all this Shooting phase" mean to you? Pick a second target and fire? Fire other weapons as allowed by PotMS?

No, it means "cannot fire at all".

Long fangs:
1. Pick a target and roll
2. If you fail to roll the minimum this unit "cannot fire at all this shooting phase". The split fire is not a separate unit.

PotMS
1. Pick a target and roll.
2. If you fail to roll the minimum you may "fire one additional weapon than normal" and "the unit cannot fire at all". Since when Shaken or Stunned, PotMS doesn't allow "one additional weapon" to be fire, it doesn't here either. It cannot fire at all.

I'm interested in seeing if the SM codex allows for a single searchlight to see multiple targets. The blood angels entry only refers to the units "target" singular.

Nemesor Dave wrote:The important point for both is if you fail to see the first target, you cannot shoot at all with that unit so you don't get another chance to illuminate anything with the searchlight. For PotMS the searchlight only can illuminate the first target and never the second.

You seem to be assuming that the unit will always 'fail' the first roll...

PotMS allows the vehicle to shoot at two different targets. Assuming that it manages to spot both targets both targets will be illuminated, as the successful spotting roll means that in each case a target has been acquired.

If a unit is acquired as a target, it is illuminated by the spotlight.

insaniak wrote:

Nemesor Dave wrote:The important point for both is if you fail to see the first target, you cannot shoot at all with that unit so you don't get another chance to illuminate anything with the searchlight. For PotMS the searchlight only can illuminate the first target and never the second.

You seem to be assuming that the unit will always 'fail' the first roll...

PotMS allows the vehicle to shoot at two different targets. Assuming that it manages to spot both targets both targets will be illuminated, as the successful spotting roll means that in each case a target has been acquired.

If a unit is acquired as a target, it is illuminated by the spotlight.

I'm only showing what happens if the first try to spot a target fails and how it completely disrupts the units shooting.

You are incorrect that a single unit can spot more than one target regardless of PotMS. A searchlight RAW in the BA codex allows it to be used on a single target only. It says "A target". Is there any RAW case you see where a searchlight may be used on multiple targets?

Yes, there's a RAW case for the searchlight being used on multiple targets. I already pointed it out.

If a unit is acquired as a target, it is illuminated by the searchlight.

insaniak wrote:Yes, there's a RAW case for the searchlight being used on multiple targets. I already pointed it out.

If a unit is acquired as a target, it is illuminated by the searchlight.

From the BA codex "If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target, but having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight."

It is talking about 1 searchlight and 1 target. Nowhere does it mention multiple targets from a single unit or searchlight.

Another problem with the searchlight being used for multiple targets is that it makes no sense. Enemy units are constantly moving and the searchlight represents finding one and keeping the light on it so all my other units may fire at it.

If a single searchlight just needs to pass over an enemy for all my troop to see it, why not just illuminate the whole battlefield?

Nemesor Dave wrote:
Another problem with the searchlight being used for multiple targets is that it makes no sense. Enemy units are constantly moving and the searchlight represents finding one and keeping the light on it so all my other units may fire at it.

unless it illuminates the unit with it's search light, other friendly units fire at the same time, then it sweeps it's searchlight onto another unit.

As pointed out in many other threads on this board, things that happen sequentially in game phases don't necessarily mean that they occurred in that order in game time. All units open fire pretty much at the same time, units don't politely wait their turn while enemy units shoot their comrades one squad at a time.

If a single searchlight just needs to pass over an enemy for all my troop to see it, why not just illuminate the whole battlefield?

Unfortunately it's a searchlight, not a sun.

Edited for clarity

Nemesor Dave wrote:From the BA codex "If a vehicle has a searchlight it must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target, but having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight."

It is talking about 1 searchlight and 1 target. Nowhere does it mention multiple targets from a single unit or searchlight.

The PoTMS give us the exception to the 1 target rule, so if the unit with PoTMS spots two different units they both are lit with the spotlight.

Nemesor Dave wrote:Another problem with the searchlight being used for multiple targets is that it makes no sense. Enemy units are constantly moving and the searchlight represents finding one and keeping the light on it so all my other units may fire at it.

There are a multitude of rules that "make no sense" in 40K. The rules are an abstraction to allow us to play the game. The rules have nothing to do with real world Physics.

Nemesor Dave wrote:If a single searchlight just needs to pass over an enemy for all my troop to see it, why not just illuminate the whole battlefield?

Because the rules say you "must still use the night fighting rules to pick a target, but having acquired a target, will illuminate it with the searchlight." So your units only illuminate enemy units that they have acquired as a target

Nemesor Dave wrote:It is talking about 1 searchlight and 1 target. Nowhere does it mention multiple targets from a single unit or searchlight.

That's because as per the basic rules, you can only choose a single target in a turn.

When you acquire your second target, have you acquired a target?