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I can see the advantages of using a black primer - instant shadows.
I can see the advantages of using a white primer - vibrant colours.
Is the advantage of using a grey primer that you get (quite) vibrant colours and (some) shadows? i.e. does it do a bit of both of the advantages of black and white?

The advantage is that its not as blotchy as white and not as dark as black. Most grey primers are a light to medium grey as opposed to a dark grey.

I think white primer with a heavy black wash is the new black.

Means it's bright and crisp with shading still present in the recesses

i started out with white because of the vibrant colors then gave black a try but hated how dark everything was and how i couldn't see all the detail clearly, but it was good fro speed painting.

now i have moved to gray as well lol, i find it's not as difficult to work with as white is but allowes me to see and pick out all the fine detail in a mini whilst providing a good base for the colors to show up on. i guess i just like it cus i can see what i'm doing more then black n white feels like twice as much work lol

It has more to do with whats current in the painting circles then anything else, it also highly depends what minature game line your painting.

White gives your bright colors.
Black gives you a darker minature.
Grey will give you a more natural looking minature.

I'm using (thanks to Romain from Beasts Of War) a dual primer technique which is quite effective.

You prime black as usual, then do what is effectively a heavy zenith highlight with a grey primer. Picks out all the detail, makes deciding where to highlight a no brainer, and as long as your paint is thin enough, does a lot of shading for you too!

A quick primer (no pun intended) on color....

We see color because of the light that goes through the color and is bounced back to our eyes. The spectrum determines if it is red, yellow, blue or whatever. During that bounce it also picks up the primer color, which is why blacks look darker and whites look brighter (actually they aren't more vibrant, they are more chalky).

Values allow for a more believable dimensional painting. A mid grey is not in the extreme of white or black so to build on a grey primed surface means you wont have to do as much to get those highs and lows you want.

White is all color (primary) mixed in perfect mathematical calculation, but it is so precise that a computer cant really do the math, hence you get a warm or cool white. Black is the absence of color, but since we consider black to be a color it is actually an extremely dark blue or brown depending on the mineral used to make it.

The rest is just mixing and a whole lot of practice, prayer or luck (depending on which you believe in).

The thing is, for a lot of projects you are going to want both bright and shaded colors. When I used to use white or black primer I often found myself coating areas in codex grey anyways. Personally I find I rarely want a whole model to be bright OR dull, but usually want to go for contrast, with many parts dull but certain parts popping.

Grey just gives you more control. It is hard to rebase a black primed mini in white for bright areas, and hard to do the reverse on white primed mini's.

Grey allows you to easily pull off both on the same mini with a minimum of fuss.

And it isn't the 'new' black. Grey has been the primer of choice, and for many years it was difficult to find another option. White and black came in vogue in miniatures because it made simple shading easier for inexperienced painters. But grey has always been the standby. Hence the common color name 'primer grey'.


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Katana2665 wrote: White is all color (primary) mixed in perfect mathematical calculation, but it is so precise that a computer cant really do the math, hence you get a warm or cool white. Black is the absence of color, but since we consider black to be a color it is actually an extremely dark blue or brown depending on the mineral used to make it.

That...really isn't accurate at all. Firstly, white just happens to be the combination of colors that a) makes it difficult for our eyes to differentiate individual colors and b) is reflective enough that we don't consider it grey. The color "white" is going to be a different combination for every creature, and to a certain degree it changes even between people. Secondly, we can calculate it just fine, but it is rare in the real world, expensive to produce, and not usually worth the effort. And besides, since it is practically non-existent in the real world, why bother? You can get better effect with any of the various 'temperatures' of 'white'.

Black, when it comes to paints, is not the absence of color. While a material that could actually absorb all color would be very useful, it hasn't been created, and efforts in that direction don't produce paints. Black is the same as white, i.e. a combination of colors that makes it hard to differentiate individual colors and non-reflective enough that we don't consider it a grey. In painting white is to black as burgundy red is to pink. Same hue, different shade values.

riplikash wrote:The thing is, for a lot of projects you are going to want both bright and shaded colors. When I used to use white or black primer I often found myself coating areas in codex grey anyways. Personally I find I rarely want a whole model to be bright OR dull, but usually want to go for contrast, with many parts dull but certain parts popping.

Grey just gives you more control. It is hard to rebase a black primed mini in white for bright areas, and hard to do the reverse on white primed mini's.

Grey allows you to easily pull off both on the same mini with a minimum of fuss.

And it isn't the 'new' black. Grey has been the primer of choice, and for many years it was difficult to find another option. White and black came in vogue in miniatures because it made simple shading easier for inexperienced painters. But grey has always been the standby. Hence the common color name 'primer grey'.


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Katana2665 wrote: White is all color (primary) mixed in perfect mathematical calculation, but it is so precise that a computer cant really do the math, hence you get a warm or cool white. Black is the absence of color, but since we consider black to be a color it is actually an extremely dark blue or brown depending on the mineral used to make it.

That...really isn't accurate at all. Firstly, white just happens to be the combination of colors that a) makes it difficult for our eyes to differentiate individual colors and b) is reflective enough that we don't consider it grey. The color "white" is going to be a different combination for every creature, and to a certain degree it changes even between people. Secondly, we can calculate it just fine, but it is rare in the real world, expensive to produce, and not usually worth the effort. And besides, since it is practically non-existent in the real world, why bother? You can get better effect with any of the various 'temperatures' of 'white'.

Black, when it comes to paints, is not the absence of color. While a material that could actually absorb all color would be very useful, it hasn't been created, and efforts in that direction don't produce paints. Black is the same as white, i.e. a combination of colors that makes it hard to differentiate individual colors and non-reflective enough that we don't consider it a grey. In painting white is to black as burgundy red is to pink. Same hue, different shade values.

You guys are talking two different fields, comparing apples to oranges if you will....in physics and optics, yes white is the presence of all visible color on the light spectrum, and reflects all color back producing white. Black is the absence of color and absorbs all color, place a white object in direct sunlight and a black one and after about 20min the black object will be considerably warmer than the white one because it has absorbed more energy, in the form of light.

However the scientific principles do not apply so well as Rip has pointed out when it comes to pigment and art work....

Personally I try to avoid pure white and pure black unless I am doing a deep shadow or extreme highlight, they pure whites lack depth, as do pure blacks. I have found with white for example, if I want a warm white I will use a sand color, then work up to a ivory and finally a white on the extreme edge....The choice of what hue of white to use when painting is a stylistic one, contributing to the overall warm of cool effect of the final product. I think that primer you use should be taken into consideration of this effect, generally speaking if I want bright colors and vibrant warms and cools, I use white, if I want muted cools and warms I use black. I find gray to be a waste personally and it produces a rather drab effect for my taste.

I think the more relevant discussion to have about primer is the application of it, not the color..I think far too many people are applying the primer wrong, thus leading to many of the "beliefs" about certain primers.
Ashton

I'm undercoating in army painting bone, then applying a sepia wash for shading. I'm going for a bone / sand colour finish on my marines... haven't got very far though so not sure how it'll work out. At some point I think I'll be applying a yeallow wash to soften the edges.

I like using grey because vallejo air metal are a bit tranparent and using grey doesn't require to do another layer.

Hmm, I'm curious as to what it would look like then for some Blood Angels. So, what grey primers are people buying so I can look into some myself?

I usually prime with black, as it provides all the shadows for me

I think i'll try priming with white and putting a heavily watered down black wash over the top now to see what happens!

My biggest issue is that trying to base coat red on black has done nothing but frustrate me and it's too bright under a white primer.

I'm hoping grey would help my issue.

Red works nicely over a white primer... but it does need a pretty heavy wash once you've built up a solid colour

If you insist on painting over a dark primer, try undercoating with a dark brown first... You'll get a much better coverage.

Thank you all for your replies. It's really interesting to see different people's replies and responses and reasons why they do different things.

azreal13 wrote:I'm using (thanks to Romain from Beasts Of War) a dual primer technique which is quite effective.

You prime black as usual, then do what is effectively a heavy zenith highlight with a grey primer. Picks out all the detail, makes deciding where to highlight a no brainer, and as long as your paint is thin enough, does a lot of shading for you too!

I'd be really interested in seeing this. Could you post a picture of a mini that you have blacked and greyed so that I can see your 'starting off point'?

Katana2665 wrote: A quick primer (no pun intended) on color....

We see color because of the light that goes through the color and is bounced back to our eyes. The spectrum determines if it is red, yellow, blue or whatever. During that bounce it also picks up the primer color, which is why blacks look darker and whites look brighter (actually they aren't more vibrant, they are more chalky).

Values allow for a more believable dimensional painting. A mid grey is not in the extreme of white or black so to build on a grey primed surface means you wont have to do as much to get those highs and lows you want.

White is all color (primary) mixed in perfect mathematical calculation, but it is so precise that a computer cant really do the math, hence you get a warm or cool white. Black is the absence of color, but since we consider black to be a color it is actually an extremely dark blue or brown depending on the mineral used to make it.

The rest is just mixing and a whole lot of practice, prayer or luck (depending on which you believe in).

Thank you. That's a really interesting way of looking at it and makes a lot of sense.

riplikash wrote:The thing is, for a lot of projects you are going to want both bright and shaded colors. When I used to use white or black primer I often found myself coating areas in codex grey anyways. Personally I find I rarely want a whole model to be bright OR dull, but usually want to go for contrast, with many parts dull but certain parts popping.

Grey just gives you more control. It is hard to rebase a black primed mini in white for bright areas, and hard to do the reverse on white primed mini's.

Grey allows you to easily pull off both on the same mini with a minimum of fuss.

And it isn't the 'new' black. Grey has been the primer of choice, and for many years it was difficult to find another option. White and black came in vogue in miniatures because it made simple shading easier for inexperienced painters. But grey has always been the standby. Hence the common color name 'primer grey'.

Again, thank you for confirming what I thought.

If you like to use inks then white is the only way to go. Its a shame GW cancelled their inks though, they were very easy to work with and looked fantastic. I use reaper master series inks now, but feel they are inferior to the old GW inks.

Inking provides plenty of shading, leaving you with only a quick wash and a little dry brushing for very decent miniatures.

InyokaMadoda wrote:I'd be really interested in seeing this. Could you post a picture of a mini that you have blacked and greyed so that I can see your 'starting off point'?

Just hop over to the Beasts of War website and check out any of their recent painting tutorials. They're usually in several parts, but the first episode invariably starts from that "crude zenithal preshade" point. Romain's video tutorial on the priming technique itself is "members only," if memory serves, but you can see what he does with it quite clearly. I'd recommend either the Cyngar warjack or Confrontation gargoyle videos (think there's one for a Trollblood now, too, but I haven't watched it).

Shovan wrote:My biggest issue is that trying to base coat red on black has done nothing but frustrate me and it's too bright under a white primer.

I'm hoping grey would help my issue.

Dark Flesh = Red's best friend when painting onto Chaos Black

In answer to the OPs question. because grey is neutral. It's why most car makers user grey primers. It mixes perfectly with all colors in liquid too, that's why neutral grey in artists colors is also called "mixing grey"

Shovan wrote:My biggest issue is that trying to base coat red on black has done nothing but frustrate me and it's too bright under a white primer.

I'm hoping grey would help my issue.

I put a smidge of mechrite red and then went with red gore and got a deep red almost crimson and loved it =) you could also do blood red and it looks awesome (Of course YMMV and it's all in the eyes' of the beholder I suppose)

Use an airbrush. I use blood red over grey for infantry and blood red over black for vehicles. They look the same side by side.

I use red primer because i play nurgle

Katana2665 wrote: A quick primer (no pun intended) on color....

We see color because of the light that goes through the color and is bounced back to our eyes. The spectrum determines if it is red, yellow, blue or whatever. During that bounce it also picks up the primer color, which is why blacks look darker and whites look brighter (actually they aren't more vibrant, they are more chalky).

Values allow for a more believable dimensional painting. A mid grey is not in the extreme of white or black so to build on a grey primed surface means you wont have to do as much to get those highs and lows you want.

White is all color (primary) mixed in perfect mathematical calculation, but it is so precise that a computer cant really do the math, hence you get a warm or cool white. Black is the absence of color, but since we consider black to be a color it is actually an extremely dark blue or brown depending on the mineral used to make it.

The rest is just mixing and a whole lot of practice, prayer or luck (depending on which you believe in).

You are thinking of Light. Not paint.

Light:
White is all colors mixed together.
Black is absence of color.

Paint:
White is the absence of color
Black is all colors are mixed together.

I don't prime...simple as...

azreal13 wrote:I'm using (thanks to Romain from Beasts Of War) a dual primer technique which is quite effective.

You prime black as usual, then do what is effectively a heavy zenith highlight with a grey primer. Picks out all the detail, makes deciding where to highlight a no brainer, and as long as your paint is thin enough, does a lot of shading for you too!

Yes that also works with dark grey and a little dash of white