Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Think about it. Humanity goes to the stars. Most worlds will not be terra-formable. Those that are would probably not be perfect conversions to earthlike worlds. It is a question whether a world that is only moderately terraformable could even sustain a human population for a long period, but, 40K assumes that this is possible.

So, some worlds would tend to have heavier gravity. Again, man could probably not survive if it was too heavy, but let's say he could handle 1.1 to 1.2 g.

It seems to me that men living under such conditions might eventually become shorter, more compact, and stronger to deal with the environmental situation. Maybe it wouldn't work out this way, but it's at least a resonable speculation. They might even tend to live underground, as the subtrata would probably be stronger, because of the effects of the high gravity.

Larry Niven gives an example of the Jinxians in his Known Space universe as a muscular, high gravity race, though he departs in making them have shorter life spans, because of the pressure on their hearts.

Would they likely develop customs and attitudes making them like Norse Dwarfs? Probably not, and that is mildly silly, but, hey, it's 40K.

However, compare them to space hobbits, space ogres, space orcs and space elves, and they are not even on the same scale of silliness. The only reason I can think of for why people believe the Squats to be sillier, is because GW said they were, and fanboyism took over from there.

However, I'd like to hear the counter-argument.

Cheers.

P.S. Why anyone would start a flame-war over such a benign question, I can't imagine, but... this is 40K. So I'll just say, please don't. Let's keep it light hearted.

TRICYCLES HO!



And that's all I have to say.

Besides for the fact that Squats don't fit at all.

Space hobbits, space ogres, space orcs, and space elves all had something which could be salvaged.

Squats had been painted into a corner as bearded biker midgets, with the majority of their tech being portrayed in Epic rather than 40k proper.

Chowderhead wrote:TRICYCLES HO!



And that's all I have to say.

Besides for the fact that Squats don't fit at all.

And orks of the same period (1ed) had armed dune buggies. You could also buy a ratling with a chef's hat, wooden spoon, and laspistol. Whacha gonna do?

However, saying they don't fit...? Original 40K was Tolkien in spacesuits, plus a few additions like the jokaero and primitive 'nids. For the most part, it's still Tolkien in space suits. How do dwarves not fit into that?

Wasn't that they were silly, most of 40k was back then (sort of still is), but that they apparently couldn't find them a niche other than just dwarves in space; a sort of crappy excuse when you consider at least the Orks and Eldar.

Now days I think they could have fit in as a sort of mech heavy force, however it's likely taken up by guard now. Though I'd think they'd be less in numbers and be more of an elite force, but that brings them into marine territory.

It's really not Tolkien in space suits now. The archetypes might still exist, but the concept has been altered dramatically.

Ratlings, for example, are a divergent branch of humanity. As are Ogryns. They're not unique races of their own.

Orks are a fungoid based race which reproduces through shedding spores off their skin before they're finally killed.

Eldar are kind of/sort of still close to the concept of Elves.

Zinderneuf wrote:

Chowderhead wrote:TRICYCLES HO!



And that's all I have to say.

Besides for the fact that Squats don't fit at all.

And orks of the same period (1ed) had armed dune buggies. You could also buy a ratling with a chef's hat, wooden spoon, and laspistol. Whacha gonna do?

However, saying they don't fit...? Original 40K was Tolkien in spacesuits, plus a few additions like the jokaero and primitive 'nids. For the most part, it's still Tolkien in space suits. How do dwarves not fit into that?

Original 40k, it fits.

Modern 40k, it does not.

The most fun I ever had in a 40K campaign was a horde of orks ravaging through a Squat subsector. All of the battles wwere fought in underground chambers, which combined a lot of terrain with a very dungeon-y feel. Add to that there were relics of Slann (boy, am I dating myself ;-) ) tech in some of the planets, and it was an absolute blast.

I was disappointed when the Squats were removed, and especially for the reason GW gave. Given their willingness to retcon at the drop of a hat, I felt that they could have tried a little harder.

As to how they fit in, most of the battles I played in that involved Squats were not biker-gang wars. They tended to be sieges of mines, space stations, juggernaut vehicles, etc., as described above. When pitted against orks in those games, I thought the feel was perfect, like a high tech version of Tolkien's War of the Dwarves and Orcs.

My nostalgia anyway. When I can, I still drag 'em out and play 1ed.

Well the name itself invokes the image of somebody preparing themselves for a bowel movement.
And they look like they smell really, really bad.
Can't say I miss them.

Joey wrote:Well the name itself invokes the image of somebody preparing themselves for a bowel movement.
And they look like they smell really, really bad.
Can't say I miss them.

As opposed to, say, ratlings? ;-)


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kanluwen wrote: Ratlings, for example, are a divergent branch of humanity. As are Ogryns. They're not unique races of their own.

Same with Squats. They were also variant humans.

And BEASTMEN? Why would humanity evolve into bipedal goats?

Chowderhead wrote:
Original 40k, it fits.

Modern 40k, it does not.

The concept as originally portrayed 'back in the day' does not fit in "modern" 40K.

Can it be updated and made super delicious awesome x 2 for 'modern" 40K?

Of course it can.

Zinderneuf wrote:

Kanluwen wrote: Ratlings, for example, are a divergent branch of humanity. As are Ogryns. They're not unique races of their own.

Same with Squats. They were also variant humans.

And BEASTMEN? Why would humanity evolve into bipedal goats?

Chaos?

They did reasonably well in Epic, which is where most of the efforts at expansion were based. The original Battle of Golgotha between Yarrick and Ghaz was actually a battle report between Andy Chambers and Jervis using Orks and Squats/Imperials respectively.

However Squats had little to distinguish themselves from humans in 40K scale, and their Epic goodies were obviously too large for the scale of 40K in that era.

Zinderneuf wrote:

Joey wrote:Well the name itself invokes the image of somebody preparing themselves for a bowel movement.
And they look like they smell really, really bad.
Can't say I miss them.

As opposed to, say, ratlings? ;-)

I would be more than happy for ratlings and ogryns to leave 40k for good. They're both "weird". Considering humanity has committed genocide over trvial matters (no need for any examples, I'm sure), I find it incredibly hard to beleive they'd be tolerant of such huge differences in physicality.
And ogyns being stupid doesn't make any sense either. I suspect this is because insecure weak little nerds like to think that anyone with muscles is a blundering neanderthal, but even so there's no reason for increased muscle mass to automatically mean a decrease in intelligence.
Realistically ogryns would overwealm humanity and ratlings would be wiped out as inferior. It don't make sense!

Realistically, in 40k terms, this would have happened.



I'm unsure why they tolerate these mutants yet the others get a cozy fire.

n0t_u wrote:Realistically, in 40k terms, this would have happened.



I'm unsure why they tolerate these mutants yet the others get a cozy fire.

Because Ogryns make exemplary bullet sponges AND they are too stupid to turn traitor.
Really, its a win-win for the imperium. They get good meat shields who are too stupid to question orders, and if they die it won't matter, because they are mutants and not people.

Then they try to make them smarter.

n0t_u wrote:Then they try to make them smarter.

Oh right, bone 'eads
Now that's just silly. Aren't the bone 'eads still too stupid to question orders though? I thought the upgrade was so that they could relay orders to their fellow ogryns more efficiently.

I think it mentioned it boosted them to the intelligence of a small child. Still controllable and hilarious if they have to ride in a Chimera.

Not a problem though, because Imperial fluff that has nothing to do with power armor is quite mutable. I daresay possibly even laughable...

Squats both CAN and SHOULD be returned to 40K. The only problem with them back in the day, was that they had a very comical aspect to them. Of course, everyone except the SM and Eldar had a comical aspect to them back then. All they would have to do is drop the redneck space biker imagery. There is absolutely nothing wrong with just porting the Dwarves from WHFB into 40K. The current edition of Dwarves are a solid foundation and can be easily tweaked to fit into 40K with no resulting silliness. They brought Tomb Kings into 40K, why not Dwarves?

GW's claim that they couldn't find a theme for the Squats in 40K is false, since they were being handled well in Epic. What was wrong with their Epic fluff and portrayal? Nothing at all, that's what. But the GW game designers were just straight up too lazy to translate the Epic fluff into 40K and give the Squats another go. They were also too lazy to sculpt up an entire army of new models (though a few test pieces were put together that look very good for the era).

Why should they, when they can just release another SM codex and make more money off of already existing models?

squidhills wrote:Squats both CAN and SHOULD be returned to 40K. The only problem with them back in the day, was that they had a very comical aspect to them. Of course, everyone except the SM and Eldar had a comical aspect to them back then. All they would have to do is drop the redneck space biker imagery. There is absolutely nothing wrong with just porting the Dwarves from WHFB into 40K. The current edition of Dwarves are a solid foundation and can be easily tweaked to fit into 40K with no resulting silliness. They brought Tomb Kings into 40K, why not Dwarves?

Squats aren't coming back. The Squats you probably didn't know are dead and gone--and good riddance at that!

I'd also suggest that if you want to claim that "Tomb Kings were brought into 40k, why not Dwarves?" you do a bit of research into the background.

Dwarves, right now, do exist in 40k's background. They're called the Demiurg.
Demiurg, quite thankfully, are a fairly fleshed out concept. The only thing is they have not been represented on the tabletop. They're a wandering race, living in great fortress ships. They're responsible for the Tau developing ion weaponry, and have occasionally aided Imperial ships in fighting Tyranid or Ork fleets.

There are quite a few races like this, which have a background presence but no tabletop presence.

GW's claim that they couldn't find a theme for the Squats in 40K is false, since they were being handled well in Epic. What was wrong with their Epic fluff and portrayal? Nothing at all, that's what. But the GW game designers were just straight up too lazy to translate the Epic fluff into 40K and give the Squats another go. They were also too lazy to sculpt up an entire army of new models (though a few test pieces were put together that look very good for the era).

Except being almost exactly the same as the Imperial Guard, and their Epic portrayal relying upon warmachines--which we've only just started seeing become "mainstream" 40k?

Why should they, when they can just release another SM codex and make more money off of already existing models?

This is just a silly stance to take. It could have absolutely nothing at all to do with the fact that 40k as it stands is already crowded with concepts and ideas, with little to no room for anything new?

Cripes, if GW wanted to they could have released an Adeptus Mechanicus army by now and probably gotten a huge shot in the arm, profitwise. But what niche would they take?

Kanluwen wrote:
Squats aren't coming back. The Squats you probably didn't know are dead and gone--and good riddance at that!

I'd also suggest that if you want to claim that "Tomb Kings were brought into 40k, why not Dwarves?" you do a bit of research into the background.

Dwarves, right now, do exist in 40k's background. They're called the Demiurg.
Demiurg, quite thankfully, are a fairly fleshed out concept. The only thing is they have not been represented on the tabletop. They're a wandering race, living in great fortress ships. They're responsible for the Tau developing ion weaponry, and have occasionally aided Imperial ships in fighting Tyranid or Ork fleets.

I know bloody well about Hive Fleet Ninja and the Demiurg. Nothing there that says the Squats can't be brought back. The Tau hold less territory than the Squats did at their height; why not say "Well, with IoM help, a handful of holds survived the Tyranid attack. They are trying to reclaim what used to be theirs, but they don't have the numbers they once had. If they can't take some new worlds, they will go the way of the Eldar..."

It's called a "retcon" Kanluwen. After 25 years of 40K, I would think you would have encountered one or two before.

The Demiurg are a fleshed out concept? So were the Squats, at least in Epic. Yes, their army relied on huge war machines, but there is no reason that couldn't have been scaled down to 40K. As for what niche could they fill? How about the same niche they fill in WHFB? An army of guys with better than average CC skill, low Initiative, good Toughness, and average BS. They don't move around a lot on the tabletop (they can never run!) but they have a lot of guns to shoot you with (but their guns are IoM-level tech, not Tau-level, so they don't exterminate an entire army each shooting phase).

As for Newcrons not being TK in space... Really? You really think there's no connection? A race obsessed with death has a huge empire, loses that empire, goes into a long sleep, and re-awakens to fight amongst itself (and others) to reclaim what it has lost? And the armies consist of soulless automatons led by powerful kings who have distinct personalities? Oh, and all the pseudo-Egyptian SC names, too?

squidhills wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Squats aren't coming back. The Squats you probably didn't know are dead and gone--and good riddance at that!

I'd also suggest that if you want to claim that "Tomb Kings were brought into 40k, why not Dwarves?" you do a bit of research into the background.

Dwarves, right now, do exist in 40k's background. They're called the Demiurg.
Demiurg, quite thankfully, are a fairly fleshed out concept. The only thing is they have not been represented on the tabletop. They're a wandering race, living in great fortress ships. They're responsible for the Tau developing ion weaponry, and have occasionally aided Imperial ships in fighting Tyranid or Ork fleets.

I know bloody well about Hive Fleet Ninja and the Demiurg. Nothing there that says the Squats can't be brought back. The Tau hold less territory than the Squats did at their height; why not say "Well, with IoM help, a handful of holds survived the Tyranid attack. They are trying to reclaim what used to be theirs, but they don't have the numbers they once had. If they can't take some new worlds, they will go the way of the Eldar..."

It's called a "retcon" Kanluwen. After 25 years of 40K, I would think you would have encountered one or two before.

Sure, there are plenty of retcons. But there's one which has remained consistent--and likely will out of simple spite by this point, driven by the people who kept the "joke" of pestering the game developers at events with demands for the Squats to be returned.
The Squats are DEAD.The Demiurg are the "Dwarves in Space".

The Demiurg are a fleshed out concept? So were the Squats, at least in Epic. Yes, their army relied on huge war machines, but there is no reason that couldn't have been scaled down to 40K.

And you don't see the issue with this?

Epic works just fine for Squats--but 40k didn't. The simple fact is that, contrary to belief, it wasn't "simple laziness". The developers thought they had royally screwed up the concept and didn't want a joke army.

Orks, while certainly having a bit of silly to them, did at least have that whole "We kill for fun" thing going on.

As for what niche could they fill? How about the same niche they fill in WHFB? An army of guys with better than average CC skill, low Initiative, good Toughness, and average BS. They don't move around a lot on the tabletop (they can never run!) but they have a lot of guns to shoot you with (but their guns are IoM-level tech, not Tau-level, so they don't exterminate an entire army each shooting phase).

And you don't see the problem of the niche?

So what you've done is create another IG/Tau army with "better than average CC skill, low Initiative, and good Toughness".

As for Newcrons not being TK in space... Really? You really think there's no connection? A race obsessed with death has a huge empire, loses that empire, goes into a long sleep, and re-awakens to fight amongst itself (and others) to reclaim what it has lost? And the armies consist of soulless automatons led by powerful kings who have distinct personalities? Oh, and all the pseudo-Egyptian SC names, too?

And I'm the one who needs to research the background?

The majority of Necrons(not "Newcrons") willingly gave themselves to the C'Tan, and created their "deathless empire". Those who did not were basically forced into a shiny new body and turned into a Warrior.
The Tomb Kings were forcibly given their "deathless empire" by Nagash the Great Necromancer, who basically killed and then raised the entirety of Nehekara.

There is a major difference in how that works. I should also add that the Tomb Kings do not "awaken to reclaim what it has lost". They fight to keep what they have.

The best hope for "squats" coming back is the rumor I heard a while back about the Demiurg being added as another inducted race to go with the Tau.

The only comparison between current Necrons and TK is the aesthetics, they look similar. If you look at how each army is designed to fight, they are very different from each other.

Kanluwen wrote:Epic works just fine for Squats--but 40k didn't. The simple fact is that, contrary to belief, it wasn't "simple laziness". The developers thought they had royally screwed up the concept and didn't want a joke army.

So what you've done is create another IG/Tau army with "better than average CC skill, low Initiative, and good Toughness".

The majority of Necrons(not "Newcrons") willingly gave themselves to the C'Tan, and created their "deathless empire". Those who did not were basically forced into a shiny new body and turned into a Warrior.
The Tomb Kings were forcibly given their "deathless empire" by Nagash the Great Necromancer, who basically killed and then raised the entirety of Nehekara.

There is a major difference in how that works. I should also add that the Tomb Kings do not "awaken to reclaim what it has lost". They fight to keep what they have.

Condensed quotes...

Firstly, the army was only a joke army because GW was too lazy to re-envision them. Just because it was a joke in 40K doesn't mean it can't be made a serious army in the next codex. The Orks are a prime example of a joke army being re-envisioned into a non-joke army. The Orks of 5th edition are similar to the Orks of 2nd edition only in the color of their skin. And even that got a shade or two darker...

There is a difference between the IG and Tau and how the (theoretical) Squats would play. Guard can drown you in tanks or men. They are average in CC and average at range. Their basic gun is lower-than average for strength (3 may be the average for BS, WS, s, etc, but it's below par for weapon damage). They would prefer to shoot you, but they can get by in a pinch in CC due to sheer numbers. The Tau have crap for CC, average BS, and absurdly powerful guns. They want to shoot you because they know they are dead in CC. The theoretical Squats would have average BS and below-par weapon strength, but a large enough volume of it that you couldn't ignore their shooting. They want you to get into CC where they are about as hard as Orks, they just shoot at you so you will run closer to them... just like in WHFB, actually.

And before you repeat the belief that the theoretical Squats would be no different than IG and Tau, and thus do not fill a nice, how different are the Eldar to the Tau? Frankly, if it's not DE, MEQ, or Orks, most armies can play a very similar way to each other.

I'll call the new Necrons "Newcrons" if I want. Especially since I actually really love their new fluff. The ancient space Terminators were cool, but they had zero personality. Now they can have some character and each army can have a feel of its own. I heartily approve of the Newcrons. But I also know they are TK in space. The only difference you've cited in their fluff is that the TK were raised by Nagash, and the Newcrons voluntarily served the C'tan.

That's it.

But the end result is the same: That which created them no longer has a hold of them. They war amongst themselves amidst the ruins of their former empire. The army consists of mindless drones led by a powerful king. They have pseudo-Egyptian names. Oh! And their soldiers can get back up after being killed! Maybe if that last one wasn't a factor, you'd have a point. But unfortunately, it is a factor. The Newcrons are the WHFB Egyptian Undead In Spaaaaaace.

And there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with that, because it actually works within the context of the universe.

I don't know where in the world this idea that the "too lazy" thing comes from.

Squats were a mess. Epic does not necessarily translate to 40k.

squidhills wrote:


There is a difference between the IG and Tau and how the (theoretical) Squats would play. Guard can drown you in tanks or men. They are average in CC and average at range. Their basic gun is lower-than average for strength (3 may be the average for BS, WS, s, etc, but it's below par for weapon damage). They would prefer to shoot you, but they can get by in a pinch in CC due to sheer numbers. The Tau have crap for CC, average BS, and absurdly powerful guns. They want to shoot you because they know they are dead in CC. The theoretical Squats would have average BS and below-par weapon strength, but a large enough volume of it that you couldn't ignore their shooting. They want you to get into CC where they are about as hard as Orks,

So a bit like space marines then?

Probably more like Tau Marines.

Kanluwen wrote:I don't know where in the world this idea that the "too lazy" thing comes from.

Squats were a mess. Epic does not necessarily translate to 40k.

Well, let's see.... 2nd Edition Orks are a slapstick comedy routine. 3rd edition Orks got seriously re-vamped into something serious.

2nd Edition (Black Codex) Chaos was a mess. Beastmen, Minotaurs, Cultists, Marines, Daemons, etc. The 2nd Edition CSM codex streamlines the whole affair. 3rd edition even more so.

2nd Edition: No Dark Eldar... 3rd Edition: Dark Eldar! (and in their first incarnation, DE played like regular Eldar with worse armor saves).

With so many armies being heavily re-worked, or in the case of the Dark Eldar, being created from the ground up, the only excuse for NOT doing the same to the Squats (heavily re-working them) is laziness and/or disinterest. The Squats worked fine in Epic and not just from a gameplay standpoint (which I know wouldn't translate to 40K). Their fluff was much less "drunken redneck biker gang" in Epic than it was in 40K. It would not have been hard to re-work the Epic fluff into the 40K fluff. BOOM! Suddenly the Squats aren't a "joke" army anymore. Squats are only regarded as a joke today, because everyone remembers them as a bunch of drunken redneck bikers. They were a bunch of drunken redneck bikers, not because that is the only way Dwarves can possibly be portrayed in spaaaace, but because GW never tried (in 40K) to make them anything else. If Orks had been dropped in 2nd edition, everyone would consider them a joke army today because they were very comedic back then.

The idea that Squats were a mess, therefore they could never be worked into 40K blatantly ignores the fact that GW has radically altered armies in the past (Newcrons, anyone?). They did it before. They will do it again. They should have done it to the Squats. The only reason they didn't is that they couldn't be bothered to do so. GW has stated that the Squats sold well enough when compared to other armies of the day, so they weren't overlooked because they weren't selling. It would have taken less effort to translate the Epic fluff into 40K fluff, than it would to create an entire race from scratch (Dark Eldar). The fact that GW chose to create an all-new race, rather than tweak an existing one smacks of laziness.

Especially when you consider they have created 2 more armies since then (Tau and Necrons).

Could GW bring the Squats back today? They could, but I will concede that the number of armies in existence now makes that difficult. Too many new molds, too many new rules, for how much profit? So they won't bring back the Squats (at least, not as their own army).

But they could have updated them back in 1995. There were 3 fewer races then, and they already had an idea of what to do with the race.