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Which POM exemplars are the best?
I have a full unit of cinerators but don't know weather to get errants or knights exemplar or a unit of cinerators.
Also which senschal (I don't know how you spell it) is the best?
I will be using them with either pkreos or ekreos

The errant sen. does very nice things for the errants, which is part of what makes them a well respected unit, but is also worth it on his own.

The errants are very good under pkreoss, as his feat helps them actually hit things at range.

The regular sen is pretty completely overpriced, I wouldn't bother with it at first.

They all serve different roles.

Cinerators are probably the weakest of the bunch. They get extra move if they're hit and if the enemy is bunched up, they get CF on things near by. They're meh with either Kreoss TBH.

Bastions are a tarpit that are damned hard to kill. It can be done quickly but it's hard to do. They are also weapon master and reach. Both them and the Cinerators are medium base so they block trample. They love eKreoss, biblically.

Knight Exemplars want to lose 5/6 models to leave you with a single super solo who can wreck face. The problem with them is that a well played spray, thresher, AoE or anything else that kills multiple models in one activation is going to bypass the buffing of that unit until that attack is completed. The Seneshal gets buffs from people dying around him, and can be unkillable if infantry is dying around him. However, it's easy to bypass his ability with order of how things die around him. Like the Cinerators, ok but mostly meh with pKreoss. Getting them to combat is hard with eKreoss but they will wreck when they get there.

Exemplar Errants are probably the best infantry unit in the Menoth lineup. No particular model dies unless you want it too, they have a magic ranged attack, and weapon master. The Seneshal makes them even nastier. They work well with either Kreoss to get auto hitting weapon master shots or knockdown shots with the xbows. They are by no means an autoinclude though for either (pKreoss wants Deliverers and and Redeemers over them, eKreoss gets more out of daughters for the feat turn kills)

Ok thanks now its between knights exemplar ans errants
I will get both seneshals though.

A Full Unit + UA of Exemplar Errants is quite likely the single best infantry unit in the game.

They have great mat and are weapon masters. They have blessed magical crossbows with decent rat let alone they have quickwork also, plus they have access to hunter. They have advanced deploy and pathfinder, both among the best utility abilities in the game. Defensively they are fearless(pretty huge to have this) have self sacrifice allowing for complete negation of certain rules(effects that trigger on killing an enemy model such as berserker). They are immune to ENEMY spells only, which allows defenders ward(or stealth) to be cast on them and combined with their already decent defensive stats puts them in upper tier defense for single wound infantry as they are basically immune to blast damage and have high enough defense that only direct shots will hit them, let alone most models will miss them on average anyway. They also have access to rhupert(tough when you don't need self sac) or +1 defense(when you do need self sac) the book/gravus(no knockdown) defensively. Let alone eKreoss makes them immune to continuous effects, like its seriously bonkers how great these guys are.

Every time I look at Menoth I simply marvel that such a unit exists and would gladly trade my winterguard, kayazy, bane thralls, nihilators, fennblades, boomhowlers for them.

Everyone's pretty much stated the important bits, but just a few more notes:

If you're going to go Exemplar heavy, go eKreoss and then you'll probably want to consider his Tier list. It's insane the things a Tier 4 eKreoss list can do to your opponent.

Remember that Exemplar Senechals are first and foremost Jack/Beast Hunters. They only get that 3rd attack from hitting the same target twice and they'll generally be killing anything else in one swing. Don't let them get bogged down in a fight with infantry, that's what your units are for.

SilverSaint wrote:

Every time I look at Menoth I simply marvel that such a unit exists and would gladly trade my winterguard, kayazy, bane thralls, nihilators, fennblades, boomhowlers for them.

I don't know. Can you imagine faction Boomhowler's for Menoth?
Or Kayazy? Gang plus Eye of Menoth? Bane Thrall style debuffs
and weaponmasters? BERSERK NIHILATORS WITH EITHER KREOSS???

malfred wrote:

SilverSaint wrote:

Every time I look at Menoth I simply marvel that such a unit exists and would gladly trade my winterguard, kayazy, bane thralls, nihilators, fennblades, boomhowlers for them.

I don't know. Can you imagine faction Boomhowler's for Menoth?
Or Kayazy? Gang plus Eye of Menoth? Bane Thrall style debuffs
and weaponmasters? BERSERK NIHILATORS WITH EITHER KREOSS???

I mostly considered this from the other faction point using these sort of thoughts:

I am more considering how awesome IF errants in khador would be with like butcher or irusk, let alone battlelust, feats, auto tough so you can choose between self sac and tough...its just bonkers then. Yeah you can throw in Kayazy and give them say DW and eye of menoth, but its not that big of a deal compared to almost completely AoE immune, spell immune errants who can also have stealth with Thyra or DW with a lot, just a different style within the faction vs an entire breakage in my mind.

Or Errants with Krea giving them an unmitigatable(gotta remove the model with the animus) +2/+2 vs ranged along with death march or last stand. Throw them in a xerxis list and they get DW too, then you have 2 insane units immune to spells with great defensive stats, plus access to his +3 dmg spell and his feat....its scary. Now yeah Nihilators with eKreoss would be insane(autohitting), but they have to get there and in most cases they wouldn't now that you lost your super screen in errants. With pKreoss it wouldn't be as big as big a deal, but still huge. With most any other warcaster in the faction it wouldn't really matter. They are like a better/large unit of knights exemplars, so you would lose a great unit and get an upgrade to a current one.

With Cryx it wouldn't be as a big a deal as they lack buffs so thralls and errants get the same benefits from the debuffs and each faction would love the others unit, but man eGoreshade with elite cadre errants would be more LoL then bane thralls. There is also blackspot with errants bows/quickwork so they make use of it plus access to stealth again with the witches and eyegore making them super bane thralls basically. On the other hand menoth would then have no real pathfinder with bane thralls creating a considerable weakness, but DW bane thralls would never die from AoE again most likely. Add in a lack of tartarus then and yeah, it just seems like an inferior trade as you lose crossbows, higher mat but gain 2 powder, and trade self sac for stealth. The pop n drop and jacks would be better as you could lower the armor by another 2 though.

Switching out sentinels for errants...well menoth would love that and ret would cry even more then they do now so we can't have that.

Switching ANY meleeish unit in Cygnar(precursor is probably the closest) for an actually insane melee unit like errants would make cygnar the best faction in the game IMO...something I am not a fan of.

So I would love me some faction boomhowlers for menoth at a higher cost(say 11 or 12 points instead of 9) then they are now to compensate for the book and I would be like that blows as you have 4+ tough with the book but that is an incredibly expensive unit and I can kill the book so its not all terrible, but now Reznik can be way more survivable and playable which I love. They still lack the errants offensive punch, pathfinder, magical/blessed ranged weapons/rat/range, self sac, and immunity to spells...so I don't need to fear them, but I would rage beyond belief if merc boomhowlers started working for menoth due to the attendant priest as they would be unbelievable then with immunity to enemy spells, DW, and the book putting them LOL so broken tarpit level.

So after thinking about the boomhowlers I have come to the conclusion that Menoth needs a viable medium base 10 man infantry unit...like bloodgorgers, any troll unit really, so then I can field reznik and feel like I am not going to be crushed at range instantly. Yeah there are bastions, but they are SOOO slow and much less survivable then I like...maybe if they got a form of bastions with shield wall, basically Exemplar Cataphract Cetrati that are either 6 men at 8 wounds, or 10 men at 1 wound each....Reznik brick would be awesome fun with some jacks. Like a more jack heavy form of a Xersis Brick with some neat tools in witchhound and his feat.

My point was that Errants are where they need to be, just
as the other models are.

I cant say enough of how good Errants are.

Pathfinder, spell immune.*enemy spells*


Self Sacrifice... Warbeast with sprint charges.. oh.. im sorry you cant use sprint, you didnt kill anything.. i used Self Sacrifice.

Bane lord tarter.. Sorry no free bane thralls for you.

I love my unit of them.

Ok so errants with UA sound amazing!
But I like the look or knights exemplar more,
I will provs get both units with UA for errants and knights exemplar seneschal.

So something not said is how different Knights and Errants are. Errants are a tarpit, versatile toolbox unit that happens to have the best tools in the box for each scenario. Knights have 1 single focus...killing stuff, thus have have a single tool in the box and its a nicer tool then errants, but not that much nicer. They also rely on having all of them die(and boy do they die easy) but 1 or 2 so you get the maximum buff.

In this regard you almost never take Knights Exemplar over Errants until you have either 1) a unit of errants already 2) another tarpit unit like temple flameguard or even zealots 3) even if you have zealots or TFG, you still might take errants over exemplars because they are so good. Knights do cost less(2 units of Knights for a single full errants + UA) so if you hve 5 pts left they are a decent choice, but so is Gorman + eEiryess, Gravus, a Repenter + mechanic/wrack, etc etc.

So errants are more versatile so I will probably get either one unit and flameguard cleansers or two units of errants.

Exemplar are great in certain circumstances, but with Errants, they fill that niche of highly versatile and pretty good at it. Buying the whole set is pretty gross...

origarmi chicken wrote:So errants are more versatile so I will probably get either one unit and flameguard cleansers or two units of errants.

I would never buy more then a single Full Unit of Errants + UA. You can only have 1 UA, except for a tier list I think, so the 2nd unit isn't worth it IMO as there are plenty of stuff to spend your points on. Especially since you are new.

So one unit of errants with UA.
Are the cleansers any good? Or what other unit? As I really only have jacks and 1 unit so far.

I would simply play some with the errants + a jack or 2. Then proxy stuff(cleansers) and see what you think and form opinions based off that before buying anything else.

The 'Total Package' for Errants is generally a full unit + UA, Errant Seneschal, Covenant of Menoth, and Rhupert Carvolo. This gives you the resiliency offered by Self Sacrifice, Sacred Ward from the standard, Quick Work from the UA, Hunter from the Seneschal, and the option of an additional point of defense or tough from Rhupert.

When you have Rhupert sing tough on the Errants, the Covenant also allows them to not be knocked down when they make their tough check - and I believe since you are allowed to determine what order effects resolve in that you can make a tough check on an Errant before you allocate a wound with Self Sacrifice (but you can't tough check the self sacrifice, as it wasn't caused by an enemy attack and it automatically destroys the Errant).

If you want a more offensive bent, you can give auto-fire to all of the Errant's weapons. While they generally will kill most troops in melee, the option of being able to sit back and shoot with their crossbows or make quick work attacks on jacks, support models, or warcasters behind the enemy's front lines is amazing. The fire just increases the damage you can do.

And that's not even talking about warcaster buffs. Defenders Ward on Errants is an evil, evil thing...

So I will get errants with UA and Mabey the seneschal
And another unit
What goes in ekreos' teir list?

origarmi chicken wrote:So I will get errants with UA and Mabey the seneschal
And another unit
What goes in ekreos' teir list?

T2 requires 2 units of Knights Exemplars(NOT Exemplars in general), grants KE advance move.

T3 requires 4 units of ANY Exemplars, gives a free seneschal of your choice in types.

T4 requires Fire of Salvation and gives you 2" additional deployment zone.

Outside of that, he's allowed anything exemplar(including Rhoven with his Exemplary bodyguards), daughters, vassals mechanik, and a few other units I don't remember because I never bring anything but exemplars.

Edit: he's allowed flameguard( cleansers and spearmen), sunburst crew, and any non-character jacks in addition to the above. The list wrecks serious faces and is one of the few lists that can almost run itself like a 40K list. ALMOST.

While conventional wisdom does indeed say to put full Errants+UA+Seneschal+Reckoner in each and every list, you might want to consider asking yourself if you really want to simply follow the "cookie-cutter" Menoth build, which, let's be honest here, uses Errants as a crutch. As you play more games and expand your collection, you'll find that the Errants are not, in fact, the best unit in each and every situation, and that there are times when it is more than appropriate to use a unit like, say, Exemplar Cinnerators.

For instance, the caster who is quickly becoming my new favorite, Vindictus, LOVES Cinnerators. True Path makes them easily fast enough to engage when are where you want them to (especially with Relentless Advance), Defenders Ward makes them extremely annoying to kill, and having 8 damages boxes per model makes them deadly on the Feat turn, in which it will often take multiple attacks from multiple enemy models to kill one.

This is just one example of how units that are perceived as "the weakest" can actually be extremely valuable, while your 12-point Errant deathstar might not do much of anything all game if they get tied up with high-defense or armor enemies. The honest truth is that POW 9 Weapon Masters don't break armor well, and RAT 6 crossbows don't hit a lot of the stuff you really want them to hit unless you're aiming (and a smart opponent simply is not going to bring his important infantry and solos within 10" of your Errants).

The point I'm trying to make here is this: simply because Errants are the tarpit unit that is also the most well rounding in terms of defenses and capabilities, that does not mean that they are completely reliable in every list. You should, instead, experiment with different casters, jacks, units, and solos is varying combination until you start to get an idea about how YOU want to play the game. Your personal play style should not be dictated to you by internet forums, where Errants+UA, a Reckoner, and the Avatar together make it into 75% of all lists.

Ok so a teir 4 list would look something like this?
Ekreos 6
Crusader 6
Fire of salvation 9
Knights exemplar 5
Knights exemplar 5
Exemplar errants. 5
Exemplar cinerators. 5
Flame guard cleansers. 5
Knights exemplar seneschal. Free
Wrack. 1

shealyr wrote:While conventional wisdom does indeed say to put full Errants+UA+Seneschal+Reckoner in each and every list, you might want to consider asking yourself if you really want to simply follow the "cookie-cutter" Menoth build, which, let's be honest here, uses Errants as a crutch. As you play more games and expand your collection, you'll find that the Errants are not, in fact, the best unit in each and every situation, and that there are times when it is more than appropriate to use a unit like, say, Exemplar Cinnerators.

For instance, the caster who is quickly becoming my new favorite, Vindictus, LOVES Cinnerators. True Path makes them easily fast enough to engage when are where you want them to (especially with Relentless Advance), Defenders Ward makes them extremely annoying to kill, and having 8 damages boxes per model makes them deadly on the Feat turn, in which it will often take multiple attacks from multiple enemy models to kill one.

This is just one example of how units that are perceived as "the weakest" can actually be extremely valuable, while your 12-point Errant deathstar might not do much of anything all game if they get tied up with high-defense or armor enemies. The honest truth is that POW 9 Weapon Masters don't break armor well, and RAT 6 crossbows don't hit a lot of the stuff you really want them to hit unless you're aiming (and a smart opponent simply is not going to bring his important infantry and solos within 10" of your Errants).

The point I'm trying to make here is this: simply because Errants are the tarpit unit that is also the most well rounding in terms of defenses and capabilities, that does not mean that they are completely reliable in every list. You should, instead, experiment with different casters, jacks, units, and solos is varying combination until you start to get an idea about how YOU want to play the game. Your personal play style should not be dictated to you by internet forums, where Errants+UA, a Reckoner, and the Avatar together make it into 75% of all lists.

This, this and always this.

However, Vindictus DOES make Errants even grosser. Just saying.

I tend to run an odd mix of "things that I like." It really makes people
shake their head sometimes, but sometimes I can really catch
people off guard.

origarmi chicken wrote:Ok so a teir 4 list would look something like this?
Ekreos 6
Crusader 6
Fire of salvation 9
Knights exemplar 5
Knights exemplar 5
Exemplar errants. 5
Exemplar cinerators. 5
Flame guard cleansers. 5
Knights exemplar seneschal. Free
Wrack. 1

eKreoss Theme doesn't allow Wracks. Only solos allowed are Vassal Mechanik(who's also 1 point), KE Senny, Errant Senny, and Gravus.

Personally, I'd swap the Wracks and Crusader for a Daughters unit and the Errant UA. Kreoss only really wants FoS as he wants his Focus to cast and he doesn't really bring anything to the table for Jacks that aren't FoS. I'd also swap the Cinerators for a second unit of Errants. This build is faster than it looks on paper and the Cinerators will lag behind every time.

But before you try out my suggestions, try out the list you've made(while swapping the Wracks for a Mechanik), you may find it works for you.

Thanks
I will swap the wracks for a mechanik.

You want Gravus.

He prevents Knockdown to Exemplar models in his CMD area.

Kreoss is an Exemplar.

so teir 4. 35pts
Ekreos. 6
Fire of salvation. 9
Knights exemplar 5
Knights exemplar 5
Exemplar errants with UA 7
Exemplar errants. 5
Cleansers. 5
Gravis. 5

Which menoth units or silos are jack marshals?
Who is better vindictus or pfeora?

Jack Marshal, none in faction. You can get a couple via Mercs though.

Vindictus and pFeora are opposites for the most part. Vindictus is more an attriction caster while pFeora wants to get the kill herself. Vindictus can do it, he just doesn't do it as well and his feat screams attrition.

origarmi chicken wrote:Which menoth units or silos are jack marshals?
Who is better vindictus or pfeora?

There are no 'jack marshals. I think that's a deliberate decision given
that we have Reclaimers, Choir and Vassals.

pFeora is more offensive with a dangerous feat and a dangerous
spell, Engine of Destruction. Vindictus is an odd mix of offense and
defense. True Path grants warrior models additional movement and
Pathfinder while Defender's Ward beefs up a unit. His feat is easily
circumvented, but it might buy you time against single wound thugs
such as Mage Hunter Assassins and Widowmakers.

Better? I like both, but pFeora probably sees more play than
Vindictus.