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Was going to put this in Tactics, but I'm not sure if it's legal. I hadn't seen or heard of it.

Few facts (as I know them):
-Heralds, although Heroes, aren't Special Characters. They don't even have a separate page listing for description. There is no indication you can only take one that I see. You can take as many as you got points to hold.
-Daemonic Gifts are not magic items. Not only that, but it specifically says multiples of the same Gift may not be taken for a single Daemon. That's it. Beastmen and WoC both state you can only take a Gift once per army. Probably because they also have access to magic items.

2500 pt army:

Lords:
Fateweaver (625)

Heroes:
4 Heralds of Tzeentch with Power Vortex Gift (580)

Core/Special/Rare:
lol

The 4 Heralds add 4 power dice at the start of every magic phase (to a max of 12!). And while this might not seem that big a deal, you got to remember this is Khairos. He has +6 to cast spells, at any point he can Boon of Tzeentch on a 3+ and gain D3+1 power dice (when he starts whittling down the original). And unlike most casters, who are only going to have 4 spells at the most, he has something like 22 spells available to cast, since lore of Tz is Loremaster and always available. He's going to run out of power dice long before spells to cast.

Theoretically, those lvl 2 Heralds could all randomly get Boon of Tzeentch. Then you could potentially access 12 + 5D3 +5 power dice, aka 32 dice. Though each D3+1 can only be used by the Wiz that cast it and of course you would have to use at least one die to get the D3 +1. You would have 1 main pool and 5 sub-pools for each wiz including Khairos. Confusing.

You can't do as much with Heralds of TZ and Master of Sorcery, because you can't fit in Vortex and MoS (smart). But you could have a couple. And you can swap out Khairos with a generic LoC who can also take Vortex and Mastery of Sorcery. Though I don't think that's as spiffy as Khairos who simply has vastly more spells and protection from miscasts. Even if you can't have the same Herald multiple times, you could have a Herald of TZ a buffed LoC with Vortex and a Blue Scribe to get extra power dice every time the enemy casts a spell successfully--giving you +2 dice and however many you get from the enemy casting.

If this Herald concept is legit, it makes for some other wacky stuff. Like multiple Heralds of Nurgle with their Str 4 breath weapon.

Yes, there are no restrictions on taking multiple Heralds.

I have seen this done before, minus Fateweaver back in 7th. It was much more powerful then (when not taking the big guy) as the Daemon player could have dozens of power dice to a handful of dispel. It was not pretty to watch, nor fun to play against. The core were all pink horrors of course, and the PBAE spell being spammed was ridiculous.

Heralds are not SCs, as they are not named, so you can indeed have multiple of the same God

The only Gifts that are "unique" are Icons, as they are treated as magic banners (last i checked, anyway)

However, the main thing I would sugegst is that most tournaments run comp which equates GIfts to 0-1 or 0-2

Yeah it's effective. However it's very one phase. I like to take mostly fighy heros when I have Fateweaver in play. MY ard boyz list for this year will have fateweaver and a death Herald with wings. I've found that I ran out of power when I had 40 horrors, life herald, fateweaver last year.

I do have 50 points left that I may make my slaneesh herald a lvl 1 for the extra channel, ld based spells since I'll have masque and doom and darkness.

Well, yeah, it's one phase. But if you roll bad for your PD then 1/4 your points are nearly useless as that's basically all Khairos does. Having others cast instead of him is less efficient. Though for a 1 die attempt, it's better to have them try with their 1/3 chance of losing concentration.

nosferatu1001 wrote:Heralds are not SCs, as they are not named, so you can indeed have multiple of the same God

The only Gifts that are "unique" are Icons, as they are treated as magic banners (last i checked, anyway)

However, the main thing I would sugegst is that most tournaments run comp which equates GIfts to 0-1 or 0-2

They are treated as magic banners but they aren't unique. As with all gifts, you can take as many as you can fit.

DukeRustfield wrote:Theoretically, those lvl 2 Heralds could all randomly get Boon of Tzeentch.

Remember that unless you wizard is a loremaster (like Fateweaver), you can't have two wizards know a non-signature spell. That means that if you have 4 heralds, one will not know any spells (although he is still a wizard).

Check your FAQ:

Page 95 - Daemonic Icons
Add “Daemonic Icons are Magic Standards.” to the start of
the first paragraph.

Per the BRB for Magic Standards, you're limited to one of each per army.

Hellstorm wrote:Remember that unless you wizard is a loremaster (like Fateweaver), you can't have two wizards know a non-signature spell. That means that if you have 4 heralds, one will not know any spells (although he is still a wizard).

Oh, yeah. But you can still always have the lvl 1 signature spell.

streamdragon wrote:Check your FAQ:

Page 95 - Daemonic Icons
Add “Daemonic Icons are Magic Standards.” to the start of
the first paragraph.

Per the BRB for Magic Standards, you're limited to one of each per army.

I knew that was there but I didn't realize that daemonic icons aren't daemonic gifts. Thanks for the clarification.

1200 points for magic?
That's a bit rough. You might find you have a hard time in the rest of the phases. Any miscast that drains power dice is a big problem. As is an opponent who runs a lot of medium sized units. Magic seems pretty good at buffing 1 unit, or hosing 1 unit. Spending 1200 points to swing 2 combats isn't exactly cost effective.

You're worst enemy would be an opponent who runs almost no wizards or heroes, and just shows up with an army roughly twice your size.

-Matt

I took the most extreme example. You can obviously scale back.

But I don't know, man.

-He's going to AVERAGE 12 dice. (3.5 + 3.5 + 4 with maybe 1 more for channeling among 5 casters)
-With +6 to cast and always using 2 dice to make lost concentration 1/36 and miscast 1/36, that's 5 spells that average 13 casting value.
-with last die or 2 can get D3+1 extra power dice, or 3 more on avg.
-That's another 1-3 spells.
-And if he messes up early, he can always use his free re-roll to "fix" one of his die.
-Dispelling, the enemy is going to get 3.5 avg dice with a lvl 4 Wiz having 7+ to dispel. 2 dice would be 11. 3 dice would be 14.5.

So maybe 1-3 spells are dispelled a turn. 3-7 are getting through every single turn with a casting value around 13. Obviously bigger spells reducing that number, though you probably don't want to throw just 1 die to cast or you may break conc.

That's a LOT of stuff going on.

Thats a nice phase untill a HE or LM player pulls a phase ender on ya and denies you the use of half you'r army pts for a turn.

As stated most comps won't allow it which means you'd only be a mcasshole in friendly play, etc for example limits you to only having +2 power dice which nerfs lists like this and beastmen herdstone lists

nosferatu1001 wrote:
However, the main thing I would sugegst is that most tournaments run comp which equates GIfts to 0-1 or 0-2

I'm assuming this is something common in Europe? I have yet to have seen this in my play area. Can anyone let me know if this is common in the USA?[b]

Common in the UK, thats for sure. Uncomped 8th edition is horrible as a game system, as too many 7th ed books are overpowered

HoverBoy wrote:Thats a nice phase untill a HE or LM player pulls a phase ender on ya and denies you the use of half you'r army pts for a turn.

2 armies can do that once. It's a 75pt item for HE and 50pt for Liz and with a 50% chance of working. I've never seen a list with them because there's so much better stuff to take. I wouldn't be worried about it.

I've never seen a limit on gifts. The army has no access to magic items and the Heroes/Lords even from different gods, share some gift choices. And there really aren't that many gifts. The most I've seen is the magic BRB can't can't also take gifts--per the book, you can, which makes them fairly unique in that regards.

DukeRustfield wrote:I took the most extreme example. You can obviously scale back.

But I don't know, man.

-He's going to AVERAGE 12 dice. (3.5 + 3.5 + 4 with maybe 1 more for channeling among 5 casters)
-With +6 to cast and always using 2 dice to make lost concentration 1/36 and miscast 1/36, that's 5 spells that average 13 casting value.

2 dice with +6 to cast fails 27% of the time when shooting for a 12. If you need a 13, you fail 41% of the time.
While the "average" is nice, it's not a good indicator on the likely hood of a sequence of casting.
Rolling 2 dice six times, you're ending breaking concentration on a 2, and miscasting on a 12. With 6 rolls, you only have a 70% chance to not have either come up.

Then you run into the problem of spell selection. You get all of tzeench, + 4 spells. That most likely means you have 4 or 5 spells that matter. Bolt of Change, Glean Magic, + 2 from one of the two lores you chose.
Unlike a Teclis based army, I can actually dispel what you're casting. I know what spells you have, and I'll just throw all my dice at the one that seems the biggest issue (mindrazor) and let the others get by.
My favorite part is that as per the FAQ, each head counts as a caster. So if he is in range of the hellheart, he miscasts twice. If he rolls up the feedback on the miscast table, he takes 2 S6 hits.

It's viable, but I think it's weaker than a slaan (cheaper) or teclis (unstoppable).


-Matt

The double miscast sucks with hellheart, however with flight it isn't that hard to keep your distance, but will sacrifice the ld 9 Aura.

S6 hits arn't so bad with a 3+ ward, 5 wounds and access to lore of life.

HawaiiMatt wrote:2 dice with +6 to cast fails 27% of the time when shooting for a 12.

Unlike a Teclis based army, I can actually dispel what you're casting. I know what spells you have, and I'll just throw all my dice at the one that seems the biggest issue (mindrazor) and let the others get by.

Your % fails assumes he doesn't throw another die and he for some reason needs a 12. I'd say the median spell costs about a 9. The average is much higher cuz of lvl 6's.

So when he has Mindrazor and Purple Sun OR Final Transmutation and Dwellers etc, which do you save your dispel for?

That's the alternative. Instead of going for multiple small spells, you can be sure to hit them with a lvl 6 every round, then throw a few more normal spells.

DukeRustfield wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:2 dice with +6 to cast fails 27% of the time when shooting for a 12.

Unlike a Teclis based army, I can actually dispel what you're casting. I know what spells you have, and I'll just throw all my dice at the one that seems the biggest issue (mindrazor) and let the others get by.

Your % fails assumes he doesn't throw another die and he for some reason needs a 12. I'd say the median spell costs about a 9. The average is much higher cuz of lvl 6's.

So when he has Mindrazor and Purple Sun OR Final Transmutation and Dwellers etc, which do you save your dispel for?

That's the alternative. Instead of going for multiple small spells, you can be sure to hit them with a lvl 6 every round, then throw a few more normal spells.

Perhaps you should read his rules again.
One head chooses 4 spells. Another head chooses 4 spells. You pick 1 head to cast with all magic phase.
So of the 4 spells you listed, you can actually only know 2 of them, and you can only even attempt one of them per phase.
That would be the spell I save my dice for.
As soon as you start throwing more than 2 dice, the chance of miscasting starts climbing pretty quickly. The number of spells you can cast also dwindles as more dice are used.

I'd still rather have a slaan.
+5 to cast and dispel (book of asur), +1 power die per casting, Lore Master (loremaster > choose 4), LD10 BSB, and re-rolls miscasts. Can force an opponent to reroll a miscast result.
I'd say he's at least on par with the daemon, only he's ~75 points cheaper, and can hide in units.

-Matt

The spells he chooses can be in any combination, from those lores including all the lvl 6's if you like. And he has Tz loremaster.

So the right head can indeed have Transformation of Kadon, Flame Storm, Mindrazor, Purple Sun. As well as all the Lore of Tz.. Not sure why you're saying you can only cast 1.

Book of Asur and Cupped hands is 115pts, so no, he can't do that.

Khairos can never be wounded on anything better than 3+, he's got a 3+ ward, can fly, can re-roll anything once a turn. Has terror, flaming, magic attacks (including str 5 thunderstomp).

Certainly frogs are awesome. But being able to pick and choose the best spells to suit your army is pretty amazing. And yeah, sitting in a unit is good protection and all, but Khairos is fairly damn hard to hurt.

Ok i have a weird idea but bear with me here.

How about instead of continuing to argue like children we let Duke go and get a few games in with this and after we have some actual results to go on, we continue.