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HI i'm thinking of starting grey knights but but i was wondering about assasins are they good or bad?

Dabansheedude wrote:HI i'm thinking of starting grey knights but but i was wondering about assasins are they good or bad?

The vindcare is always good to start with. His rules are great and all the rounds he can use can do some serious damage to anyone. The only downside is that if you oppenet understands the threat of a vindcare they will go out and kill him before he does to much damage.

Dabansheedude wrote:HI i'm thinking of starting grey knights but but i was wondering about assasins are they good or bad?

Kinda. The Vindicare is pretty nice, with his shield busting and general never miss gun of doom (and his pistol too). The other ones are kinda blah, though the Calladus (sp?) can occasionally get a unit kill with its sneaky pop up flame template followed by assault. The DCA if properly supported are pretty much the most dangerous 15 pts in the game. Few of them backed up with rad grenades from an attached IC can kill pretty much any normal infantry unit in the game.

I've recently been experimenting with all of the Assassins, and these have been my finding:

Vindicare - Great...at taking out vehicles, anything else is really meh,
A. Hellfire - great if you definitely want to give a model a wound, but if that model has an invul save forget about it.
B. Shield-Breaker - this has to be one of the most unreliable types of ammo. You have to hit then proceed to wound which is still a 4+ roll. (With my luck it hasn't done it's job once) that's not to say it isn't good if it does it's job, but why risk it not working if you could take out something else more reliably?
C. Turbo-Penetrator - like I said this is by far the most effective round in his arsenal, great at taking out anything from a Trukk to a Land Raider, also the ability to cause two wounds with one round can be effectively used against infantry...sometimes.

Eversor - Kinda a one trick pony. Decide what you want him to kill at the start of the game, and if you get the charge off on it then it will more than likely kill that unit. The ability to get up to 10 attacks on the charge is absolutely amazing plus with the ability to reroll all failed wounds you are going to kill lots of models. If he should have the misfortune of getting charged though, dont count on him lasting that long.

Culexus - Very...very destructive shooting if you are using a main Grey Knight force. His Animus Speculum gets +1 shot for each psyker within 12", so stick him right in the main part of your GK force and you can possibly have up to 15 S5 AP1 shots at BS 8. Put those shots into whatever you want...it will destroy the unit more than likely. I haven't had much experience with him in assault, but lacking any power weapon attacks he will most like do OK.

Callidus - Useful at taking out those HQs you would rather not deal with...ever, the D6 ST4 AP2 hits on a unit of your choice is either great, or a complete whiff. Only used it once, and it managed to kill a assault terminator squad with a Vul'Kan HQ in it, but then again I absolutely lucked out with many of my rolls, on more of an average day you will most likely not be so lucky.

These are my finding, do with them what you will.

The Vindicare is by far the best.

If you have a spare transport for him (a Rhino) that makes him a lot more survivable. Or if you run Coteaz as the HQ you have a much better chance of going first, meaning you are more likely to blow something up with the Vindicare before he gets killed.

I very seldom take them. They are too much suceptible to basic firearms.

The Vindicare isn't.

he should be in cover and with a 36" range he should be pretty safe, and he has a 3+/6+ save on 2 wounds against said Small Arms.

you can also get a techmarine and improve a peice of terrian, put the vind assassin in it, then he will have a 2+ cover with 6+ FNP = winning

Dannygee wrote:Not sure where the 3+ is coming from but he has a 4+ inv and 6+ FNP. you can also get a techmarine and improve a peice of terrian, put the vind assassin in it, then he will have a 2+ cover with 6+ FNP = winning

3+ is from cover.
4+ cover + stealth (think assassins get that)

Yup, Stealth + 4+ cover = 3+ cover

Bolstered Ruin would make it a 2+ cover.

I already edited my comment as I cought it before hand.

Also, Grey Templar, as a fellow vet for Grey knights, i LOVE your sig. *soap box time*

Culexus is absolutely devastating in a croteze+razorback spam list if you pop a psyker into each squad, you can pretty much just leave him standing behind the wall of armor and anything that comes to CC has to deal with 10-20 S5ap1 BS8 shots. allowing you to effectively remove any unit that comes close without diverting fire.

My favorite is the Culexus... very good for Apoc matches.

Dabansheedude wrote:HI i'm thinking of starting grey knights but but i was wondering about assasins are they good or bad?

Forgot to mention before.... remember there are always two assess in assassin.

vindicare is by far the best.
it's the best against AV 14 in the entire game, it's average armor penetration with a turbo penetrator round would be str 3 + 14 + rending, and its ap 1, hellfire round will let you pick out important tergets like a wulfen from some grey hunters or a sister superior from a sisters of battle squad and the shieldbraker round will take a way their general's precious invulnerable save.
the only downside is how easy the vindicare dies, but that can be solved throught tactics.

I've taken a Vindicare a few times. I call him my "land raider insurance," since he's the only thing that can reliably deal with AV14 at range (I don't consider rending with psycannons to be reliable, although in a pinch it can sometimes work). However, he does have his problems. First, there's cover. It's pretty easy for enemies to get a cover save from him, and that instantly cuts his effectiveness by 50% (which hurts a lot on a ~150pt model that puts out 1 shot per turn). Second, there's incoming fire. In my experience both playing with and against Vindicares, I tend to see them die almost instantly. I have yet to let one of my opponents' vindicares live beyond turn 1. A Psyfleman dread will put about 3 wounds on one, one of which will lead to a failed cover save and insta-death.

On the other hand, he almost never misses, a completely average roll will pen a land raider, and AP 1 means vehicle destroyed half the time. So I certainly don't think you can argue that he doesn't have the potential to be a game-winner. You just have to hope he can make enough cover saves to survive long enough to do so.

Aidoneus wrote:I've taken a Vindicare a few times. I call him my "land raider insurance," since he's the only thing that can reliably deal with AV14 at range (I don't consider rending with psycannons to be reliable, although in a pinch it can sometimes work). However, he does have his problems. First, there's cover. It's pretty easy for enemies to get a cover save from him, and that instantly cuts his effectiveness by 50% (which hurts a lot on a ~150pt model that puts out 1 shot per turn). Second, there's incoming fire. In my experience both playing with and against Vindicares, I tend to see them die almost instantly. I have yet to let one of my opponents' vindicares live beyond turn 1. A Psyfleman dread will put about 3 wounds on one, one of which will lead to a failed cover save and insta-death.

On the other hand, he almost never misses, a completely average roll will pen a land raider, and AP 1 means vehicle destroyed half the time. So I certainly don't think you can argue that he doesn't have the potential to be a game-winner. You just have to hope he can make enough cover saves to survive long enough to do so.

I just noticed that you said the psycannons aren't reliable for taking out AV 14... 1/6 hits are rending, 2/3 rending hits pen. that's about 11 percent pen rate per hit, and you get 4 shots. Compare to lascannones, which have a single shot, and pen at rate of 16 percent per hit.

Vindicare has an average pen roll of 17, which is pretty good i hear, especially since its pretty heavily curved towards this number (rolling so many dice creates a strong bell curve with 17 being in the middle). He almost always hits (1/6 times he gets to reroll for a 4+, for about 8 percent miss rate). Gaining cover with a LR almost never happens short of popping smoke (and if it does you are playing with some pretty big pieces of terrain).

So the psycannons are pretty good anti tank, but the vindicare is very reliable if you have that one target that just needs to die and you can't afford to shoot multiple units at it.

Aidoneus wrote:You just have to hope he can make enough cover saves to survive long enough to do so.

Could always stick him in a Rhino to make him that much more annoying to take out. Or recognize that the enemy will target him first and use that to your advantage...

The best use I've had with a vindicare is simply just not deploying him where he can overwatch the entire board, if he has LOS to the middle half he's pretty much always going to get a shot off on something important and will take much less fire over the course of the game.

notabot187 wrote:I just noticed that you said the psycannons aren't reliable for taking out AV 14... 1/6 hits are rending, 2/3 rending hits pen. that's about 11 percent pen rate per hit, and you get 4 shots. Compare to lascannones, which have a single shot, and pen at rate of 16 percent per hit.

Per psycannon, you will destroy an average of 0.099 AV14 vehicles per turn (4*2/3*1/6*2/3*1/3) if you are standing still, or relentless. On a normal marine who is moving, that number will obviously be half as high. Per lascannon, you destroy 0.037 AV14 vehicles per turn (1*2/3*1/6*1/3). However, per meltagun, you destroy 0.21 AV14 vehicles per turn (1*2/3*(5/36*1/6+21/36*1/2)). This is why meltaguns are the king of anti-land raider weapons, in terms of standard options. By comparison, the Vindicare will destroy about 0.36 AV14 vehicles per turn, although that doesn't take into account rending, so the actual number is very slightly higher than that.

Of course, all of these numbers are just for destroyed results. Anything without AP1 will obviously do nonlethal damage proportionately more often than AP1 weapons.

To be fair, psycannons aren't terrible at popping high armour. You kind of have to pray for those rends, but with enough weight of fire, it can happen.

Joe Mama wrote:Could always stick him in a Rhino to make him that much more annoying to take out. Or recognize that the enemy will target him first and use that to your advantage...

Since we have no way to take non-dedicated Rhinos, you'll be forced to spend a turn getting into a transport (which another unit will be unable to use), and therefore not shooting on that turn. And it's not like Rhinos are all that hard to pop. I suppose, conceivably, this could help in some situations, but I think the turn delay makes it a pretty poor strategy to rely on.

Well recently I have not had any problem blowing up AV 14 like leman russ with psycanon. Much better luck then with my vindicare. He seems to just be a distraction in most cases right now. lol

As far as assassins I think DCA overall are better but vindicare is a close second espeacially vs high av opponents.

Psycannons are fine against AV14, especially now that Monoliths arn't immune to them anymore.

the Vindicare is there to take out AV14 at LONG range as opposed to Psycannons short range.


He also have the versitility to tackle other targets that no one else can. Only guy that can snipe sergeants and special weapons in the game. A very handy niche.

He also makes blood angel players cry when priests go down

I don't know where this dakka-culexes are coming from. You only get 1 bonus shot per character or per GK unit as a GK unit counts as a psyker, not each dude in it.

Grey Templar wrote:He also have the versitility to tackle other targets that no one else can. Only guy that can snipe sergeants and special weapons in the game. A very handy niche.

Telion says hi.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:He also have the versitility to tackle other targets that no one else can. Only guy that can snipe sergeants and special weapons in the game. A very handy niche.

Telion says hi.

Would Telion consider getting lent out to my Gk army for a stint? I'd actually really like that lol. It'd be amazing. I can also put down increased BS for the space monkey henchmen there. It'd be awesome.

Phototoxin wrote:I don't know where this dakka-culexes are coming from. You only get 1 bonus shot per character or per GK unit as a GK unit counts as a psyker, not each dude in it.

HQ:
inquisitor ,psyker upgrade (+1)
inquisitor ,psyker upgrade (+1)
Elite
10purifiers, razorback (+3 with combat squad)
10purifiers, razorback (+3)
henchmen (psyker),razorback (+2)
henchmen (psyker),razorback (+2)
Troop
10GKSS,razorback (+3)
10GKSS,razorback (+3)
10GKSS,razorback (+3)
10GKSS,razorback (+3)
10GKSS,razorback (+3)
10GKSS,razorback (+3)
Fast
10intercepter(+2)
10intercepter(+2)
10intercepter(+2)
Heavy
10pugation squad,razorback (+3)
10pugation squad,razorback (+3)
10pugation squad,razorback (+3)

total: +45 shots

Can culexes get more than 45+2 shots?

lol that's alot O'shots. 45 is pretty much capped by the FOC. you'd need some sort of apocolypse game to get more than that.

I think that the Apple's list of 45+2 is the absolute max, though GK might find it bit hard to get 13 razorbacks and 17 squads (single member enough) within 12 inches of him

I'm not 100% sure if Psychic pilot counts as a Psyker for Animus Speculum though. If it does, 10 shots would be easy to achieve, would only require 3-4 squads in razors within 12" of Culexus.

Nevermind that that's a 4000pt list, before any upgrades whatsoever. Realistically, even at 1750 or 2000pts, you'd have to build a list specifically to abuse the Culexus to even get as many as 15 or 20 shots. And let's remember that those are only at 12" range, coming from a 2W T4 model with a 4++ save. It's just so incredibly unlikely that you could get that killer salvo off. And even if you did, what, you'd kill a squad? Definitely not worth it.