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So I read the FAQ update from December but have two questions I'd like opinions on, although the first will sorta answer the 2nd one.

The rules for LOS state that you move the 'target' the 2D6 that you want. The update also states that 'models cannot be moved out of coherency'. That being said, if the power was used against a 10 man squad, it would only effect one model within that squad the roll of the 2D6, or would it move the entire 10 man squad? I feel the language is vague and switching between the terms 'unit,' 'target,' and 'models' doesn't help.

This leads to my second question, as to what the tactical relevance would be? I suppose it would work well with Independent characters, vehicles, walkers, etc... to move them closer for CC? But this would be even better for an entire squad (unit?) that it moves. If not this severely limits its usefulness to me.

So who has an opinion about this?

With Lash you move the Target Unit 2d6 inches. It does not work against vehicles so walkers are out, but it does work against MCs. There are 2 ways I use Lash. 1) To move units closer so that I can shoot/assault them. 2) To move units away so that they can't shoot/assault me. It is also very useful if you are able to move you opponent into difficult/dangerous terrain and if you cluster them up if you have template support from units like a Defiler or some Oblits so they can make good use of their Plasma Cannons.

Col. Dracus wrote: 1) To move units closer so that I can shoot/assault them.

This is only true if you are refering to shooting it with a unit other than the unit that is using LOS. This is one of the things that was clarified in the FAQ here.

Q: Can Lash of Submission be used to move the target
into range of other weapons in the unit? (p88)
A: No. Every shooting attack in the unit is resolved
simultaeously

You also used the same terminology as the codex which does not help me. By "unit" does it mean multiple models, as to encompass an entire squad of, for example, 10 regular SM as I suggested? I assume it does mean all the individual models in the "unit" but I'm asking for one or two other folks to verify this fact.

you move the whole unit. in your example yes you'd move the whole 10 man squad.

"Pick any non-vehicle enemy unit visible to the psyker...the target is moved 2D6" by the Chaos player." (C:CSM, p88)

In this instance, the term "target" clearly refers to the unit that you picked. In other words, you move the whole unit. The FAQ then clarifies that the models within the unit must move in a particular way.

Remember that "unit" and "squad" have the same meaning within the rules. This often gets confused by new players, especially those from RTS backgrounds (where "unit" usually refers to a single soldier). See page 3 of the rulebook for a more detailed explanation of the term "unit".

Unit == Squad, and is precisely defined at the start of the rulebook.

Same as when you pick your own unit to move it, you can move every member up to 6" (or 12", or 24", or whatever) )Lash lets you do the same. You pick a target unit, roll to hit (sigh, stupid rule changing FAQ) and then every model in that unit can make a move of (up to) 2D6". This is a "normal" move, so you can use their jumpacks if they have them, you can make them go through difficult / dangerous terrain if you want, and so on.

As the guys above have already covered, yes you move the entire squad of marines and this will include any idependant charecters joined to that squad. If the lash user is attached to a squad themselves, then the rest of the squads shooting is resolved before you move the squad.

As to your other question on the usefulness of lash, as well as the obvioius one of moving the squad out of cover and into range of your big guns, vidicators for example. It's also very useful for removing a squad off an objective so can be a late game winner. Cheesy, but effective.

It's also useful to lash squads that arrive via drop-pod or deep strike as they can't assualt that turn so you move them away from their intended target, usually into a space i can explode their little heads with using my Blastmasters or Doomsirens!

nosferatu1001 wrote: You pick a target unit, roll to hit (sigh, stupid rule changing FAQ)

Yeah, this seems awfully considering you already have to roll to make the psychic test, not to mention you may have an enemy psyker using psychic hood.

This reminds me of a question I had regarding Warptime and the having to re-roll *ALL* rolls to hit and *ALL* rolls to wound instead of picking the ones that missed. Many people often say GW "nerfed" Warptime, is this what they are referring to?

Kangarupe wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote: You pick a target unit, roll to hit (sigh, stupid rule changing FAQ)

Yeah, this seems awfully considering you already have to roll to make the psychic test, not to mention you may have an enemy psyker using psychic hood.

This reminds me of a question I had regarding Warptime and the having to re-roll *ALL* rolls to hit and *ALL* rolls to wound instead of picking the ones that missed. Many people often say GW "nerfed" Warptime, is this what they are referring to?

Fixed your quote.
Yes - Warptime requires you to re-roll all dice, not just the ones you want. This was clarified in the recent FAQ.

As for Lash - Zoanthropes and every other PSA feel your pain.

Apart from:

Jaws
Blood Lance

(etc)

rigeld2 wrote:

Kangarupe wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote: You pick a target unit, roll to hit (sigh, stupid rule changing FAQ)

Yeah, this seems awfully considering you already have to roll to make the psychic test, not to mention you may have an enemy psyker using psychic hood.

This reminds me of a question I had regarding Warptime and the having to re-roll *ALL* rolls to hit and *ALL* rolls to wound instead of picking the ones that missed. Many people often say GW "nerfed" Warptime, is this what they are referring to?

Fixed your quote.
Yes - Warptime requires you to re-roll all dice, not just the ones you want. This was clarified in the recent FAQ.

As for Lash - Zoanthropes and every other PSA feel your pain.

I did, seconds after I posted. But my question wasn't whether that was true or not, my question was whether that was the "nerfing" everyone talks about when it comes to Warptime.

Kangarupe wrote:I did, seconds after I posted. But my question wasn't whether that was true or not, my question was whether that was the "nerfing" everyone talks about when it comes to Warptime.

Sorry, I must've ninjaed you
And yes, that's the nerfing everyone is referring to. Sorry I didn't understand you before.

Thanks for all the replies, that's all I needed.

Another good use for Lash is moving a unit forward into a straight line. You put the Power weapon/Power Fist at the back of the line. That way when you assault and he piles in, his Sargets are not able to attack that round.

jbunny wrote:Another good use for Lash is moving a unit forward into a straight line. You put the Power weapon/Power Fist at the back of the line. That way when you assault and he piles in, his Sargets are not able to attack that round.

Not necessarily true. Unless the unit is strung out in a line, he should be able to get all of his models in b2b contact or within 2" of a model. Since the Sarge is a normal member of the unit, he'll still be able to attack.

That is exactly what I meant to describe.


X
X T T T T T T T T T S
X
X

X= Chaos unit
T= Enemy troopsers
S = Sargert with Power Weapon/Fist

Chaos unit is less than 6" away from first T, all other members in T unit are exactly 2" away.

After pile in moves, S is not within 2" of a model in B2B and therefor not able to attack.

rigeld2 wrote:

As for Lash - Zoanthropes and every other PSA feel your pain.

Except that this is a PSA that causes no wounds, so GG.

I find it very weird that the codex is quite old, and they FAQ'd nerffed Lash of Submission and Warptime... its not like their what wins games lol

For lash to be truly effective you must bring a bag of cheetos. Eat cheetos and lick your fingers a lot. Then when you successfully roll to hit and are about to touch your opponents models with your greasy orange cheeto-fingers just ask them "Are you sure you don't want to concede right now?"

Seriously though, I wish they'd remove this rule or change it so your opponent doesn't have to touch your models.

I just ask my friend to move the models X # of inches towards or away from me.

tme0003 wrote:This leads to my second question, as to what the tactical relevance would be? I suppose it would work well with Independent characters, vehicles, walkers, etc... to move them closer for CC? But this would be even better for an entire squad (unit?) that it moves. If not this severely limits its usefulness to me.

So who has an opinion about this?

A good example of manipulating things:

I used two lashes (sorcerer and DP) to move and arrange a necron unit so that with Pile In moves, Obyron would be too far away to get into b2b with my forces.

Here, Obyron and his crew GhostWalked in to shoot the tar outta those oblits, who were a trio. Oby and his crew are all clumped up. No fun to assault as Oby will get in the fight. Off picture to the right are my DP, sorcerer, some KBs and PMs.

At picture top, Zahndrek standing in his Cmnd. Barge.






After using the sorcerer and the DP's lashes, I shoved Oby really far away.

Here is a shot after the assault. Oby's 6 inch move to "Pile In" still kept him far enough away, where he's at the upper left of the picture, with a conga line of connecting robots to where I had my PMs, Oblits, DP and KB units assault.

At picture top, that's Zahndrek standing in his crater of a Cmnd. Barge.

They lost the combat big time, didn't pull off the deuce for a Morale Check and were promptly Swept.



As far as Moving the enemy with Lash, obey the rules of legal "Moving":
1. The unit stays in coherency
2. You can chose to have jumpers 'jump' through area terrain, invoking Dangerous T tests, or drag footies through Wrecks,
3. A model in the unit may move as far as the dice showed; so in the above example, my sorcerer's roll sucked, like 3 inches. So I used the DP's lash to move 'em again, getting 8 or so inches to really isolate Oby away from my boyz.

Even with needing to 'roll to hit', Lash is still a great power.