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I've just started playing the blood angels and have a few questions that I couldn't find in the codex or the BRB.

1. Can a Death Company Dread assault a vehicle in the assault phase after using the magna-grapple against that vehicle in the shooting phase?
If so, assuming that the Dread is equipped with (2) blood talons, would the armor pen. be D6 + STR 10? I assume that it would, judging by the ( Dread close combat section ) of the BRB.

2. Can Stormraven fire UP TO all 4 of it's blood strike missles in a single shooting phase as long as it did not travel over 6", 12", 24"?

3. Where in the blood angels codex or the BRB does it say that a Stormraven can travel 24" when going "flat out" in the movement phase?
Also, can said Stormraven fire one of it's "main" weapons after traveling 24", due to POTMS?

Thank you in advance for helping me with these questions.

1. You can assault a vehicle that you fire the Magna grapple at. If you have blood talons then you are only S6, since a dreadnought weapon is needed to be S10 and Blood Claws are not Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons.

2. You can fire all weapons if you move 6" or less since it is a Fast Vehicle. this includes all 4 Bloodstrikes.

3. Look for the rules for Fast Skimmers in the BRB. You can fire one weapon with PotMS. I am not sure what page that is on.

They clarified the PotMS shooting while moving flat out in the BA FAQ.

Blood talons are not Dread CC weapons? then what are they? lol

They're Blood Talons. Dreadnought Close Combat weapon is a different weapon type entirely that confers the strength bonus.

sub-zero wrote:Blood talons are not Dread CC weapons? then what are they? lol

A Blood Angel's Dreadnought (of any type) is not equipped with a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon, which is generally defined in the BRB. They are equipped with Blood Fists or Blood Talons, which are specifically defined in Codex: Blood Angels.

Ok, i get where your coming from, but... The BRB says " Walkers are often armed with enormous close combat weapons - Hammers, wrecking balls, claws, ETC. A dreadnought close combat weapon is a power weapon and doubles the walker's strength in close combat (up to a maximum of 10)". So you see where I'm getting the idea that blood talons double the dreads strength?

Sure. From a real world logic perspective.

But from a rules logic perspective, where key terminology has specific and limited meanings, it's not a "Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon", unless it's named or includes in its description the words "Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon."

Yes, but you're wrong. A DCCW (as referred to in that paragraph) is a specific thing. A Blood Talon is a specific thing. The rules for a Blood Talon do not reference the DCCW rules.

Maybe it's the "etc." in that paragraph that is throwing me off. I dunno, it just makes sence to me that blood talons are in fact a DCCW, I mean, how else would you classify them? They don't shoot, they don't use any kind of ballistic skill, and you have to be in base to base contact to use them......

I surprised that this topic hasn't come up before, if your talking specifics, then maybe you shouldn't use "etc." in the text. lol

They are close combat weapons on a dreadnought.

They are not dreadnought close combat weapons.

Unit1126PLL wrote:They are close combat weapons on a dreadnought.

They are not dreadnought close combat weapons.

You literally blew my mind right there! lol Do you care to elaborate further?

Read the descriptions for Blood Fists and Blood Talons on page 60 of the codex. Note that Blood Fists specifically state that they are a Dreadnought Close Combat weapon while Blood Talons state that they follow the same rules as lightning claws. Since lightning claws do not double a model's Strength and they are never defined as a Dreadnought Close Combat weapon its clear that Blood Talons only hit at S6.

sub-zero wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:They are close combat weapons on a dreadnought.

They are not dreadnought close combat weapons.

You literally blew my mind right there! lol Do you care to elaborate further?

A "Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon" is a specific kind of weapon, just like a Power Sword is. Not every weapon carried by a dreadnought for the purposes of Close Combat is a Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon in the specific, rules-mandated sense.

Sort of like how if I named my child Human, he would be distinct from a human, because it is a proper name.

So is this along the same lines as: Power weapons ignore armor saves, but not all weapons that ignore armor saves are power weapons? If so then I guess I'll concede the point of the blood talons.

So I guess there really isn't a point of putting the magna-grapple on a DC dread with blood talons then?

S6 isn't terrible against vehicles, since you normally attack rear armor. The Furioso can also charge at S7 if he gets Red Thirst or is in 6" of a Sang Priest when he swings.

But overall, yeah, the magna grapple doesn't complement the blood talons very well, as blood talons are specialized for erasing squads.

The Blood Talons aren't a DCW. They just aren't. I think your (OP) reading the rules to gain a positive effect for your own ends.

No one has ever mistaken the BT to be a DCW before. This in-and-of-itself should be all the evidence you need to know that the BTs and the Blood Fists (i.e., DCW) are two DIFFERENT weapon types.

Cortez, those are not very useful or friendly arguments. Telling someone they're trying to twist the rules for advantage is kind of insulting, and unlikely to elicit a positive response. I also don't think you can support the claim that no one" has ever made this mistake before.

Very true, Mannahim.

While I believe that I read the OPs post correctly, I do agree the response wasn't very friendly.

That being said, the entries in the BA codex are extremely clear as to how Blood Talons and Blood Fists are used 'in game'.

Given how well the OPs posts are written, I don't think hes/shes un-intelligent. Thus, only one conclusion seems accurate; thier trying to pull a fast one.

Even intelligent people have their *derp* moments and unfortunately intelligent enough to create a logical reason to support their *derp* moment. Stop trying to attribute a *derp* moment to malice. If it was malicious, why would he be asking us for clarification instead of just playing it to his advantage?

It's a strange world; who knows?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again, the Blood Angels codex are extremely clear on the two weapon types, and how they function. "Fast One" was the only logical conclusion I could draw.

Ghaz wrote:Even intelligent people have their *derp* moments and unfortunately intelligent enough to create a logical reason to support their *derp* moment. Stop trying to attribute a *derp* moment to malice. If it was malicious, why would he be asking us for clarification instead of just playing it to his advantage?

Cortez667 wrote:It's a strange world; who knows?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Again, the Blood Angels codex are extremely clear on the two weapon types, and how they function. "Fast One" was the only logical conclusion I could draw.

Not that this has anything to do with the rules question, but your logical conclusion of "fast one" is your aforementioned derp moment.

sub-zero wrote:So is this along the same lines as: Power weapons ignore armor saves, but not all weapons that ignore armor saves are power weapons? If so then I guess I'll concede the point of the blood talons.

Yep, that's pretty much it. Also, consider that Blood Talons are a free upgrade from Blood Fists; if they indeed were DCCWs, then you'd have literally no reason not to take them.

Also - think of this frmo a game perspective: if Talons DID double strength (they do not!) then why would you ever use the Fists? They are a free swap and, with the extra attacks and rerolls to wound would be superiour in every way to a fist.

That alone should gi ve you a clue that your interpretation is reaching.

Alright, I believe you all that blood talons are NOT in fact DCCWs. BTW, I was not trying to "pull a fast one" as someone posted on here, If I was, do you really think that I would make this topic in the first place? Wow, it's amazing how quickly "internet tough guys" will jump to the wrong conclusion, it could almost be misconstrued as trolling, if one to to make that kind of assumption.

p.s. It's obvious by my grammar and vocabulary that i'm an uneducated backwoods redneck that can barely even read the codex and BRB, right?

Well ....


Hey, YOU asked?

Trolling trolling trolling, keep them dakkaites trolling, RAWhide.

sub-zero wrote:Alright, I believe you all that blood talons are NOT in fact DCCWs. BTW, I was not trying to "pull a fast one" as someone posted on here, If I was, do you really think that I would make this topic in the first place? Wow, it's amazing how quickly "internet tough guys" will jump to the wrong conclusion, it could almost be misconstrued as trolling, if one to to make that kind of assumption.

p.s. It's obvious by my grammar and vocabulary that i'm an uneducated backwoods redneck that can barely even read the codex and BRB, right?

Keyboard courage seems to be pretty rampant on these forums. Wait until your word choice gets you called a troll by a mod. IMO, it's derived from playing a game where you are a puppetmaster of superhumans.
They're right on the rules though. BTs are weapons used by a dread in cc, but not a dread cc weapon.
Also, in your p.s. , you should capitalize the I in "...I'm an uneducated...".
You know, for grammar's sake.

sub-zero wrote:So is this along the same lines as: Power weapons ignore armor saves, but not all weapons that ignore armor saves are power weapons? If so then I guess I'll concede the point of the blood talons.

Here's a specific example.

A Power Weapon ignores all armor saves.

A Necron Warscythe is a close-combat weapon that ignores all armor saves and grants + 2 Strength



A Warsycth [b[]u]is not[/u][/b] a power weapon. A Warsycth is not a power weapon that grants + 2 Strength.

A Warscythe is exactly what the rules say it is.

Back to the OP's original question:

2- Yes it can fire all weapons if it moves 6" so all 4 missles is fine. as long as the target is right in front of it. The missles are under the wings so if the target is just left or right of the hull, without pivoting only 2 of the missles can shoot.

leohart wrote:Back to the OP's original question:

2- Yes it can fire all weapons if it moves 6" so all 4 missles is fine. as long as the target is right in front of it. The missles are under the wings so if the target is just left or right of the hull, without pivoting only 2 of the missles can shoot.

Thanks for the response! If i'm not mistaken, pivoting your vehicle after movement is a free action, no?