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Howdy folks

So, I've been making miniatures for my game Blackwater Gulch (http://www.blackwatergulch.com), and they've generally be pretty well received (more than I expected) especially in the historical gamer communities. I want to continue making new figures, but my budget is pretty tight. I'm funding my first starter box set myself, but I can't afford more than one at the same time. I have many planned though, so I want to set up a Kickstarter program to hopefully get funding to do many more box sets, along with extra separate add-on figures.

Each starter set comes with 5 new figures (they won't include the "gang leader" figures I have now), each built around a theme or storyline. There's no real factions in the game, but this is a way to get a lot of different looks and styles since there was a lot more to the old west than cowboys. My first set will be The Clancy Gang, who are more like your typical wild west outlaws. I'm planning the Vigilance Committee next, which will be lawmen and deputized citizens. After that, I have plans for mexican themed gangs, native americans, hillbillies, gold miners, army rejects, soiled doves and many more. After each set is released I also hope to also produce several extra single figures in the same themes to add to your starter set, but the way the rules work you can really use any figure you want for your gang members, so you can mix and match too if you like. The box sets will also include a small quickstart rules booklet and trading-card sized character cards for each figure (similar to Warmachine, etc). I'll also be using Mantic's plastic boxes and the figures will be packed with foam, so it will also double as a carrying case for your gang too. After you learn the game, you can go online and get the full rules to learn how to make your own gang, or just keep using the same cards if you want. I'm expecting the starter box sets to retail for "less than $35". Won't know the exact price till I actually get the figures done up in metal. Hoping for closer to $30.

Anyway.. like I said, I can afford 1 starter, but not 2+. I could make 1 set, sell enough to at least break even, and then start on the second one, but that will mean a minimum of 3 months between releases, most likely longer. The goal would be $3000 to get the Vigilance Committee done. If it goes higher than that, it would be $6000 for native americans too and then $9000 for mexicans (costs about $3000 to get 1 set going, mostly spent on sculpting). Anything more than that would be put toward add-on figures at the rate of $600 per fig (covers concept art, sculpting, molding/casting, pro-painting, etc).

I'm trying to figure out the best kind of deals for folks that want to back the project....

For anything lower than $30, I was going to just tell folks that they can just buy 1 or both of the gang leader figures I already have.. or is it better to include those in the kickstarter so it counts toward backing? like ... $10 for 1 leader, $20 for both (same price as now).

Then $30 you basically pre-order the starter of your choice. $60 for 2 starters, $90 or 100 for both starters + 2 laser cut buildings wood buildings (from Sarissa or GameCraft, hoping to sell both in my online store eventually)

Over $100 could be more building bundles. I wasn't going to offer the print-on-demand rulebook since I really don't make much of a profit off of that, just a few bucks like a royalty fee kind of thing. So including the book would actually take a good chunk out of the funding. Also, offering pro painting services for backers that pay a lot (like 500+) from Golem painting (however, they have a 6 week minimum wait).

Also, to help show what the future holds for the company and game system I was going to preview some artwork for the next project which will be a sci fi game, but it will be a good year or so before I would be starting to get figures done for it. Or would I be better off just focusing on Blackwater Gulch for the kickstarter and then do the sci fi game separately, later on?

So anyway, long story short, if you were to support the game what would you want to get out of a kickstarter package? Any suggestions?

Just looking for some ideas Still waiting on a couple more goodies to show off before I set the whole thing up.

I'd keep them seperate myself, you want folks to see this as a chance to back a game with a future, and a Sci-fi game tag on gives the wrong message.

'We like this Wild west game, but if you support us, we can really start looking at this one we'd rather be making'

Let the Sci-fi game stand on its own merits later on. If this works out for you, the Sci-fi game may come naturally anyways.

As to Reward tiers. Tough one, I've seen ones that are not that interesting, and some which seem almost insane to be giving away. However in both cases i've seen stuff get backed, so its just hoping you have a potential auidience for the game.

Although what you are suggesting as rewards is sounding pretty good tbh.

I think the ideas you have listed are pretty solid. I would definitely be interested in the starter pack pre-order if you did ever put this up on kickstarter.

Hmm, yeah it's probably not a great idea to include the 2nd game. I could do a whole separate kickstarter for that when the time comes. They're all related though, sort of. They'll all use the same game rules, just each one will be a different setting and have different professions, skills, weapons, etc. I wouldn't be looking to start diving into the next one for at least a year from now. My goal is to eventually get to the point where I can release a bunch of different figures for a bunch of different games each month.

I'll probably set it up pretty soon. Trying to decide if I want to wait for the next round of sculpts later this month.. but I guess I could just update it to show off the new sculpts later..

Should I do a breakdown of the costs involved to show why it costs so much? or do people usually not really care? Like should I make the whole thing short & sweet, with lots of photos? or try to explain how minis are made and all that stuff?

I'd suggest putting your amount for the Minimum you need.. as if you don't hit that amount, you don't get squat... but you can always get more. Also make sure to factor in the % they take from what you raise.

Having seen your bounty hunter leader, I would certainly be interested in a Soiled Doves set.

Don't really have anything to say about the pricing/kickstarter though.

Thanks Soiled doves would probably be much later, I want to get the top 4 done first. But, I imagine them being a lot like the bandit I just had done, not the girls that hang out in saloons. Well some might, but they're more like "mean & tough cowgirl" types.

And yeah, I was thinking I'd should on Kickstarter's fees as well

Using Kickstarter, doesn't that limit you to Amazon payments? I have a paypal account, but not a Amazon one..

How could I throw money at your Kickstarter?

-P

hmm.. actually I haven't looked into the Kickstarter stuff fully yet, I was under the impression you could just pay with paypal or a credit card. Like, I thought I had to set up amazon payments for me to get the funds in the end, but for backers it would be just like buying something on Amazon?

I already have Google too, in fact my store is using it for online orders and I even use it to pay sculptors and artists. So far I've been running the whole biz with paypal

Go listen to the Funding the Dream podcast, it's all about do's and don't of kickstarting.

He interviews a lot of people who have already run their campaign and talks about what they're done right and wrong.

Cool thanks, downloading all 40 episodes now

I think the Project side of Kickstarter uses Amazon Payments, but they take in money by a range of means including PayPal. I assume that for whatever reason it's easiest for them to sue Amazon to disperse the payments (after they take a cut).

Kickstarter seems to have gained a great deal of 'legitimacy' of late with stuff like the Order of the Stick guy's successful campaign and the Doublefine game funding project.

I'm thinking to maximize the benefit Project Founders need to really push communications and work on creative 'incentives' to get people to bid more. As well, of course, as doing tons of research and calcualtions to make sure the project is feasible and the set funding amount will actually cover everything.

I'd also say that you need to have good advertisement for the project, and it needs to actually be good. Your idea is great, but I know next to nothing about your game.

On another, related note, the F Plus podcast did an episode on Kickstarter, making fun of the people who failed. Warning: NSFW and the such (lots of swearing) here. Don't let it dissuade you, though, think of it as "how not to do a Kickstarter."

I am interested in this project, aside from any kicknuts shenanigans.

Can I just send YOU the $$$ for the aside order of the gangs? Kinda like the old school Necromunda gang boxes. ( I send you some cash for the boxes of the gangs, or later releases....)

Seriously, the game is very tight. And for those who are not in the know, It has a very good stageing point for more expansions. ( klondike wars, Civil War raiders, Family Feuds, Cattle russlers, Gold strike skermishes.... etc.etc.etc...


When I played the game I used a couple of squads of Reaper Cowboys and the game plays very smoothly, and the rules are very well written. Had a bunch of "Black Duster" gang guys shooting up the town, and "Not the Man With No Name" and Tuco in a shootout with the Black Dusters, led by Lee Van Cleef.

Still need a good kicking for not getting those Tombstone guys. I'm a little sqeamish on resin guys after the GW debacle, so I'm SOL on the metal ones, but I am very much a fan of the project so far.


Keep up the great work. I showed the game to two or three other guys and they really took to it.


Once again, I'm not interested in kickstarter, but I have cash to help fund something of this nature. ( Yes, the game is that well rounded that it can sell itself.)

I have a bunch of tombstone guys you can buy off me if ya want They're primed white, never got around to painting them.

But anyway we could work something out if you want to pre-order in advance like that. I was thinking Kickstarter would be a better way to handle it though for everyone. I'd pretty much be holding on to your money for a good 2-3 months though since it just takes a while to get everything sculpted and finished.

I've listened to a few of those podcasts already, gonna listen to the rest too. Already got some better ideas. I'm thinking for the different levels of funding now, I can do it like like this..

Shipping included for everyone, everywhere in the world.

$5 gets your name in the rulebook on a special thank you dedication page.
$10 as above and pick 1 Deluxe figure (The Gang Leader figures I already have, changing the name to something more fitting)
$20 as above but you get both deluxe figs
$40 as above + select 3 figs of your choice from any starter
$55 as above but you get the whole starter set of your choice w/ box, cards, rules, etc.
$90 as above but 2 starters
$125 as above, includes 2 small laser-cut wood wild west buildings
$160 as above, includes 1 more small building + 1 large
$250 as above only you get a small town to go with your figures.
$500 as above and you also get a special, unique character named after you. If you wish, you can also choose the stats, weapons and everything.. and if you like you can supply a photo of yourself and we'll have the sculptor try make it look like you too (insert Mini-me joke here). You will get added to the game as a hero (or villain!) to future stories and fluff pieces as well. Your character will be immortal and never removed from the game world (unless you want a really cool story about you going down in a blaze of glory).

If I reach $6000 people can select whichever starter they want, or higher level backers can swap 2 small buildings for 1 starter, so at $125 you'd get 2 Deluxe figs plus 3 starters. At $9000, same thing but you could get all 4 starters for $160, or if you backed for lower than that you can just pick the sets you want.

So after doing a lot of research and listening to 40 episodes of Funding the Dream back to back, here's what I came up with for my Kickstarter. It's not live yet, this is just a preview page while the Kickstarter folks review it. I guess the only thing it's missing is a video, but I don't have the means to make a good one right now and I'd rather have no video at all than one video that looks and sounds bad.

Anyway here it is so far Any thoughts? anything missing or not clear, etc?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1763460781/274106730?token=9efe6d46

When do pledges get taken out of my bank account? On date of pledge, or at some point in the future?

Can I pledge using paypal ONLY or must I use Amazon payments... or can I paypal Necros my pledge directly?

-P

As far as I know, you can pay for your pledge the same as you would buy anything off of Amazon, with a credit card or paypal or whatever. But, you don't get charged unless it's successful and meets it's goal, and then you get charged when the program is over in 30 days.

But being the one that set it up, I don't know if I'd be allowed to make a pledge for my own thing on someone else's behalf. I'm not sure how that would work


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Oh and I also snuck in a new pick for a new Brother Vinni sculpt, the guy with the 2 pistols I'll put shots with other angles on my site soon as I get it all organized

Ughhh. I wish I would have met you while living here in Norristown. I would be real cool in lending a hand on this project. Moving down to Newark this weekend. :(

Looks good Necros, shame I haven't got a $1000 lying around, as I have a couple of nice ideas for gangs that would stand out a little to the typical western fare.

Travelling freakshow style gang, or a group of former Saloon girls, or Saloon girl vagabonds. Something on those lines.

Regarding the $1000, did you mean for it to be unlimited. I don't doubt you'd be dancing if you got several folks make that kind of donation, but would you really want three, four gangs or more being shoe horned into your own settng?

That kind of reward seems logically to 0-1 or 0-2 at the best.


edit - ah its not live. Yeah, I'd advise considering limiting the top tier reward.

But if 50 people want to make their own gang and I get $50,000

But I think you're right. I'll limit that to 1 or 2, anything more than that I think could end up being a pain to arrange. But I was also thinking $1000 is a lot of money, and I think I'd be really lucky to even get 1. In the podcasts I listened to, they said it's good to offer a high level one just in case, but I'm not expecting it.

I was originally planning to have $1000 be where you get both box sets pro-painted, but the pro-painting price would end up eating into the funding too much for it to be really helpful. So I thought the create your own gang thing would be better. I was planning to do that anyway later on as a contest.

I will be donating on monday, your models look great and the game looks fun.

Great thanks It's doing better than I expected so far, i'm getting excited

Bumping this, congratulations on how well your project is doing.

Reading what you have on your site, I wish I had some spare money available to put into your project :S

The sculpts you have are great; really thinking of buying one myself just to paint


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For future sculpts... you really should have a gunfighter in the 'draw' position... You know, with the hands tensed just above the holstered pistols

Blackwater Gulch is just $80 away from doubling it's goal.

Congratulations on your success dude.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1763460781/blackwater-gulch-gangfights-in-the-old-west?ref=users A link for those that haven't checked it out yet.

hehe thanks now I'm about $600 away from the 2nd stretch goal so I think it's safe to say Cinco do Mayo will come early this year!

But after that... I don't have anything else planned.. don't know what other stretch goals I can set. I really only planned these 4 sets for now. I was thinking whatever I get over $9000 will just go in the bank and get put toward new sculpts add on packs but I haven't even planned out what other figs I need just yet. Well, the goal for each gang set is to also release the other 3 professions plus about 8-10 other henchmen that match the same theme. So I'd have a blister pack with 1 Clancy Gang Doctor or 2 Clancy Gang Henchmen.

I do have other ideas for starter sets, but I wanted to start out with these first 4, and then do a bunch of blisters to support them before moving on to the next couple of starters.

Guess I gotta think more about what to add in next...

Alternatly your strecth goal could be to give more swag to your backers.....

I was thinking that too, but what's better than a free mini and cool dice? I was thinking of maybe T-shirts or baseball caps (since you don't usually see logos on cowboy hats...) .. was also thinking of tape measures with the logo on them too, since you need one to play anyway.

Necros wrote:I was thinking that too, but what's better than a free mini and cool dice? I was thinking of maybe T-shirts or baseball caps (since you don't usually see logos on cowboy hats...) .. was also thinking of tape measures with the logo on them too, since you need one to play anyway.

Thats an easy question to answer... More Free Mini's and Cool Dice!

Lots of neat little things you could do.