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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Are thunder wolves worth running now that the models are finally out. Wolf death stars like Spag runs just seem to cost too much the wolf lord just costs as much as a land raider which dunno if thats worth it spending 600+ pts on a lord + unit just seems ridiculous coming from playing msu mech guard for years. I ran a seer council eldar in 4th and liked it as it was really hard to kill but how well do thunder wolves hold up? Small units of wolves like Avariel runs don't seem all that good when faced with torrent of fire or other dedicated assault units but she uses them to good effect killing troops and rushing shooting units.

Seems most tourney builds have some really good stuff vs Thunderwolves.
Blood Angel furioso dreads and furious charge fnp marines hurt.
Eldar have enough speed to keep away from Thunder wolves.
Dark Eldar have all those Venoms to torrent them down.
Deathwing's assault terminators are cheaper per unit then a wolf star and there are more of them so you hit one unit and then get multi assaulted.
Grey Knights have all those psy cannons, storm bolters and force weapons not to mention the dca unit with rad grenades.+ win grenades.
Necrons have Wraiths and Scarabs farm that take away armor along with mindshackle scarabs.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/09 03:30:35


 
   
Made in us
Badass "Sister Sin"






Camas, WA

Yes, TWC are pretty worth it. My standard SW list is:

Roland Krakenbeard - TWC Lord (Bear, SS/WC, TWM, Runic)
RP
Wolfguard (PF/Combi)
3-6 Grey Hunters with mix of Rhino/RB
2-3 TWC (SS, SS/PF, Normal)
3xLF (5xML), Razorbacks
Wolf Scouts

Wolf lord/TWC and Wolf Scouts give board pressure to my opponent while the rest of my army is shooting the crud out of them. If they move to avoid scouts, they get closer to my shooting and TWC. If they move to avoid TWC, they go into the scouts.

Works out pretty well. Just know what you can and can't charge. Depending on what you're facing, that unit can win the whole battle for you or just distract the enemy long enough for the missiles and lascannons to do their job.

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Made in us
Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle






Jacksonville, NC

TWC are worth it, if anything because they can be on your opponent T2 and wreck face. They do have obvious weaknesses (DE venomspam) but their pros far outweigh the cons

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Made in ca
Regular Dakkanaut




Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

How do the TWC fare in a list that doesn't run any Rhinos, like Loganwing (and it's variations)?

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Made in us
Dakka Veteran






Thunderwolves are one of the premier assault units in the game ATM. For about 200-250 points a squad of them costs about the same as a squad of tacticals and will smash 90% of the things it will run into on the board. They're not invincible, but they're good fighters, they're pretty resilient to enemy shooting, they're reliably in close combat by turn 2, and they're just a real pain for the opponent to deal with. If you use them as a bodyguard for a wolf lord then the wolf lord is basically impossible to kill with shooting, and he fears nothing in close combat. That's for around 500 points. It's deathstar quality without the deathstar pricetag. If you're playing space wolves and you want to kick peoples teeth in, this is your go-to assault unit.

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Made in us
Speedy Swiftclaw Biker




As long as you don't do anything stupid like charging them into GKs with Nemesis halberds, you'll do just fine with Thunderwolves. They're not an "I win!" button, but a pack of Thunderwolves escorting a ThunderWolf Lord with Saga of the Warrior Born has a good chance to wipe out one of these.
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




TWC are troop killers; that's about it.

They will eat almost any basic squad of troops in the game, except maybe grey knights (which they still beat, they just might take some wounds back/lose a model).

If you try to use them against actual assault units (terminators, paladins, things with power weapons and a lot of attacks/high int) they will either cancel each other out, or most likely lose the fight.

If you want to use them competitively, I would suggest taking quite a few. Like, 8-12 of them, depending on the points of the game you are playing. You have to commit to using them , or not use them at all, IMO.

Then, take a lot of missiles (but you already are, i'm sure, since you are SW, lol). The whole idea here is to shoot open the enemy transports with missiles or Melta, and then assault the troops inside with the TWC. Sending 3-4 TWC at 5 marines means you win the combat, and they probably lose a troop. If the squads are bigger, gang up on them if you need to, or thin them out with shooting. The next turn you will probably lose a few TWC to enemy shooting, but probably not all 8+ of them, so you'll most likely get 2-3 turns of troop eating before they die, and then the enemy is probably low on troops (meaning you probably have the objectives). And, if the enemy focuses on your TWC, they are not focusing on your troops, tanks, or missiles, since it pretty much takes either a lot of fire or anti-tank weapons to effectively kill TWC (or mass plasma, which is fairly rare competitively).

The main thing is just to hide your TWC behind rhinos before the time comes to slingshot out and kill things, which is usually turn 2-3 when most of the enemy have moved out of their deployment and you've had a couple turns to open up their metal boxes.

The only thing you don't want to do is send them against something they will not easily beat, especially early on in the game, as they cost too much to be thrown away trying to fight TH/SS termies, GKs, or something like that.

If you are fighting GKs, try to use them to kill strike squads (which they will beat), henchmen, vehicles, or weakened purifier squads, making sure to keep a rune priest in range to cancel the force weapons. I wouldn't even bother sending them at paladins, as they are little more than a speed bump for them. Use their speed to avoid dangerous stuff and hit the enemy where they are weak.

Anyway, that's what i think.
   
Made in us
Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw





Buzzard's Knob

Teln wrote:As long as you don't do anything stupid like charging them into GKs with Nemesis halberds, you'll do just fine with Thunderwolves. They're not an "I win!" button, but a pack of Thunderwolves escorting a ThunderWolf Lord with Saga of the Warrior Born has a good chance to wipe out one of these.


I don't know about that, I charged into a unit of Paladins with a wolf lord on a thunderwolf who had the Saga of the Warrior Born. He was lucky to pass all of his 3++ storm shield saves and so the next turn he got 9 attacks and he finally got the unit down to one model, and if he would have made one more save he would have had 11 attacks next time and certainly slaughtered the unit. If he would have had some thunderwolf cav with him, that unit would have been dead by then, Unfortunately, it was only a 1,000 point game and those pesky required troops choices did me in. I personally plan on running two or three units of them in the future. Especially against killer armies like Grey Knights and Blood Angels.

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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




warpcrafter wrote:

He was lucky to pass all of his 3++ storm shield saves and so the next turn he...

it was only a 1,000 point game

Especially against killer armies like Grey Knights and Blood Angels


You can't count on luck, and all it takes is 1 failed force weapon wound + successful activation roll and you are dead unless you have saga of the bear. TWC, and TW lords are not good for killing paladins. At all. MAYBE a TW Lord with TH/SS, saga of the bear, and necklace would do okay.

Also, 1,000 point games are not really considered "competitive" or tournament worthy.

I honestly think BA and GK are two of the armies you actually do not want to use TWC against, since they have many units that can easily kill TWC (FNP FC jump pack marines will win if they charge the TWC, and GKs have force weapons), meaning you will lose more TWC than you would against armies that simply cannot face them in close combat (IG, most marine units, most DE and Eldar units, most necron units, Tau, most Nid units, and so on). In those match ups you are better off just focusing on shooting everything to death with missiles/melta/razorbacks and whatnot.
   
Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

jcd386 wrote:
warpcrafter wrote:

He was lucky to pass all of his 3++ storm shield saves and so the next turn he...

it was only a 1,000 point game

Especially against killer armies like Grey Knights and Blood Angels


You can't count on luck, and all it takes is 1 failed force weapon wound + successful activation roll and you are dead unless you have saga of the bear. TWC, and TW lords are not good for killing paladins. At all. MAYBE a TW Lord with TH/SS, saga of the bear, and necklace would do okay.

Also, 1,000 point games are not really considered "competitive" or tournament worthy.

I honestly think BA and GK are two of the armies you actually do not want to use TWC against, since they have many units that can easily kill TWC (FNP FC jump pack marines will win if they charge the TWC, and GKs have force weapons), meaning you will lose more TWC than you would against armies that simply cannot face them in close combat (IG, most marine units, most DE and Eldar units, most necron units, Tau, most Nid units, and so on). In those match ups you are better off just focusing on shooting everything to death with missiles/melta/razorbacks and whatnot.


You should always take a Lord with Saga of the Bear and/or Fenrisian Wolves to throw S10/ID wounds onto.

   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




Andilus Greatsword wrote:

You should always take a Lord with Saga of the Bear and/or Fenrisian Wolves to throw S10/ID wounds onto.


You should never "always" do anything, but that is one idea that can work at times, if you don't mind paying that many points for 1 model.
   
Made in ca
Dour Wolf Priest with Iron Wolf Amulet






Canada

jcd386 wrote:
Andilus Greatsword wrote:

You should always take a Lord with Saga of the Bear and/or Fenrisian Wolves to throw S10/ID wounds onto.


You should never "always" do anything, but that is one idea that can work at times, if you don't mind paying that many points for 1 model.

Fair enough, but it's a good idea to do it if you're running 1 TWC Deathstar.

   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Ellicott City, MD

Well, with two wounds each, they do have a lot going for them...


;-)

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JohnS

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Made in us
Veteran Wolf Guard Squad Leader



DC Metro

It is ironic that while henchman and MSU are really rough matchups for most Vlka armies, Wolfstars anchored by Bearlords are really, really great for murdering paladins.

Your storm shields and disposable wolves mean you'll live long enough to throw around your S10 thunder hammers and while both units will tear each other up, at the end, it will probably be Draigo, a jerk with a warding staff, and a bear lord punching each other in the face, while the rest of the Wolves run rampant.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




I dunno I just dont see TWC offering a lot for me against the armies I play most often against. I play vs tau where my regular troops destroy theirs any day of the week and I play vs GK which would be a costly exchange of wounds either way.

I have trouble thinking of what a list with TWC would look like in say 1500pts... What would you guys take?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




At 1500 i would do this:

Rune Priest: 100
4 Wolf Guard, Combi-Melta: 92
4x5 Grey Hunters, Melta, Rhino: 480
2x5 Grey Hunters, Las/Plas Razorback: 300
TWC Storm Shield and Powerfist: 105
TWC Storm Shield and Powerfist: 105 (SEPARATE 1-MAN SQUADS!)
3x5 Long Fangs, 3 ML: 315

Hide the TWC behind rhinos until you are ready to pounce.

Anything else using TWC takes way too many points IMO, whereas this just used them as a distraction / threat and still has very good shooting ability and mid field threat potential.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran



Upper East Side of the USA

pretre wrote:Yes, TWC are pretty worth it. My standard SW list is:

Roland Krakenbeard -


Admit it, you only think your list is "worth it" is because when you deploy your Wolf Lord you bellow "RELEASE THE KRAKEN <dramatic pause> beard"
   
Made in cn
Shunting Grey Knight Interceptor




Fuzhou, China

I think GK is the biggest enemy of TWC, since they have the mighty force weapons.
If you forgot to give your TWC's a SS, 1 force weapon wound will make you lost 50pt or more ( that's I said that TWC squad do need 1 SS)
But with 1 SS guy, 4 TWC can charge nearly anything except IC + Paladins, such as 5 men purifiers squad(2 halberds,1 hammer,2 psycannons), 5 men GKSS or 5men GKT/Paladins (no IC)---their I4/6 attacks can't make enough wounds, and your SS guy can handle that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/12 18:49:02


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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




jcd386 wrote:At 1500 i would do this:

Rune Priest: 100
4 Wolf Guard, Combi-Melta: 92
4x5 Grey Hunters, Melta, Rhino: 480
2x5 Grey Hunters, Las/Plas Razorback: 300
TWC Storm Shield and Powerfist: 105
TWC Storm Shield and Powerfist: 105 (SEPARATE 1-MAN SQUADS!)
3x5 Long Fangs, 3 ML: 315

Hide the TWC behind rhinos until you are ready to pounce.

Anything else using TWC takes way too many points IMO, whereas this just used them as a distraction / threat and still has very good shooting ability and mid field threat potential.



You cant have 5 long fangs and 3 heavy weapons each long fang besides the squad leader has to have a heavy weapon.
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran



Upper East Side of the USA

RELEASE THE KRAKEN... BEARD!


Due to the rise of GK, TWC are not as good as before, but they still seem fun. A mech list w/o TWC and with GH is probably always going to be a better bet, if winning is your thing...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/13 15:09:13


 
   
Made in us
Tunneling Trygon





The House that Peterbilt

They appear to be the counter to many of the necron shenanigans, so I could see them coming back in favor if necrons continue to gain popularity.

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Made in us
Ferocious Blood Claw





Oregon

TWC are far more than just troop killers. If you kit them out for maximum wound allocation you can still fit a SS on each member of the pack and maintain the punch needed to blow up vehicles and take care of swarms.
And when did one certain army start making people NOT play certain units... I suppose if you where tailoring a list devoted to defeating GK, then maybe you wouldn't take TWC. But that just seems silly to me...

I've had a lot of success with a 1500 list consisting of 1 Rhino and four Razorbacks (TL Las), two three man TWC packs, and some long fangs. I wouldn't take the list to 'Ard Boyz, but I don't play big events like that anyways.

You do need to invest in a 'Wolfstar' for this pack to be at it's full potential however. So a TWL is key and more over, an idea of what your packs main objective is going to be (ie tank hunting, troop killing, counter attack, etc...). I kit my packs out once that part of my list is decided. TWC can, no, are a HUGE lightning rod indeed, so keep that in mind. I have run them bare bones and decimated my opponent because they spent the first two turns shooting at my wolves while then ran around the table top. So there is another way you can use the pack at minimum efficiency and still get close to maximum effectiveness out of them.

I think a lot of people mistake this unit as a battering ram, when it is in fact a much better support unit, or a fear unit. Keeping them to cover but still within charging range can deter your opponent from getting to close. But, I have used the Pack with a kitted lord to cause serious panic and grief, I just lost several models in the process. Point-wise it was certainly worth it.

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Dakka Veteran



Upper East Side of the USA

Rhapsody wrote:And when did one certain army start making people NOT play certain units... I suppose if you where tailoring a list devoted to defeating GK, then maybe you wouldn't take TWC. But that just seems silly to me...


My point was first that a better tournament list can be made without TWC than with them (this is true based on how well SW do w/o TWC in tournaments), my second point was that now that GK is popular, TWC will have more bad matchups, since many things from GK will give them problems.
   
Made in us
Furious Fire Dragon




In my game room playing Specialist GW games

It also depends on what kind of terrain you have on the table. With enough multi floor ruins, I can place everyone on floor 2 or above and avoid your TWC altogether. I've done it in a few tournaments with my Eldar and watched the opposing space wolf player almost pull out his hair in frustration at not being able to charge his TWC into my dire avengers on floor three.

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Made in us
Shepherd





lol Kinda funny people say twc aren't good anymore since the gk came out.. By that logic no army should bring cc or multi wound models since theres a posisbility they could die. lol


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Oh and since de could have dl and have lots of poison shots we should just forgo anything with wounds or toughness 4. lol

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/13 20:31:07


The enemy of my enemy is a bastard so lets kill him too.


 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran



Upper East Side of the USA

Draigo wrote:lol Kinda funny people say twc aren't good anymore since the gk came out.. By that logic no army should bring cc or multi wound models since theres a posisbility they could die. lol


No no, not as good. That's all I meant. If a lot of people run GK, than in your meta TWC won't be as good. And neither will other multiwound CC models. I didn't think I was saying anythnig controversial there.

Heck, I never used them before, but I want to at some point. I just know they aren't as good as the mech GH lists that serious torunement dudes take.
   
Made in no
Boom! Leman Russ Commander






Oslo Norway

Thundercav is an awesome unit. You don't have to go balls to the walls expensive with them. 2xTWC with 1 powerfist is a great unit. Tough enough to demand quite a lot of firepower/cc to take out, quick, able to engage almost all kinds of units successfully... and totally expendable

   
Made in gb
Regular Dakkanaut




Page 85 of the rule book its pretty clear that assaulting units in buildings dont have to be on the same floor of the unit they are attacking if there isnt room for them, as long at they get enough distance on their move and charge rolls they can attack up to the units in the building without having to physically fit on the same floor. Distaces are measured from the heads of the attacking units as well which is pretty good for a big model like TWC.

Roadkill Zombie wrote:It also depends on what kind of terrain you have on the table. With enough multi floor ruins, I can place everyone on floor 2 or above and avoid your TWC altogether. I've done it in a few tournaments with my Eldar and watched the opposing space wolf player almost pull out his hair in frustration at not being able to charge his TWC into my dire avengers on floor three.
   
Made in gb
Excited Doom Diver






Shrewsbury

And page 83 of the rulebook makes it clear that ''only infantry, jump infantry, monstrous creatures and walkers may move on the upper levels of a ruin' so being on floor two of a ruin means cavalry can't assault upstairs as they can't move into base to base even with the exception you quoted.



This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/14 05:21:20


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Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I do not play in that many tournaments but I play against tournament players and I find the value of thunderwolves really depends on a combination of missions, points level and terrain along with your metagame.

Thunderwolves are worth it as troop killers for 2000 point Nova format since there are there is always 5 objectives and table corners which you need to kill the troops and thunderwolves are great at that. I run a battle leader (for the initiative 5 and better leadership) on thunderwolf with a wolf claw and two ablative wound wolves accompanied by single wolf with a wolf claw. Considering the frost weapon for the strength 6 for insta killing scarabs but not convinced since for anything else the wolf claw is cheaper and better other then insta killing t3 multiwound models.

Grey Knights other then Paladins, death cults and large units of purifiers really aren't that much of an issue with small 5 marine units they might lose some to an explosion or shooting before you get there and if you get lucky you can wipe the unit before the hammer even swings. Purifiers with Halberds can be bad but thats why you have ablative wolves for and Halberds tend to die before psycannons in shooting.

Missions and terrain really effect thunderwolf effectiveness as dawn of war puts your farther away and with spearhead your opponent can hug the corner. If there is too much terrain you have to make difficult terrain checks too much which will slow you down. The infantry on other levels usually isn't a problem as stated and most tournaments make the objectives on ground level.

Larger thunder wolf deathstar units really cost too much compared to other death stars and aren't all that effective against the current crop of death stars. Paladins with Drago, Deathcult assasins with an inquisitor with rad and psychotroke grenades, wraiths with whip coils, assault terminators.

The last death star build I ran was
thunder wolf lord with runic armor, storm shield, wolf claw, wolf tail talisman
3 thunder wolves with fist, shield, nothing.

If you have points (2000+ or ardboys level) you can add ablative wolves for the lord or a saga of the bear if you afraid of getting insta killed, stormshield on the fist can be nice or 4th wolf with melta bombs but I find that spending too much points on the wolfstar really makes it more of a points sink and you want to run it as lean as possible where it is effective as possible for the points.

Not a fan of the 1 wolf squads with fists as they swing last so might get killed before they get to swing and have the life expectancy of an attack bike.

Hope this helps.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/03/14 06:00:58


 
   
 
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