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Hello,

I'm experimenting with different HQs and I've come to a deadlock.

Kharn or Typhus? Both seem really nice, even with the point difference. Thoughts?

Typhus is a nice model for looks but kharn is too good for his points and i personally think hes only second to Arihman fluff wise.

But never having to take psychic tests? AND terminator armor? AND feel no pain?

TBH Lucius seems the best to me, I really like his model, WS7? I6 and all the little extra rules he gets for only 160pts? He's pretty epic IMO.

I'm doing a Khorne/Nurgle (Death & Decay) army, so I want to keep it down to those 2.

I thought and honestly cannot decide, so why not both? Together they could add a real hit to the enemy, what else are you putting in there?

Nurgle portion:
Typhus
Plague Marines X6
Plague Marines X6

Khorne
Khorne Berzerkers X6
Possessed Marines X5
Summoned Greater Daemon

Neutral:
Vindicator
Rhino
Obliterators
Dreadnought

Plague Marines can soak up massive fire and use Plasma Guns and can really bog enemies down in combat as well with Typhus. Kharn is just a beast and with only 6 Berzerkers he can really boost that squad. Gives your enemy a real head scratcher over who to shoot. Backed up by the Vindi and other units this could wreck most armies.

I've got extensive experience fielding Kharn the Betrayer - he is my go to HQ choice for my Black Legion lists whenever I choose not to take Abaddon.

For 165 points he is really an excellent HQ choice. You will find this guy striking at I6 with 7 Str 6 attacks, and hitting on 2s, you will get MOST of those converted straight into wounds. However, be aware that any 1s will pretty much waste your own troops. Can get very costly when he decides to squish 63 points of your own Berzerkers in an assault phase. Another serious drawback you will need to watch out for is the lack of Eternal Warrior - any Powerfists, Claws, or Krak / Melta / etc will squish him quickly. Either avoid squads with this wargear or only assault into them if you can keep Kharne out of BtB with the bad stuff . . or kill everything before it swings.

Typhus is much more of a mixed bag. Any model over 200 pts without Eternal Warrior is questionable. Ahriman makes up for this by rarely needing to engage in close combat - sit back, throw spells, be scary. Tyhpus does not work that way. As far as I recall he is *NOT* natural toughness 5, but rather 4(5), so he also suffers from the Instant Death syndrome. However, if its a contest against another IC, he can do the same thing back to them. Either way pretty sketchy.

To be honest, if I wanted a Nurglified HQ to lead part of my army, I would run Chaos Lord w/ Daemon Weapon or a Nurgle Prince. Bonus +1d6 poison (4+) hits can rock pretty hard, and nurgle princes are relatively cheap and efficient in terms of target saturation. Keep him behind a rhino and lump him into combat at the right time and he will earn so many points back.

Good luck out there!

I think I may drop the obliterators. Only 1 actually managed to kill something. That was 5 Kroot with a flamer. They could go, Kharn could come in. The Tau would cry.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But from my experience with PM's, an entire 1500 pt Tau force unleashed every single weapon that it had on me. About 75% hit. All wounds were saved by an armor save or feel no pain. Plague Marines for the win!

Seen a few strange comments in this thread

Dr.What, Tyhpus, despite the benefits you listed earlier, isn't that good. He's nice enough, but isn't immune to instant death, and his bodyguards will fall down soon enough, or he will get into combat with something S8 and die pretty quickly, He may be in Termie armour, with FNP, but only T4 for the purpose of instant death, and I think only the TDA 5++ and the not taking psychic tests, doesn't matter, he only has Warptime doesn't he? Warptime is rubbish now. It can still be useful if you have a terrible role, but even if you only get a couple of hits, its probably not worth the risk or re-rolling everything.

Pahtommaster, Lucius is not the best. Far from it, not bad for his points I suppose, but certainly not that worthwhile, even if I were running a mono-Slaanesh army, I wouldn't even think about taking him (I have done in the past, so this is speaking from some experience) above DP or sorcerers.


Basically, Kharn is going to offer you much more. He is a killing machine, ok has his own drawbacks, can be instant killed, but is less points, has more attacks, will kill everything (including your own men), also gets to go first against a lot of things (and nearly everything capable of instant killing him), also can go in your rhino.

I was debating Kharn and Typhus.

Also, his spells are Nurgle's Rot and Wind of Chaos.

Keep the oblitz trust me try to utilize the plasma cannon against infantry.

Well, the choice is Kharn or using a summoned Greater Daemon from one of my MANY champions. Still 5 attacks and a higher WS. A 4+ Invuln save is still fine.

Oh yeah forgot about those, Nurgle's Rot will be useful if your about to charge into a Ork mob, or IG Blob squad, big bug squad, something like that. But against MEQ, or even against smaller (weak) squads, its not going to do much damage, or will do too much and Typhus will wipe everything out easily and have a turn being shot at. Wind of Chaos, has the same kind of problem for me, its a powerful attack, but your about to go into CC, probably with something else accompanying him, having that flamer as well seems a bit overkill in a lot of situations. There ok powers, but certainly not tipping the balance for me, still Kharn every time.

Or there is the option of putting Kharn in Typhus' place and keeping the greater daemon. And simply give the enemy a melee mess to deal with. Then get another rhino to fill the point gap.

Greater Daemon doesn't count as your minimum 1 HQ choice by the way...

Yes, I think Kharn will return to my force.

Kharn is a hoot. SO chaotic. Alternatively a khorne champion can bring the pain and doesn't turn on your own troops as much.

Dr. What wrote:Well, the choice is Kharn or using a summoned Greater Daemon from one of my MANY champions. Still 5 attacks and a higher WS. A 4+ Invuln save is still fine.

Oy! Still thinking GDs are good?

GD:
160 odd points ... with a 4++ Save, only.

Or, a DP with a far better 3+/5++ save, and maybe lash, or 3+/4++ with Doombolt, for the same cost.

No, Dr. What, GDs blow comparatively.

Kharn will mulch entire squads by his lonesome, not to mention he literally CANNOT miss. The issue is that he can be instagibbed and has to split off from his squad (cause he may smack your own dudes!)

Typhus is great against Tyranids and the like, and any army with expensive non-EW chars (Mephiston). But his 5++ doesn't go very far and he can be squished, and his 225 pt price tag is a bit much.

Brothererekose wrote:

Dr. What wrote:Well, the choice is Kharn or using a summoned Greater Daemon from one of my MANY champions. Still 5 attacks and a higher WS. A 4+ Invuln save is still fine.

Oy! Still thinking GDs are good?

GD:
160 odd points ... with a 4++ Save, only.

Or, a DP with a far better 3+/5++ save, and maybe lash, or 3+/4++ with Doombolt, for the same cost.

No, Dr. What, GDs blow comparatively.

Greater Daemons *are* still good, but only to fulfill the dreadnaught / random MC in your face facility. If you are trying to bring it as an HQ you might be disappointed. I have run lists with a CSM champion (30 points) as the target, so the model ends up being 130, not 160 odd points. Do not forget this creature can automatically land 2" off your rhino hull and assault 6 inches in the same turn it arrives, meaning if your opponent is not paying careful attention - and sometimes even when he is - the GD can crush some really important gak and be a huge distraction. It serves exactly the same purpose as a Daemon Prince or Dreadnaught. Shoot at it, kill it, or else. It is also T6 and Str 6 and 4++, something no daemon prince can claim.

In a list without DPs, bringing a GD can throw your opponent off balance.

In a list WITH DPs, bringing a GD can KEEP your opponent off balance and provide redundancy. Trust me, no one likes needing to shoot down 3 MCs or risk having them rape something in the face.

The GD will most likely pop out of a Possessed Marine Champion. They are intended to run right into melee anyway to tie up battlesuits and such. Battlesuits carry the things that can splatter a plague marine without a chance of surviving. Wacking them with a 40k balrog will help a LOT.

Note: The 3 armies I play against are:
Tau (The most often fought)
Space Marines
Imperial Guard

Kharne. He kills about the same amount of stuff as Typhus, but he costs less and can ride in a rhino. Just on general principle you should keep heroes who don't have eternal warrior on the cheap side.

I decided that, for 1500 pt. games (which is what I play most of the time), Kharn will lead my forces. 2000 pt games will feature Typhus or both.

Actually, if you're usually facing tau, you need more bodies than h2h badasses. *Any* of the choices are going to be great.

Kharn is by far the best HQ named character in C:CSM. Abaddon is a bit too costly these days but Kharn is a beast, especially against overly confident GK players.

FYI: I played against that Tau army yesterday. 1 squad of Plague Marines (5) with Kharn attacked. Killed 26 Kroot. Took ~ 300 dice at them. 2 + Kharn came out in the end. Contesting a point after having just ripped a Pirhanna to shreds.

The special character I run the most is typhus - He rocks ! The only threat to him that I have seen are thunder hammers and power fists - make sure he has a big retinue or is in a squad

I have run kharn with 9 bezerkers with a skull champion - they have been an excellent unit. Kharn is basically a regular chaos lord who hits on 2 + no matter what - well thats the way I like to think about him at least. So for his points and what he does I am very pleased

If GW changed typhus stats to being 5(6) as I personally think he should be or the other choice is base 5. Then he would be well worth it - the trick with him is to make sure he is not in base to base contact withthe enemy, but is a part of the squad and is within 2" of the enemy

I love the model so I useually run my army with kharn and a lord with termi armor, MoN and plaguebringer - its basically the same thing

In games over 1500 points I always take abaddon

sumi808 wrote:[...]the trick with him is to make sure he is not in base to base contact withthe enemy, but is a part of the squad and is within 2" of the enemy
[...]

he's an independent character so cant attack unless he's in b2b

i actually prefer typhus, mainly because of the model for him but it depends what you are up against and what you want to transport them in (if anything).

typhus messes up about as many of the enemies infantry as kharn because he re-rolls to wound anything T4 or less and doesnt hit his own men (or dreads/MCs or whatever else is in the combat), granted he can poke himself in the face but odd are slimmer than loosing your own models with kharn


both are great, typhus is much better against monsters (wounds on 4's, always) and perhaps against T5 stuff (especially if it has multiple wounds).... kharn is a lot easier to use, beats a lot of face and fits in a rhino