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Most folks claim that the Emperor was the source for the gene seed for the GK's.

I say the gene seed comes from Horus. Garro was (is?) a Luna Wolf and Luna Wolves were Horus's chapter. Garro it appears is setup to be the start of the Inquisition, and the Inquisition needs Space Marines and Garro seems to be recuriting ex-Lib to his cause. I'm betting this is the start of the GK's and their fluff will be changed to say that Garro was the start of them or some combo of Garro and the UM Libbie he recruits.

Am I totally off here?

The new 'dex states it as fact that it comes from the Emprah.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Garro was one of the first GKs, though, he was one of the men brought to the Emprah by Malcador.

Though, as far as I know, the GKs' early history isn't iterated in detail, I think that it's safe to assume that those brought by Malcador were the 'founding fathers' of the GKs... but they had nothing to do with the geneseed; merely trained the chapter, set it up, yaddy yaddy yadda.

I imagine that wouldn't be spoken about much today, or if it were, the figures would have different names... what with the GKs getting mind-wiped, given new names (and thus identities as Knights) themselves 'n' all.

evancich wrote:Most folks claim that the Emperor was the source for the gene seed for the GK's.

I say the gene seed comes from Horus. Garro was (is?) a Luna Wolf and Luna Wolves were Horus's chapter. Garro it appears is setup to be the start of the Inquisition, and the Inquisition needs Space Marines and Garro seems to be recuriting ex-Lib to his cause. I'm betting this is the start of the GK's and their fluff will be changed to say that Garro was the start of them or some combo of Garro and the UM Libbie he recruits.

Am I totally off here?

Yes.

Nathaniel Garro, Captain of the Death Guard Space Marine Legion, his Primarch is Mortarion.

Do you see any Luna Wolf?

If, then youre looking at Garviel Loken...

Oh and a more minor foible of mine is to point out that Garro was a Death Guard

As the selected marines brought to Malcador were from several chapters (so different geneseeds) and it is said that the Grey knights have a unique geneseed it puts to rest any fan speculation that the Grey Knights are decended from a chaos legion.

It's pretty much stated that their gene seed is based on the emperor in the new codex.

The one surviving debate surrounding the Grey Knight gene seed is whether it was used to make the exorcist chapter. According to 'Heroes of the Space marines' it was, but then some people have the whole 'BL doesn't count' ideology. (a.k.a. the 'I can't be bothered reading BL therefore it doesn't count' ideology)

That's not the objection.

The objection is that it comes from C.S. Goto.

Kanluwen wrote:That's not the objection.

The objection is that it comes from C.S. Goto.

Heroes of the Space marines has several short stories by several authers. Not one of them is C.S. Goto

ifStatement wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:That's not the objection.

The objection is that it comes from C.S. Goto.

Heroes of the Space marines has several short stories by several authers. Not one of them is C.S. Goto

I didn't say that's where it came from...

C.S. Goto introduced the idea in one of his Deathwatch novels.

Steve Parker, the chap who wrote "Headhunted" where the Exorcists/Grey Knights connection comes from, built upon that.

Why? I have no idea.

Kanluwen wrote:

ifStatement wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:That's not the objection.

The objection is that it comes from C.S. Goto.

Heroes of the Space marines has several short stories by several authers. Not one of them is C.S. Goto

I didn't say that's where it came from...

C.S. Goto introduced the idea in one of his Deathwatch novels.

Steve Parker, the chap who wrote "Headhunted" where the Exorcists/Grey Knights connection comes from, built upon that.

Why? I have no idea.

He mentions it in one single line about one of the deathwatch who happens to be an Exorcist. It is there to underpin why the character feels the way he does at that particular moment and has nothing to do with the plot of the story. How that has anything to do with building on something CS goto wrote is beyond me.

How?

Because every piece of fluff existing on the Exorcists prior to C.S. Goto's Deathwatch novel being published made no mention of the Grey Knights.

He introduced the idea, Parker went with it. That's not a big deal as far as things go, but the big problem is simply that the Grey Knights are not in a position to be used as the basis for gene-seed of an upcoming Chapter.

Kanluwen wrote:How?

Because every piece of fluff existing on the Exorcists prior to C.S. Goto's Deathwatch novel being published made no mention of the Grey Knights.

He introduced the idea, Parker went with it. That's not a big deal as far as things go, but the big problem is simply that the Grey Knights are not in a position to be used as the basis for gene-seed of an upcoming Chapter.

There are no Exorcists in either of Gottos deathwatch novels. What the feth are you on about?

If you say so.

Fact is it's a one-off mention and should roundly be ignored because it contravenes every other piece of background on the Exorcists.

If you want to say they're suspected to be related to the Grey Knights? Fine. But there's nothing definitive.

Kanluwen wrote:If you say so.

Fact is it's a one-off mention and should roundly be ignored because it contravenes every other piece of background on the Exorcists.

If you want to say they're suspected to be related to the Grey Knights? Fine. But there's nothing definitive.

It doesn't contravene any other background for the exorcists as it is the only place where their gene seed is ever mentioned.

I'm still unsure if your objection is to do with this or has something to do with CS Goto?

The line in the Steve Parker short story explicitly states they used the GK gene seed, that's pretty definitive. If you want to argue with whether that is canon or not fair enough. The fact is it doesn't contradict anything nor does it have anything to do with CS Goto.

Both.

I'm very distinctly remembering it as being in a novella from before "Headhunted", but not exactly where.

I should also add that in the FW piece on the Exorcists...
"Gene-Seed (Predecessor): Classified (By Inquisitorial Bull)".

They did that on purpose, the explanation being that it allows for them to potentially be Grey Knight descendants, but there's nothing definitive.

It's basically the whole Blood Ravens fiasco all-over again. One line gets taken, then it snowballs and all of a sudden it's "definitive!".

So both are wrong yet you can't come up with anything which contradicts it or giver any indication that CS Goto had anything to do with it other than say you were sure you heard about it somewhere?

If you don't rate the short story as canon fair enough. No need for BS.

Not "heard about". I don't deal in fanbased rumors when discussing canon/not-canon. I distinctly remember reading it from a damn novella prior to "Headhunted".

I'm trying to find it--and if I can't find it in one of my novellas, then it must have been a bad piece of fanfic that stuck in my head and I equated it with that hackjob Goto for some reason.

I have no problems with speculations/mysteries, by the way. I just hate definitive statements on things like this where previously it was kept as a "mystery" and then some git comes along and feels he needs to make the mystery go away.

Kanluwen wrote:I have no problems with speculations/mysteries, by the way. I just hate definitive statements on things like this where previously it was kept as a "mystery" and then some git comes along and feels he needs to make the mystery go away.

So do you feel the same at how before the latest GK codex was released nobody knew their gene seed was drawn from the Emperor? Does everything in the 40k universe which isn't cleared up have to remain ambiguous for you? You must hate the HH series.

ifStatement wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:I have no problems with speculations/mysteries, by the way. I just hate definitive statements on things like this where previously it was kept as a "mystery" and then some git comes along and feels he needs to make the mystery go away.

So do you feel the same at how before the latest GK codex was released nobody knew their gene seed was drawn from the Emperor? Does everything in the 40k universe which isn't cleared up have to remain ambiguous for you? You must hate the HH series.

It's the way it's done...
As a mystery it was good...
When revealed... it isn't really as good... I mean some bits are but toehrs bits are just...
Bad...

I suppose if you were intrigued by the mystery built around the Exorsists gene seed then the way it was divulged would be somewhat anticlimactic for you. I don't know why that would discredit it though.

"I'm not going to accept anything as cannon unless it is told to me in a worthwhile climactic manner. Yes, luke is darth vaders son but leai is not his daughter!"

There's a difference between "ambiguous" and "mysterious" in my book.

The original Index Astartes article for the Blood Ravens? It was mysterious, with some tantalizing clues thrown in there (most of which pointed towards the Blood Ravens actually being Imperial Fist or Raven Guard descendants).

And then C.S. Goto steps in it with "THOUSAND SONS!". Now everyone points to the Index Astartes article as "definitive proof" because of one damn line about how Puritanical members of the Imperium compared the Blood Ravens and their reliance upon psykers and predicting the future for warfare to Magnus.

Prior to "Headhunted"(Not ashamed to admit that I DID in fact equate a piece of bad fanfic to C.S. Goto--that's my own bad, and I've altered the documentation I have on a USB drive to reflect such), the Exorcists were just a by-product of the 13th Founding. They had no Primogenitor Chapter, they were created at the behest of the Inquisition. Why?

We didn't know. All we knew was that the Exorcists were involved in a ritual which involved them voluntarily opening themselves up for possession and then breaking it themselves. If they failed--they died.

It was far more interesting that way.

But now? That gets pointed at as "proof" of them being Grey Knight Successors because of one line which doesn't even really line up with the context.

The Grey Knight/Emperor thing was pretty irksome though.

Again I don't really see the sense in discrediting fluff as not canon because you're unhappy it's no longer a mystery.

I didn't say it's "not canon".

I said it should be ignored. There's a difference.

I ignore fluff all the time because I think it's stupid. In terms of stuff which I will actually say is "not canon" though, for myself, it's basically anything older or almost as old as I am (24 years old) and anything by C.S. Goto.

Oh, and stuff by Robin Cruddace.

Man is as bad as C.S. Goto in my book.

ifStatement wrote:I suppose if you were intrigued by the mystery built around the Exorsists gene seed then the way it was divulged would be somewhat anticlimactic for you. I don't know why that would discredit it though.

"I'm not going to accept anything as cannon unless it is told to me in a worthwhile climactic manner. Yes, luke is darth vaders son but leai is not his daughter!"

Well they had a msyery right?
It was all mysterious and so on...
Then they come out with what really kinda looks like a half assed idea to fill the mystery...
It's like being afraid of a shadow and finding out it's a teddy bear...

purplefood wrote:

ifStatement wrote:I suppose if you were intrigued by the mystery built around the Exorsists gene seed then the way it was divulged would be somewhat anticlimactic for you. I don't know why that would discredit it though.

"I'm not going to accept anything as cannon unless it is told to me in a worthwhile climactic manner. Yes, luke is darth vaders son but leai is not his daughter!"

Well they had a msyery right?
It was all mysterious and so on...
Then they come out with what really kinda looks like a half assed idea to fill the mystery...
It's like being afraid of a shadow and finding out it's a teddy bear...

In this case it's more like seing a teddy bear shaped shadow and finding out it is indeed, the shadow of a teddy bear. As everything pointed towards the Exorcists being GK descendants anyway. It's kind of like when Elton John came out as gay, everyone already knew and nobody felt cheated that he didn't do a big reveal by opening a huge glitter covered envelope live from broadway.

Except NOTHING pointed towards the Exorcists being Grey Knight descendents. So it's more like "seeing a half-cast shadow, and nothing should be casting that shadow".

The Forge World piece? That came after Parker stepped in it with "Headhunted".

Prior to that, there was nothing suggesting that the two were related. Literally: NOTHING. The Grey Knights and Exorcists had nothing in common except being Astartes. The Exorcists had close ties to the Ordo Malleus, and the Grey Knights worked for the Ordo Malleus as their Chamber-Militant.

Kanluwen wrote:The Grey Knights and Exorcists had nothing in common except being Astartes.

...and being expert demon specialists leagues ahead of the other chapters. Sure, nothing, right.

As far as I can see it's pretty clear it pointed towards GK gene seed. The chapter was created with the specific goal of creating a chapter good at dealing with demons and the creators are prepared to take unprecidented liberties (exposure to demon possesion) in doing so. So which gene seed would they have used? I wonder.

ifStatement wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:The Grey Knights and Exorcists had nothing in common except being Astartes.

...and being expert demon specialists leagues ahead of the other chapters. Sure, nothing, right.

And this is where the problem with "definitives" based upon one line comes up.

The Exorcists and this concept of them being "Daemon specialists" is not like they train to fight ONLY Daemons like the Grey Knights do. The Exorcists have one advantage which is really what puts them "leagues ahead of the other Chapters".

You know what that is?
Ties to the Ordo Malleus. The Exorcists, through their ties, had elements which were commonly called in to fight alongside of the Ordo Malleus and its Chamber-Militant, the Grey Knights.
Why does this happen? Because of the fact that the Exorcists went through a voluntary possession which they then had to clear themselves of or be slain. There's another part of it, however, in that their home world--"Banish"--houses a huge Ordo Malleus complex.

And the ties to the ordo malleus would in no way suggest that their gene seed may have been that of the grey knights right?

Kanluwen wrote:Except NOTHING pointed towards the Exorcists being Grey Knight descendents.

Far from "NOTHING" it would seem.

ifStatement wrote:And the ties to the ordo malleus would in no way suggest that their gene seed may have been that of the grey knights right?

Kanluwen wrote:Except NOTHING pointed towards the Exorcists being Grey Knight descendents.

Far from "NOTHING" it would seem.

This is the problem with these discussions after someone makes a definitive statement in one place...

Why would "ties to the Ordo Malleus" indicate that the gene-seed of the Grey Knights was used?
You're using evidence from NOW to discuss something which was put forth before this.

Grey Knights had nothing to do with the Exorcists then. Grey Knights did not have Successors then---and quite frankly, in my opinion, they STILL don't, no matter what you want to say about the canon status of "Headhunted". There aren't enough examples of Grey Knight gene-seed to really spend willy-nilly making a Successor Chapter.