Rerelease of Confrontation Rules and miniatures

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**Kroothawk**

Seems like that Legacy Miniatures and CoolMiniOrNot will rerelease streamlined Confrontation rules and expand metal miniature releases:

Oz wrote:Out of the Ashes The Phoenix Arises!!!
SOME HUGE NEWS OUTTA GAMA!!!!

I was informed that Legacy Miniatures and Cool Mini or Not will be releasing Confrontation Phoenix Edition a re-release of the Confrontation 3.5 gaming system!!!

Expect to see a cleaned up rules set and metal figure releases!!!

Terribly excited for this news, it's all I can share right now, but keep an eye on this space for more info as soon as I can get my hands on it!!!

http://throneofangels.blogspot.com/2012/03/out-of-ashes-phoenix-arises.html?m=1

Almanro wrote:I also received some Q&A from David of Legacy about the Phoenix Project (with my notes as NoA - Notes of Almanro):

Q: Is it a new edition of the C3 manual with the integration of the C3.5 rules?
A: It starts from version 3 and 3.5 with a complete review and refresh (but I do not follow directly this part) (NoA: Ask atacam for this part! )

Q: Are there changes (improvements) to C3.5 rules, or will they remain the same as we know?
A: I think there will be changes

Q: If the previous is "yes", is there the opportunity to propose changes or the project is already closed and tested?
A: The project is not closed and is being tested

Q: Is a print hard copy version planned or only the pdf will be offered on-line? If a hard copy version is planned, which will be the languages?
A: A hard copy of the manual will be available in English and French. (NoA - at the moment it seems not in Italian... )

Q: Do you think to re-release all the Confrontation miniature range?
A: No. Of course the miniatures that are too old won't be re-released (NoA - also considering the sales prices of ludikbazar and e-bay, I think they will produce firstly the rarest miniatures or otherwise the ones that are more requested, they can not reproduce a catalog of over 1500 models in few months! )

Q: Will there be new miniatures no longer in "limited edition"?
A: There will certain be new miniatures, but not immediately. Be patient!

Q: Will be the cards modified to improve the game dynamics?
A: Yes

Q: What is the expected timing?
A: Gama will show (NoA - today in Las Vegas) previews of what you will see from now to 6-9 months

Q: Metal or plastic or resin?
A: Resin and Metal

Q: Possible costs?
A: In line with other miniature games (certainly not Legacy prices! Which will remain for the moment for the next few waves)

Q: Is there the possibility to create an official tournament circuit supported by the brand?
A: Yes

I hope these answered to a lot of questions, I'm eager to know when will be today's presentation and if a report will be shown!

Have a nice day,

Almanro

http://www.dragonpainting.net/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=3049&start=20

**MightyGodzilla**

WOW!!! That is so ridiculously radical I can hardly believe it. It's like when FOX resurrected Family Guy. I love that mini line!

MOAR GRIFFON!!!
MOAR WOLFEN!!!
MOAR DEVOURERS!!!

**TomServo**

Wow - this made my day! Confrontation was my favorite line of miniatures, by far. I hope they can follow through on this.

**MeanGreenStompa**

I've already seen CMON's prices for confrontation minis...

short of winning the lottery, I'll be passing...

**Kroothawk**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I've already seen CMON's prices for confrontation minis...
short of winning the lottery, I'll be passing...

Q: Possible costs?
A: In line with other miniature games (certainly not Legacy prices! Which will remain for the moment for the next few waves)

**RiTides**

Very interesting! It always baffles me that a model line that is/was so awesome and seemingly popular, could go bust... seems like there's such potential here.

**MightyGodzilla**

RiTides wrote:Very interesting! It always baffles me that a model line that is/was so awesome and seemingly popular, could go bust... seems like there's such potential here.

When it came out Rackham could only keep either Europe or the US satisfactorily stocked, but not both. It didn't have the operations capacity to do both. I loved the sculpts but I always had to go down to Los Angeles to get them, road tripping around convention time. The internet based rumor milling wasn't as prevailent, at least not for me - I had to buy their full color catalogue once a year. The rules were in French only for the longest time as were the companion cards. I'm assuming that by the time they got all of this squared away (because they did...all except the stock supplies) it was too late for them. And in small to medium sized locales GW was all the rage and there wasn't much competition or word of new games from across the pond. The nail in the coffin IMO was when they went to prepainted minis, because if they didn't have a gaming following by then, they sure as hell lost the painting cult buying their stuff.

Their sculpting was phenominal (embarrassed to say that the Fiannas at a convention was what brought my attention to the game as a whole), as was their painting (because IMO that Rackham painter were the first to introduce nonmetal metallics to the mini scene as a standard).

Edit-
Oh and in an era where bits ordering was all the rage and supported by the companies (fond memories GW) Rackham was atrocius - you could order bitz from France to the US, but DAMN did you shoot a kidney stone to get it shipped.

**kenshin620**

This could either be one of the best things to Confrontation, or the worst. Crossing fingers

**plastictrees**

kenshin620 wrote:This could either be one of the best things to Confrontation, or the worst. Crossing fingers

Given that Confrontation has no support at all at the moment I'm not sure how this could be the worst thing to happen to it.
Even if all the releases and rules of this effort are terrible we still have 3.5 and the old models/cards...which is what we have right now.
I'm going to go with cautious optimism.

**MeanGreenStompa**

Kroothawk wrote:
MeanGreenStompa wrote:I've already seen CMON's prices for confrontation minis...
short of winning the lottery, I'll be passing...

Q: Possible costs?
A: In line with other miniature games (certainly not Legacy prices! Which will remain for the moment for the next few waves)

Given the experience I had with CMON's 'wording choices' in the past, I think we'll see these remain at strangling high price for a while.

I bought the giant owl and rider because it was 'limited edition' and 'only 5 left'... then they just started making more. It was shady and left me with a very poor view of the company. I think they're greedy.

**Alpharius**

Once bitten twice shy.

I LOVED Confrontation from 3.0 up until the Confragnarok debacle.

I can't see this ending well, but as previously noted, some support beats no support!

**jake**

Ehh... I love Con, but 3.5 drove me from the game. My hope is that they revise the rules to be something closer to Con 2.

**Alpharius**

Ugh - I hope not!

Talk about a confused mess!

Well, more Confusing than usual when it came to R's English translations.

I'll meet you halfway and hope for 3.0!

**jake**

Alpharius wrote:Ugh - I hope not!

Talk about a confused mess!

Well, more Confusing than usual when it came to R's English translations.

I'll meet you halfway and hope for 3.0!

See, I feel just the opposite. 3.0 was a step down in my opinion.

**PhantomViper**

jake wrote:Ehh... I love Con, but 3.5 drove me from the game. My hope is that they revise the rules to be something closer to Con 2.

I certainly hope not, Confrontation 2 was a jumbled mess! It was almost impossible to get into the rules unless you had someone already experienced with them teach you...

I hope they go for 3.5 or at least 3.0...

**Hyenajoe**

I agree that 3.5 rules unbalanced the game in favor of spellcasters and shooters, but having played from the first edition, 3.0 seems the best ruleset.

I'm curious to see what the prices would be.

**Muggzy**

Sweet baby Jeebus! I hope they release all the limited minis again, like the Mail Order Only Apostate of Darkness!
The way I read that is that they are acknowledging that the current prices are unsustainable and will eventually bring them down to a competitive level in keeping with similar lines. Here's hopin'!

**Morathi's Darkest Sin**

Sadly I think this boat has passed for me now, although I'll keep an eye on it.
There are a couple of models I wouldn't mind grabbing for Mordheim or Heroquest if they where at a fair price.

**Absolutionis**

If they keep the prices lower and more reasonable, I may actually finish my Daikinee Elves collection.

I wonder how well the extortionate these-are-limited-edition-oh-JUST-KIDDING minis that CMON sold.

**NAVARRO**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
MeanGreenStompa wrote:I've already seen CMON's prices for confrontation minis...
short of winning the lottery, I'll be passing...

Q: Possible costs?
A: In line with other miniature games (certainly not Legacy prices! Which will remain for the moment for the next few waves)

Given the experience I had with CMON's 'wording choices' in the past, I think we'll see these remain at strangling high price for a while.

I bought the giant owl and rider because it was 'limited edition' and 'only 5 left'... then they just started making more. It was shady and left me with a very poor view of the company. I think they're greedy.

You think? Nahhhhh... CONF prices are quite good if you are filthy rich. / sarcasm

**Commander Cain**

Heh! I pretty much bought the entire confrontation line when ludik bazaar were selling them off. Drawers and drawers of the models, must get back to them!

**Altruizine**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
MeanGreenStompa wrote:I've already seen CMON's prices for confrontation minis...
short of winning the lottery, I'll be passing...

Q: Possible costs?
A: In line with other miniature games (certainly not Legacy prices! Which will remain for the moment for the next few waves)

Given the experience I had with CMON's 'wording choices' in the past, I think we'll see these remain at strangling high price for a while.

I bought the giant owl and rider because it was 'limited edition' and 'only 5 left'... then they just started making more. It was shady and left me with a very poor view of the company. I think they're greedy.

If you're griping because what you thought was an exclusive model turned out to be a mass-produced one, I have no sympathy for you at all. Buying models based on their scarcity (whether it's for profiteering resale or simply because of a collector's mentality) instead of because you enjoy the piece and want to own/use one is a completely greasy mode of behaviour, and I laugh heartily whenever somebody's scheming in that realm goes off the tracks.

Now, it still doesn't reflect favourably on CMoN's business practices, since they're probably intentionally labeling things as exclusives in order to generate sales amongst the aforementioned type of scoundrel (with full knowledge that they'll be willing to de-exclusify the item at a later date, devaluing the item amongst that segment of their customers). And if it turned out they were gouging you at the "exclusive" price point and then later reducing it I would have endless sympathy for you. But as it stands, suck it up. You still have your awesome model, and now other people who weren't wargaming at that time, or didn't have the money, or didn't play that army, or whatever else, can also enjoy that awesome model.

Anyway, this is really cool news. Me and some gaming buddies started getting into Confrontation last summer, and though the effort eventually fizzled out after a few of us started new WFB armies/got new armybook releases, that might change in a hurry if Confrontation comes back to life and starts to receive support.

I really hope they can secure the talents of some of the original Rackham sculptors for the new models. Benoit Cosse's work, particularly on the Dwarves and the Goblins, is some of my favourite sculpting of all-time. I suppose some of the sculptors have moved on, and have new contractual obligations (like Aragorn Marks at GW) but hopefully some of them are also willing and able to revisit the Confrontation brand.

**NAVARRO**

Altruizine wrote:

If you're griping because what you thought was an exclusive model turned out to be a mass-produced one, I have no sympathy for you at all. Buying models based on their scarcity (whether it's for profiteering resale or simply because of a collector's mentality) instead of because you enjoy the piece and want to own/use one is a completely greasy mode of behaviour, and I laugh heartily whenever somebody's scheming in that realm goes off the tracks.
.

Well I'm not speaking for myself because the minis I get are the ones I like, period... but whats wrong with one collector buying collector items for the sake of collecting rare things, I mean everyone buys minis for a diferent reason why should your reasons be more noble and less "greasy" than others?

**Alpharius**

I think he bought one, and perhaps blew his gaming budget because he thought it was a limited edition model that was almost sold out that he really wanted to get...?

Be careful of accusing someone of having a 'greasy mode of behavior' without, you know, knowing all the facts first.

**Altruizine**

NAVARRO wrote:
Well I'm not speaking for myself because the minis I get are the ones I like, period... but whats wrong with one collector buying collector items for the sake of collecting rare things, I mean everyone buys minis for a diferent reason why should your reasons be more noble and less "greasy" than others?

Because hoarding something based primarily on its scarcity prevents somebody else who would actually use the item from having one.

Alpharius wrote:I think he bought one, and perhaps blew his gaming budget because he thought it was a limited edition model that was almost sold out that he really wanted to get...?

Be careful of accusing someone of having a 'greasy mode of behavior' without, you know, knowing all the facts first.

Why would that be a problem unless it permanently prevented him from getting whatever else he would have bought instead of the Owl if it had never been listed as limited?

Also note that the post began with "If", so if it was an accusation, it was a conditional one.

**Morathi's Darkest Sin**

Thats was the point, from what I remember MGS rushed to buy it because to all intents and purposes according to CMON it was about to be gone forever.

However it was not something he really needed to buy right then, unless it was gone forever, so they forced his hand with what clearly looks like false advertising in retrospect.

So when it shows up a few months later as back in stock and all hunky dory. Well yeah, Like him I'd be ticked as well.

**Alpharius**

Altruizine wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:
Well I'm not speaking for myself because the minis I get are the ones I like, period... but whats wrong with one collector buying collector items for the sake of collecting rare things, I mean everyone buys minis for a diferent reason why should your reasons be more noble and less "greasy" than others?

Because hoarding something based primarily on its scarcity prevents somebody else who would actually use the item from having one.

Alpharius wrote:I think he bought one, and perhaps blew his gaming budget because he thought it was a limited edition model that was almost sold out that he really wanted to get...?

Be careful of accusing someone of having a 'greasy mode of behavior' without, you know, knowing all the facts first.

Why would that be a problem unless it permanently prevented him from getting whatever else he would have bought instead of the Owl if it had never been listed as limited?

Also note that the post began with "If", so if it was an accusation, it was a conditional one.

Note that the entire comment:

If you're griping because what you thought was an exclusive model turned out to be a mass-produced one, I have no sympathy for you at all. Buying models based on their scarcity (whether it's for profiteering resale or simply because of a collector's mentality) instead of because you enjoy the piece and want to own/use one is a completely greasy mode of behaviour, and I laugh heartily whenever somebody's scheming in that realm goes off the tracks.

Did you really think that wasn't going to come off the wrong way?

Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:Thats was the point, from what I remember MGS rushed to buy it because to all intents and purposes according to CMON it was about to be gone forever.

However it was not something he really needed to buy right then, unless it was gone forever, so they forced his hand with what clearly looks like false advertising in retrospect.

So when it shows up a few months later as back in stock and all hunky dory. Well yeah, Like him I'd be ticked as well.

Me too!

CMON has a somewhat controversial past that I don't pretend to quite understand fully.

Given that, plus the not so limited limited miniatures and some of their other tactics, well, it doesn't always leave people with the Warm and Fuzzy.

**plastictrees**

Another thread derailed by elitist owl-hoarders and their detractors. Damn you all.

I've only played a few games of 3.5. It certainly makes shooters potent, didn't play with enough magic to comment on that side of things. 3.0 made casters an expensive burden.
I think using scenarios and increasing the amount of terrain usually used should mitigate both concerns though.

**NAVARRO**

Altruizine wrote:
NAVARRO wrote:
Well I'm not speaking for myself because the minis I get are the ones I like, period... but whats wrong with one collector buying collector items for the sake of collecting rare things, I mean everyone buys minis for a diferent reason why should your reasons be more noble and less "greasy" than others?

Because hoarding something based primarily on its scarcity prevents somebody else who would actually use the item from having one.
.

They collect the item based on what they like, colour, shape, rarity etc and being part of ones collection is as good as use as you playing fetch with a uraken gobbo with your dog. Since when the use you give to the items you buy is more legit than what others choose to use it for? Get a grip mate.

**Polonius**

There are models that I know I want, or will want, that I don't buy because I know they will be available later. I know I want to paint up an Empire Clockwork Steed, but I'm in no hurry because I know I have all the time in the world.

Now, if that had been a limited edition, I would have bought it early, and saved it.

Because I didn't buy it immediatly, I was able to use that money on other things. I wasn't exactly living hand to mouth at the time, but I had to watch how much I spent in any given month. To know that I had lost opportunities due to a change by a seller would annoy me greatly.