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I am starting work on a new DW force and one of the questions I keep coming back to is what is the best choice of gear for Belial. Since points don't matter with all 3 choices being even I am looking for opinions on how to go about his gear, and as such helping me to pick a path to decide how to make my custom leader.

I am torn between the Lightning claws for the Initiative 5 attacks to help clear the way for the rest of his squad, or the Thunder Hammer and Shield to make him as durable as possible.

I am working on army list sizes from 1500 to 2000 points but really only want to make 1 Belial. At 2000 points his squad will get an Apothecary with TH/SS. This will be in addition to the breakdown of the squad for all sizes of games that includes at least 3 TH/SS, a standard bearer and a CML and then maybe more TH/SS or some LC's on the remaining troops,

Anyone care to comment?

I run pur TH/SS..people freak and don't know what to do..

I have come across armies like that (all TH/SS nothing else) - they die real nice to IG with lots of ordinance templates, lascannons + meltas and a host of other things. Though a guy did take them against my deathguard army once and I shot my entire army at on unit of 10 termies with TH/SS for 2 turns and only managed to kill 5. He then got in combat with my 10 terminators with IoT and killed them all in 1 turn of combat. I didnt get invulnerable saves :(

I like your idea though about the 5 termie squads where 3 x TH/SS, 1 x CML and 1 x seargent.

For you hq, apothecary, banner sound good and I think your special character should have the thunder hammer and storm shield. Because he will have 4 attaks a turn ? With his weapon skill and strength thats at least 2 enemies dead and they dont get any saves

On another note with my death guard army I once got 4 plasma cannons to hit a HQ with that special character, banner, apothecary and termies in one turn, inflicted twenty wounds and non died :(

The 2/3 plus save can be a real pain in the azzzzzz

I run him with a thunder hammer and storm shield, not really because I want to, but because I have to. A named character without anything better than a 5++? He is pretty awesome with lightning claws, but can die awful fast...

Abyssel wrote:I run pur TH/SS..people freak and don't know what to do..

I do, I do! Bolters, and lots of 'em. The more I make you roll, the more 1s you're likely to roll.

I run TH/SS, that 3++ comes in handy! You can't always escape the hidden PF

I had to make the same decision recently - and though its a shame to waste that i5, these guys are right; there are just too many power fists / klaws around to not have a shield.

The hidden fist does concern me. I am also wondering if going with ~3 claws in his squad in addition to his claws and a librarian with the force sword wouldn't create enough high Initiative attacks to help clear out threats. I am planning, for whatever that is worth to use this unit as a counter punch supporting the rest of my DW or as a lone deep strike threat to cause havoc.

Now, I will run him with a squad of thunder hammers and a Cyclone so I can take advantage of the extra attack provided by the banner. Plus an apothecary really helps that squad when someone learns bolter fire is more dangerous than the hidden power fist.

I run the claws on him to take advantage of the I, number of attacks, etc.

Draigo wrote:I run the claws on him to take advantage of the I, number of attacks, etc.

I used to for the extra attacks on a better WS till that 5++ kept screwing me over... a lot...

I haven't had any issues. lol

The ++5 screwing me over happens more when my pally's run into those darn hammenators or dl spam. lol

Draigo wrote:I haven't had any issues. lol

The ++5 screwing me over happens more when my pally's run into those darn hammenators or dl spam. lol

Well its good it has worked for ya, however, my concern in most games is those LC's won't get used some games.

In a lot of games I find I'm charging into terrain more often than not. While I'm sure the next DA dex we may get nades on our termis, without them now, TH/SS is far superior. You never have to chance it, your always going last, you always have a 3++, and your always str 8.

That being said, for Belial, I run the following:

Belial - TH/SS
5x DWT's - 1x TH/SS + apoth, 1x TH/SS + banner, 2x TH/SS, 1x TH/SS + CML
Interogator Chaplain - TDA, Combi-melta

Runs a lil bit, but with Belial and the CHappy to soak up low str/low AP shots, and the apoth makes them all but immune to small arms fire, the squad seems to do well. Of course the chappys just a filler for now until I get some predators lol...

sumi808 wrote:I have come across armies like that (all TH/SS nothing else) - they die real nice to IG with lots of ordinance templates, lascannons + meltas and a host of other things. Though a guy did take them against my deathguard army once and I shot my entire army at on unit of 10 termies with TH/SS for 2 turns and only managed to kill 5. He then got in combat with my 10 terminators with IoT and killed them all in 1 turn of combat. I didnt get invulnerable saves :(

I like your idea though about the 5 termie squads where 3 x TH/SS, 1 x CML and 1 x seargent.

For you hq, apothecary, banner sound good and I think your special character should have the thunder hammer and storm shield. Because he will have 4 attaks a turn ? With his weapon skill and strength thats at least 2 enemies dead and they dont get any saves

On another note with my death guard army I once got 4 plasma cannons to hit a HQ with that special character, banner, apothecary and termies in one turn, inflicted twenty wounds and non died :(

The 2/3 plus save can be a real pain in the azzzzzz

Couple of things, firstly you can only have a unit of 5 Termies, pretty sure you can't have a 10 man Deathwing squad. Also, you would get your Inv save against thunderhammers, why wouldn't you? Their Librarians don't even have Null zone..

As for Belial, TH/SS is probably the best way to go with him.

I hope to all the Ruinous Powers and their little dog that you're wrong Zid. The fact that Grey Knight Terminators got grenades is one of my biggest pet peeves about that book. Prior to that it was explicitly stated that Terminator was too cumbersome to effectively use grenades and only those rare few suits with auxiliary grenade launchers got to shoot them. You could say, well Grey Knights all have those, but we know they don't as Codex Space Marines already has an entry for that bit of gear which does something different. It really feels like a complete about face on the established fluff there. Besides, some units need to make the Crusader's assault launcher mean something.

I've always run mine with lightning claws for the extra I and A. I've never had a problem with him getting killed in close combat to anything but massed low S attacks. Granted I don't think I've played anyone yet that actually had a hammer unit that could insta-kill him either. Hidden PF's tend to get shot to bits and Belial and the other two LC guys in the squad tend to make mince meat of the squad prior to the hidden fist getting to strike. I'm also not a tournament player or anything and lack the extra th/ss to put on him anyway.

Just my experience.

I use Lysander's model, so guess what I run...

Freman Bloodglaive wrote:I use Lysander's model, so guess what I run...

The storm botler and power sword option right? Actually I realized I forgot the answer the question. For me, I arm him with whatever is handy. Terrible I know, but with a magnetic set of arms I tend to give him whatever set I grab first, rarely ever looking, except for those rare cases where my foe specifically asks that I choose in advance, in which case I'll often offer to let him choose since it never really matters one way or the other to me.