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Powefist Gaming Thursday night, played against PJ. I've played against PJ several times before and we always have a lot of banter so this will be a enjoyable game anyway. What's more interesting is PJ is the fella I swapped my Guard army with for his G.K. So we are both using each other's old armies against each other, lol, though both have changed since the other has now owned the army. I'll give PJ some help with his Guard, though he's had just as many games with them as I have had with my Purifiers . Looking forward to this!

Grey Knights 'Purifer Order' - 2,000 points


HQ

Castellan Crowe

Elite

Venerable Dreadnought - 2 x twin-linked autocannon, psybolt ammo & searchlight
Venerable Dreadnought - 2 x twin-linked autocannon, psybolt ammo & searchlight

Troops

5 x Purifiers w/ Rhino - 2 x psycannons, nemesis halberd, nemesis daemon hammer - justicar w/ master crafted nemesis daemon hammer
5 x Purifiers w/ Rhino - 2 x psycannons, nemesis halberd, nemesis daemon hammer - justicar w/ master crafted nemesis daemon hammer
5 x Purifiers w/ Rhino - 2 x psycannons, nemesis halberd, nemesis daemon hammer - justicar w/ master crafted nemesis daemon hammer
5 x Purifiers w/ Rhino - 2 x psycannons, nemesis halberd, nemesis daemon hammer - justicar w/ master crafted nemesis daemon hammer
5 x Purifiers w/ Rhino - 2 x psycannons, nemesis halberd, nemesis daemon hammer - justicar w/ master crafted nemesis daemon hammer
5 x Purifiers w/ Rhino - 2 x psycannons, nemesis halberd, nemesis daemon hammer - justicar w/ master crafted nemesis daemon hammer

Heavy Support

Dreadnought - 2 x twin-linked autocannon, psybolt & searchlight
Dreadnought - 2 x twin-linked autocannon, psybolt & searchlight


Imperial Guard 'Steel Lions' - 2,000 points

HQ

Company Command Squad w/ Chimera - 4 x meltaguns - Chimera w/ heavy flamer
Company Command Squad w/ Chimera - 4 x meltaguns - Chimera w/ heavy flamer


Troops

Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x meltaguns - Chimera w/ heavy flamer
Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x plasma guns - Chimera w/ heavy flamer
Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x plasma guns - Chimera w/ heavy flamer

Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x plasma guns - Chimera w/ heavy flamer
Veterans w/ Chimera - 3 x plasma guns - Chimera w/ heavy flamer

Fast Attack

Vendetta
Vendetta
Vendetta

Heavy Support

Manticore - heavy flamer
Manticore - heavy flamer
Manticore - heavy flamer

Pre-game Analysis

Right, I am pretty much bricking it about this game as I know how dangerous mech Guard is and old my list, though PJ has done some tweaks it's now even more dangerous. The Guard list is packed with meltas, lascannons and S10 blasts to bust my vehicles to pieces and plenty of plasma guns to slag my infantry. To add to it there's a crap load of av12, which is going to be hard for my S8 and S7 shootyness.

I think that if I can stop Vendettas and Manticores shooting my tanks should be safe, which means my infantry should be safe even longer. If I can then slow down the melta units I think I'll be ok. That's my plan anyway.

Game: Capture & Control + Spearhead

Deployment

I won the roll off and decided to deploy bottom right corner. The terrain on the board is virtually mirror, though the corner I've given PJ has slightly less room for this tanks as the ruin is slightly bigger. This means he will have to deploy in the ruin and get cover but risk dangerous terrain or deploy on the hill. Now, knowing PJ and any Guard player they will put their Manticores on the hill. I hope my autocannons are in range

So, I deploy bottom right corner and spread my tanks and Dreadnoughts out around the 12" radius. I use a bastion to get some LOS blocked to a few tanks, though the centre ruin should give me cover nicely. Cowardly Crowe is at the back behind a wall, he will stay there all game.

PJ deploys putting his Manticores on the hill, though one is behind a wall and has cover. He clumps his tanks together and keeps his 'Dettas close.

Both our objectives are in the far corner of where we deployed, surprise surprise..









* Tactical Notes

Ok, I think if I roll out first turn and pop smoke on everything it should give me some cover. I hope PJ will then come closer and do the same trick, the following turn I can unleash psycannon hell from my static Rhino-bunkers. The Dreadnoughts will be the only firing units in my first turn, so those Vendettas are going to have it.

Game plan is to blast the Vendettas as those lascannons will chew up my Rhinos and Dreadnoughts pretty easily. Manticores will be next, though I've spread out so I am hoping PJ gets some bad scatters and I am taking half strength hits. After I'll be going for melta units, I am hoping in that time I have blasted everything else the melta units haven't come too close. Lets rock!

Turn 1

PJ scout moves the Vendettas to get a cover save and shockingly moves them all closer to me. Two move down his board edge and look to be within 24" range while the other moves down the left flank, which I hope the Rhinos by the bastion can clock it.

My first turn, I hold position on pretty much everything so I can blast some Vendettas back to the stone age, only two Rhinos move and those are the ones from behind the bastion.

Shooting; one squad attempts to blast a 'Detta though it out of range. Psycannons blast out and though Pj does reasonably well on cover saves, one Vendetta on his table edge goes boom and the other is weapon destroyed. The other Vendetta I get lucky with the psycannons from the two Rhinos and it's immobilised, which turns into a wreck as it went flat out. Autocannons blast at the Manticores, I explode the one towards PJ's table edge while I stun the other new the left flank. All in all a happy turn.

PJ realises his mistake handing those Vendettas to me on a silver plate and moves the last one 6" away, though I fear it's too late for the surviving gunship. His melta Chimeras come forward using the ruin for cover, though all three tanks pop smoke just in case. Plasma Chimeras lag behind and don't really get out of the deployment zone.

Shooting; single Manticore fires and lays the smack down on two Rhinos, though only scores shaken and stunned. One Dreadnought is immobilised by the remaining Vendetta and shaken. Multi lasers blast at my Rhinos and do zip.





* Tactical Notes

Well that was a explosive first turn. Two Vendettas and Manticore have gone boom and another is wrecked, that's three big threats down in a single turn, I couldn't be happier. I've also managed to surpress a Manticore too so that's brought me some time. Unfortunately for PJ his rolls to damage my tanks wasn't as good as his cover saves. He's only managed to shake and stun two Rhinos and we know what's going to happen to those results and immobilise a Dreadnought which has perfect LOS on several units next turn.

Plan is to blast the immobilise Dreadnought at the remaining Vendetta and take it out. Other Dreadnoughts will blast the Manticores while psycannons open up on the melta Chimeras. If the Chimeras are opened up I'll psycannon the troops inside. That should deal with the first wave of Chimeras, which PJ really should have rocked all Chimeras up together, and with luck deal with the serious anti tank hardware PJ is packing.

Turn 2

I remain static and moving nothing, I want to use my mass fire power to tackle the Chimeras and I'll then move up next turn.

Shooting; autocannons blast and the Manticore in cover by the objective is taken down to china town and the last Vendetta is nuked. Psycannons blast the CCS Chimera closest towards my table edge, after smoke saves I make it go boom and one guy inside dies and the squad is pinned. I blast more psycannon shots into the centre Chimera, PJ does very well with covers and it takes 28 psycannon shots to make it go boom - two dudes die from shrapnel. Remaining psycannons blast the CCS Chimera closest to PJ's table edge and it's immobilised - that will do me enough.

Guard second turn; PJ moves the Veteran meltas out the crater of their tank into part into centre cover, it appears they will be out of melta range so I suggest he issue the go to ground order so they can get better cover and issue get back in the fight turn after. Plasma Chimeras come rolling forward and all pop smoke while the last Manticore rolls down the hill to get some cover.

Shooting; PJ issues the special cover order to the melta unit so they will get 3+ cover next turn. He fires a single multi laser and the immobilised Dreadnought does nothing while the Manticore fires at a Rhino, I get cover and fail and the storm bolter is broken off, oh noes! I think another multi lasers blasts one of the Rhinos near the bastion and it is shaken and the storm bolter is also ripped off on that one too.





* Tactical Notes

I don't think I've had a too bad turn here. Another Manticore has gone, the last Vendetta went boom and two Chimeras carrying meltas are now craters and a final one has been immobilised. All in all a good turns work for the Purifiers. I think things maybe might turn around next turn if PJ can bring those meltas forward and slag my Rhinos at long range and then plasma the units inside, I guess we will wait and see.

Next turn I'll open fire on the exposed CCS and Veteran melta units, I'll also blast the immobilised Chimera. Remaining shots will go into the plasma Chimeras, though I haven't got a huge amount which will be in range of those.

Turn 3

Once again I remain static, I do have in my mind to drive a Rhino forward, though with all that melta about and if I don't succeed in taking out said melta then my Rhino will be in trouble and I've lost a unit which can get to PJ's objective.

Shooting; immobilised Dreadnought blasts the immobilised Chimera and it goes boom! All melta guys inside die and the Commander takes a wound, though he gets blasted by storm bolters and is dead meat. I attempt to fire at the other CCS though I am out of range so I fire all psycannons and remaining storm bolters at the melta Veterans in front of me, PJ goes to ground, though I manage to kill all but three who fail morale and fall back 7". I blast autocannons at the Manticore, it does well on cover though this turn it is shaken.

PJ's third turn; he moves a plasma Chimera he had hidden by the bastion near his table edge back towards his objective. I then suggest he go balls to the wall and move all three plasma Chimeras through the ruin or around it, spin them around and bail out the plasmas to bring down the pain. I also suggest he move the remaining CCS to issue orders. He does all I suggest, though unfortunately the unit which is falling back walks off the board.

Shooting; PJ issues bring it down to one plasma squad, they fire and wreck a Rhino - Purifiers bail out and hide behind though one plasma unit still has LOS on them. Bring it down is issued to another squad and another Rhino is taken out, it goes boom and I lose a psycannon Purifier. The remaining plasma unit then opens fire and nukes the Purifiers behind the wrecked tank.







* Tactical Notes

Ok, I've taken some damage this turn, though that's ok, I've got plenty more Rhinos and Purifiers. I know I suggested to PJ to do that tactic and now those Guardsmen are dead, though they would be dead next turn anyway and at least PJ has taken something down with him.

Next turn I'll send a Rhino back towards my objective. PJ has one troop unit which is now heading towards his objective and he has popped smoke on the Chimera. If I can stop that I can get a win, though it's going to be tight.

Turn 4

The depleted Purifiers move to engage two Veteran units in combat I move one Rhino through terrain towards my objective and pop smoke and move another forward 12" and pop smoke, hopefully this one can get close enough to the Guard objective if time rumbles on. One of the Venerable Dreadnoughts moves to blast side armour of a Chimera.

Shooting; psycannons blast and wipe out the last CCS who are caught out in the open. Venerable blasts the side armour of a Chimera and wrecks it. Remaining Dreadnoughts fire at the Chimera heading towards PJ's objective, it gets cover thanks to my own Rhino and PJ makes the saves. I blast the rear of one of the Chimeras the plasma Veterans bailed out of and rip off the multi laser. Psycannons blast into a unit of Veterans, two left and they pass morale.

Assault; Purifiers multi charge the depleted Veterans and a full unit, they cast cleansing flame and kill a total of 5 Veterans before combat starts. After the dust has settled I've lost a Purifier though hammers have smashed the Guardsmen to bits and I wipe them out via sweeping advance.

PJ's turn, I suggest he move the Chimera 12" towards his objective and bail out the Veterans and run them, he does this and gets his objective. He then moves the Manticore to give cover to the Chimera. I also suggest he get the remaining plasma unit back inside thier multi laser-less tank and move it 6" away and rapid fire the Purifiers to death.

Shooting; plasmas blast the Purifiers and wipe them out. Multi laser from the supporting Chimeras blasts the rear of the Venerable Dreadnought and does nothing. Manticore blasts my oncoming Rhino and it's immobilised, there goes my objective possible taking unit.



* Tactical Notes

Ok, looks like I am looking at a draw now as PJ has his objective secured and there's no way I can get it. I haven't got mine yet though I only need to move a Rhino up to get it and job done.

Next turn I'll just fire on the Manticore and Chimera and hopefully score a big enough explosion to catch the Veterans so they take damage and run off. I know it's a long shot, though it's all I've got.

Turn 5

I move the Rhino onto my objective. I blast the crap out of the Chimera and Manticore near PJ's objective and I rip weapons off, immobilise and stun though no boomers. I blast the Chimera with the surviving plasma Veterans inside and do nothing. Psycannons blast the empty Chimera and it goes boom.

PJ's turn; the Chimera moves and the plasma Veterans blast my Venerable Dreadnought and it is shaken.

We roll for next turn and it happens, though PJ has one unit in my face which is going to do down and isn't going to get to my objective and I have no units which can really reach his by turn 7. We agree to call it and day and the game ends in a draw.







Summary

Wow, that was a shower of shrapnel! I am not sure if it's weight of fire power or just good dice rolls, but I didn't expect things to go boom so much and so easily. I am pretty sure that was good dice rolls.

The Purifiers did well. I was expecting them to have a tough battle with mass av12, though I think it was good dice rolls as first turn I took out three vehicles and then each turn after at least two were exploding or been taken out. As expected once the Purifiers were exposed the plasma easily ripped them to pieces, I am glad I kept them in the tank as long as possible.

I am wondering if that single Rhino should have made the break turn 3 instead of turn 4. There would have been a few threats about if dice rolls still would have happened. What if is always a good question.

In this game I think PJ made two critical mistakes. First was his deployment and scouting thos Vendettas. He should have deployed the Vendettas as far away from his Chimeras and then in the scout move put all Vendettas back with the bulk of armour. This would have kept them at range and would have been harder for me to deal with, instead he gave them to me on a silver plate. I also think he perhaps could have used the ruins more for cover as two Manticores I got clear LOS on. Perhaps if he placed all Chimeras together on one side of a ruin and then the Manticores inside the ruin itself they would have got cover. His other mistake was hanging the plasma tanks back and rolling the three melta tanks forward with only themselves to support each other, this combined with the Vendetta scout move feed the Guard piecemeal to me and I picked off units each turn.

I think if PJ kept his Chimeras and moved them all forward as one formation and then boosted the Vendettas at the back of the board and held the Manticores in a better position then I would have had a much tougher game. I am looking forward to a rematch, hopefully PJ will use this tactics and I doubt things will go the same way as this game.

Bit surprised he didnt outflank the Vendettas to go for a mid to late turn obj grab on your side.

Did he deploy them with the idea of softening up your mech line? If so then why scout them into you? They have much better range than your units, no?

Great looking table btw.

I think outflanking the Vendettas may have caused more damage to be honest. Scouting them towards me was the worst thing he could do.

I have no answers for your questions I'm afriad :(

The board is PJ's, he has got a airbrush and can make some really smart looking paint jobs. He's doing the hatch doors on me Rhinos, that's why they are missing. The rest of the terrain is the club's is Gale Force 9 kit, well most of it

Mercer you need better opponents lol... I loved reading that the guard castle play build moves towards the limited ranged GK army hahaha, wow...

I have to agree with the bad tactics comments on the Vendetta moves, but great report.

Picking the army list is only half the battle

I find that psyfleman-purifiers can actually out-shoot IG, assuming they don't spam those leman russes.

I liked this batrep - two evenly matched armies, good terrain and your opponent was wise enough to take your good advice when offered.

jy2 wrote:I find that psyfleman-purifiers can actually out-shoot IG, assuming they don't spam those leman russes.

Well yea, when your opponent decides to walk straight into your gunline it's not that hard. I actually disagree with this comment competely. In fact I would say AV 12 spamming IG is the bane of GK lists like his and the main reason why such GK lists get edged out in tournies by guard over and over. Had he played with some foresight he could have kept those rhinos moving and cutting his shots in half and now making his psychanons crap up against those 13 AV 12 vehicles. Now had he outflanked his Vendettas with some vets as well he could have easily guaranteed himself the draw in the auto draw mission and most likely just cogested his own DZ all day!

I find that psyfleman-purifiers can actually out-shoot IG, assuming they don't spam those leman russes.

Absolutely JY2.

But as Merc said in his pre batrep the IG list was melta/plasma heavy which is what 12-24 range?
Thats GK killer zone? (dont know much that much about GKs tbh)

I'm just very surprised he didnt use the Vendettas to kill or at least outflank Mercs harder units.

Got range? Utilize it, or at least utilize it with outflank/protracted deploy.

My 2cents - Im noob with GKs

haha I am surprised you won !

I thought those vendettas were gonna be the end of your rush - until I saw turn one lol

Those purifier squads are amazing - you get all that for 200 points or something - wow !

Another great batrep Mercer

That was a very interesting batrep, thanks for your efforts dude.

Btw where did you get that round ruin terrain piece in the middle of the board from?

Great battle report, I'm happy to see the Steel Lions again. I'm kinda curious though since I keep trying this and having decent success at lower point levels. If he'd traded melta/plasma guns to pick up an astropath, and knowing he was going second went full reserve and had 2 manticores roll on to direct fire, 2 vendettas roll on and fire and 4 chimeras come on turn 2 (and everything else show up the next turn), would the game have gone better or worse for him? Especially avoiding those turn 1 casualties.

That IG gunline looks deadly on paper but I agree with folks here in that he did not take advantage of it. In fact, he played them as if they were GK and you played GK like an IG gun line....

He had enough lascannons on the vendettas as well as manticores to wear down your long range shooting. I'd have kept at least one vendetta in reserve to outflank later.

I've had really good success putting in lascannons with some objective sitting plasma vets also. Gives them something to do and it's BS4 so quite effective. If he took down your dreads, I think it would have been a quite different game. Heck, even just the regular dreads would have really slowed down your vehicle hunting power and may force you to commit more troops into reaching his lines and thus opening them to melta fires.

BTW, ever consider just a single squad of interceptors? They can be quite useful for late game objective contesting and also can help with list flexibility vs things like necron AV13 walls and eldar tanks like fire prisms which don't benefit from the holofield or w/e the heck you call those things when shot from the rear. Typical load out for me is 5 men + hammer on the justicar + psycannon, no other upgrades.

Your list has alot of redundency and good dakka already. Purifiers should be able to handle all the choppy needs you may have but not alot of speedy units hence my recommendation. (also, can hide behind rhinos and the like to give you warp quake protection for your gunline from drop pods/trygons/other deep strikers.)

Good enjoyable read though.

The really interesting thing would be to see how a GK army that does not use dreadnoughts handles an IG parking lot . Say an all deepstrike GK army or fast transport melee GK army.

Basically if you cannot touch the manticores since they are blocked in by chimeras you are screwed and the only thing that can touch them for a reasonable point cost is dreadnought fire.

Red Corsair wrote:Mercer you need better opponents lol... I loved reading that the guard castle play build moves towards the limited ranged GK army hahaha, wow...

good one. In all seriousness, PJ should not have done this. He knows full well how to play 40k and I have no idea why he did and I don't think he did either. He even said during my first turn he had ballsed up.

Fattimus_maximus wrote:I have to agree with the bad tactics comments on the Vendetta moves, but great report.

Thanks about the report

sumi808 wrote:Picking the army list is only half the battle

True words!

jy2 wrote:I find that psyfleman-purifiers can actually out-shoot IG, assuming they don't spam those leman russes.

I think you're right on that one, dude

-666- wrote:I liked this batrep - two evenly matched armies, good terrain and your opponent was wise enough to take your good advice when offered.

Thanks, man

Red Corsair wrote:

jy2 wrote:I find that psyfleman-purifiers can actually out-shoot IG, assuming they don't spam those leman russes.

Well yea, when your opponent decides to walk straight into your gunline it's not that hard. I actually disagree with this comment competely. In fact I would say AV 12 spamming IG is the bane of GK lists like his and the main reason why such GK lists get edged out in tournies by guard over and over. Had he played with some foresight he could have kept those rhinos moving and cutting his shots in half and now making his psychanons crap up against those 13 AV 12 vehicles. Now had he outflanked his Vendettas with some vets as well he could have easily guaranteed himself the draw in the auto draw mission and most likely just cogested his own DZ all day!

Well, the Vets and CCS weapons are 12" range so they have to move forward. If PJ would have got first turn and deployed better I would have had a harder battle on my hands.

Ratius wrote:

I find that psyfleman-purifiers can actually out-shoot IG, assuming they don't spam those leman russes.

Absolutely JY2.

But as Merc said in his pre batrep the IG list was melta/plasma heavy which is what 12-24 range?
Thats GK killer zone? (dont know much that much about GKs tbh)

I'm just very surprised he didnt use the Vendettas to kill or at least outflank Mercs harder units.

Got range? Utilize it, or at least utilize it with outflank/protracted deploy.

My 2cents - Im noob with GKs

You're right, dude. I.G stuff in 12" range, he has to come forward. He would have been better giving cover to the Manticores and scouting the Vendettas back towards himself ir he deployed them towards me. If he did this the Vendettas would have been out of range as my autocannons only just reached the Manticores. Also, it was my psycannons what put the Vendettas down while the autocannons took out the Manticores. If the Vendettas wouldn't have scouted too close then those psycannons wouldn't have fired and I would have moved up. Basically scouting those Vendettas towards me put PJ on a slippery slope.

sumi808 wrote:haha I am surprised you won !

I thought those vendettas were gonna be the end of your rush - until I saw turn one lol

Those purifier squads are amazing - you get all that for 200 points or something - wow !

You know what, dude, so am I.

Yeah, just under 200 points inc the Rhino.

Grimnarsmate wrote:Another great batrep Mercer

Thanks, dude.

Pyriel- wrote:That was a very interesting batrep, thanks for your efforts dude.

Btw where did you get that round ruin terrain piece in the middle of the board from?

Thanks, dude.

Terrain is Gale Force 9 and is the club's.

Kiarou wrote:Great battle report, I'm happy to see the Steel Lions again. I'm kinda curious though since I keep trying this and having decent success at lower point levels. If he'd traded melta/plasma guns to pick up an astropath, and knowing he was going second went full reserve and had 2 manticores roll on to direct fire, 2 vendettas roll on and fire and 4 chimeras come on turn 2 (and everything else show up the next turn), would the game have gone better or worse for him? Especially avoiding those turn 1 casualties.

Thanks about the report.

I don't think a full reserve would work. Mech Guard works with armour saturation, if you're reserving stuff and even with reserve bonus you're not getting the saturation.

Turn 1 damage could have easily been reduced with better deployed by PJ. As mentioned to someone else, it was the psycannons which took out the Vendettas while the autocannons took out the Manticores. If the Manticores would have had cover they would have asborbed more fire. If the Vendettas had deployed close towards me and then scouted away, behind the Manticores, they would have been out of range as the autocannons were literally just in range of the Manticores. He then could have moved the Vendettas 6" towards me and blasted the standard Dreadnoughts.

sudojoe wrote:That IG gunline looks deadly on paper but I agree with folks here in that he did not take advantage of it. In fact, he played them as if they were GK and you played GK like an IG gun line....

He had enough lascannons on the vendettas as well as manticores to wear down your long range shooting. I'd have kept at least one vendetta in reserve to outflank later.

I've had really good success putting in lascannons with some objective sitting plasma vets also. Gives them something to do and it's BS4 so quite effective. If he took down your dreads, I think it would have been a quite different game. Heck, even just the regular dreads would have really slowed down your vehicle hunting power and may force you to commit more troops into reaching his lines and thus opening them to melta fires.

BTW, ever consider just a single squad of interceptors? They can be quite useful for late game objective contesting and also can help with list flexibility vs things like necron AV13 walls and eldar tanks like fire prisms which don't benefit from the holofield or w/e the heck you call those things when shot from the rear. Typical load out for me is 5 men + hammer on the justicar + psycannon, no other upgrades.

Your list has alot of redundency and good dakka already. Purifiers should be able to handle all the choppy needs you may have but not alot of speedy units hence my recommendation. (also, can hide behind rhinos and the like to give you warp quake protection for your gunline from drop pods/trygons/other deep strikers.)

Good enjoyable read though.

Dude, with regards to your thoughts about the Guard I couldn't agree more.

Interceptors I've used before and if I had the points I would definitely add some.

Pyriel- wrote:The really interesting thing would be to see how a GK army that does not use dreadnoughts handles an IG parking lot . Say an all deepstrike GK army or fast transport melee GK army.

Basically if you cannot touch the manticores since they are blocked in by chimeras you are screwed and the only thing that can touch them for a reasonable point cost is dreadnought fire.

If I didn't take the Dreadnoughts I'd take Purgation Squads with double psycannons. I also totally agree about the Manticores been blocked by Chimeras.

Red Corsair wrote:

jy2 wrote:I find that psyfleman-purifiers can actually out-shoot IG, assuming they don't spam those leman russes.

Well yea, when your opponent decides to walk straight into your gunline it's not that hard. I actually disagree with this comment competely. In fact I would say AV 12 spamming IG is the bane of GK lists like his and the main reason why such GK lists get edged out in tournies by guard over and over. Had he played with some foresight he could have kept those rhinos moving and cutting his shots in half and now making his psychanons crap up against those 13 AV 12 vehicles. Now had he outflanked his Vendettas with some vets as well he could have easily guaranteed himself the draw in the auto draw mission and most likely just cogested his own DZ all day!

Doesn't matter if the vendetta scouts forwards, back or whatever. Psyflemans will just shoot them down. They've got enough range. And of course guardsman will walk straight into your gunline. The majority of their AT/shooting is only 12"! That is the main reason why purifier-psyfleman GK's matches up well against guard. Move to mid-field and just wait for them to come to you. Then welcome them with 8 psycannon shots per unit while your psyflemans take down the vendettas and manticores/hydras. It's not an autowin, but GK-vs-IG will always be a fairly even fight.

The reason why IG have been doing better than GK in the tournament scene is, in my humble opinion, most GK builds are not very good. That is because they are so cheap and easy to build an above-average army that too many of the not-so-good players are playing them. These players will just get crush in a tournament against more experienced players with balanced lists. But put them (the GK's) in the hands of good players like Blackmoor, Yermom and me and we will absolutely wreck face. I played 2 GK players at the Ard Boyz Semi-finals (keep in mind that in order to get to the Semi's, they have to place in the top 3 in the Preliminaries) and I tabled both of them!




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ratius wrote:

I find that psyfleman-purifiers can actually out-shoot IG, assuming they don't spam those leman russes.

Absolutely JY2.

But as Merc said in his pre batrep the IG list was melta/plasma heavy which is what 12-24 range?
Thats GK killer zone? (dont know much that much about GKs tbh)

I'm just very surprised he didnt use the Vendettas to kill or at least outflank Mercs harder units.

Got range? Utilize it, or at least utilize it with outflank/protracted deploy.

My 2cents - Im noob with GKs

Right. The majority of the offense in a AV12 IG army is actually from the melta/plasma-vets. That means they actually have to move within GK psycannon range to really do any damage. This just plays into the hands of the grey knights.

Outflanking is definitely a viable strategy and should always be considered especially for C&C missions. However, keep in mind that however many turns the vendetta is in reserves is less offense for the army and makes target priority easier for the grey knights. Outflanking is a double-edged sword without an astropath in the army to control it.

What I would have done was probably to flat-out scout move all 3 vendettas but keep them away from psycannon range. Then on Turn 1, you can still use the offense of your entire army less any vehicles the psyfleman dreads shoot down (and believe me, they will shoot something down).

Well here is why I disagree with your above comment:

You are making theories based on assumptions entirely when you make comments about GK tearing up IG because they can out shoot three vehicle types out of a book with 20+ vehicles in it. The match up you are refering to is against a cookie cutter guard list. I find the more successful lists aren't these lists at all because they have a list that others aren't used to facing.

His opponent here relies too much on his manticores IMO. Every guard list should mix up their heavy slot. This is why my toolbox isn't simply full of hammers.

As far as GK players not knowing how to build their armies, I think this is a ridiculous comment as you can only speak for your local gaming scene. From mine, they know their stuff and I see a majority of great competitive lists. As far as the interwebs, shadowmoroe, hulksmash and many others seem to have fine composition and results.

jy2 wrote: These players will just get crush in a tournament against more experienced players with balanced lists. But put them (the GK's) in the hands of good players like Blackmoor, Yermom and me

And modest too...

CT GAMER wrote:

jy2 wrote: These players will just get crush in a tournament against more experienced players with balanced lists. But put them (the GK's) in the hands of good players like Blackmoor, Yermom and me

And modest too...

Theres lots like that online. lol

Draigo wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

jy2 wrote: These players will just get crush in a tournament against more experienced players with balanced lists. But put them (the GK's) in the hands of good players like Blackmoor, Yermom and me

And modest too...

Theres lots like that online. lol

Apparently so.

CT GAMER wrote:

jy2 wrote: These players will just get crush in a tournament against more experienced players with balanced lists. But put them (the GK's) in the hands of good players like Blackmoor, Yermom and me

And modest too...

I am humble when I should be, but I am also a very confident player as well.

Red Corsair wrote:Well here is why I disagree with your above comment:

You are making theories based on assumptions entirely when you make comments about GK tearing up IG because they can out shoot three vehicle types out of a book with 20+ vehicles in it. The match up you are refering to is against a cookie cutter guard list. I find the more successful lists aren't these lists at all because they have a list that others aren't used to facing.

His opponent here relies too much on his manticores IMO. Every guard list should mix up their heavy slot. This is why my toolbox isn't simply full of hammers.

As far as GK players not knowing how to build their armies, I think this is a ridiculous comment as you can only speak for your local gaming scene. From mine, they know their stuff and I see a majority of great competitive lists. As far as the interwebs, shadowmoroe, hulksmash and many others seem to have fine composition and results.

Perhaps I should clarify my stance. I'm not talking about the entire IG codex nor the entire GK codex. I'm talking about particular, competitive IG/GK builds. As in the Crowe-purifier competitive build with 4-6 psyfleman dreads. I am also talking about IG AV12 mech-spam that consistently does well in tournament play. Such as the GK and the IG builds presented in Mercer's battle report here. Both of these are TAC armies and also very balanced ones, cookie-cutter or not. Against such a guard build (and some others as well), Crowe-purifiers tend to do well and even give them trouble at times. And I'm saying this from my own experience playing as guards and playing against them as well.

But this is only my humble opinion. Others may differ due to their own experiences playing against guards/GK. That is perfectly fine. But if a guard player was ever to play against my Crowe-purifiers, I will show him what I am talking about.

My comments about how GK players do is not without merit. It isn't as ridiculous as you think. Just check out some of the tournament data out there. Although GK's do place high in some of them, the majority do just average or even below average. At my Ard Boyz Semi-finals, of the 6 GK players out of 44 players, I was the only one who placed in the top 10. No one else did well. Then at the Bay Area Open, out of 92 players and about 15-16 GK players, half of them placed in the upper half of the tournament and the other half in the bottom half. The grey knights are a cheap army to build and a fairly forgiving army. That's why lesser-skilled generals can still do alright with them, but once they go up against better players in a tournament setting, they find that it is not as easy to win.

Yes, skilled players will do well, whether in my pond or in yours. However, there are many more average, casual players playing the GK's than there are good GK players IMO. That's because they attract a lot of newer people with a rather cool-looking army that is cheap to collect and quite powerful even in the hands of novices.

@mercer
Nice report. Great to see detailed reports with lots of pictures.

Grey Knights seems to have an edge against Guard with fortitude keeping Grey Knights shooting and changing the shake/stun and move on to the next target strategy as well as Grey Knights having the advantage in the assault phase.

Guard has been out for a long time so you have people who been playing Guard for years and have that much experience and games behind them which can win out versus someone new to a codex without as much experience.

Personally I don't really like Guard as I prefer an army that competes in all phases. The common mech guard builds fail in the assault phase. You can take Straken or combined squads with power weapons in them but this is a fundamentally different list.

Grey Knights is such an army that competes in all phases. Has vehicles for good movement including fast skimmers. Shoots fairly well and assaults fairly well. Has good psyker powers although the librarian for defense is not always taken.

@jy2
The recent tournaments have mostly been won by Grey Knights or Necrons although Imperial Guard did win one of them.

As far as Grey Knights not performing well there are fluff bunnies and people who like certain units for modeling. Not everyone takes the cookie cutter top tournament lists. I like to run thunder wolves in my space wolf lists even though they are not optimal according to top tourney players like Tony and Reecius. They work well enough for me and were fun to model and convert.

Outflanking doesn't really help Guard that much against Grey Knighs unless Alrahem is involved. Vendettas only get 1 shot while arriving from reserve and Dreadnoughts are AV12 front/sides.

Avariel wrote:
@jy2
The recent tournaments have mostly been won by Grey Knights or Necrons although Imperial Guard did win one of them.

As far as Grey Knights not performing well there are fluff bunnies and people who like certain units for modeling. Not everyone takes the cookie cutter top tournament lists. I like to run thunder wolves in my space wolf lists even though they are not optimal according to top tourney players like Tony and Reecius. They work well enough for me and were fun to model and convert.

Outflanking doesn't really help Guard that much against Grey Knighs unless Alrahem is involved. Vendettas only get 1 shot while arriving from reserve and Dreadnoughts are AV12 front/sides.

Christian's IG won at the Bay Area Open, beating out Blackmoore's Draigowing (4th) and Goatboy's space wolves (2nd). I've actually had a chance to play Christian's IG before last year in a tournament. I actually tied him for 1st with my shooty nids (both with 3-0-1 records, with the draw coming from our game against each other, but then he got 1st because he won the tie-breaker over me) and would love to play him again one of these days. He is a very good player with a brutal 6-hydra AV12 guard list.

But I am not at all surprised by the success of GK players at tournaments. That's because good players playing the knights are definitely very tough to play against. However, what you probably don't see on the surface is for every GK player that places, there are probably 3-5 GK players who don't do nearly as well. Whether they're new players or they're more into the hobby aspect as opposed to the competitive side or they've never really played against really good players....all these play a factor into why the majority of GK players don't do as well in tournament play in ratio to the number of GK players compared to other armies like, say, IG or space wolves.

jy2 wrote:

Avariel wrote:
@jy2
The recent tournaments have mostly been won by Grey Knights or Necrons although Imperial Guard did win one of them.

As far as Grey Knights not performing well there are fluff bunnies and people who like certain units for modeling. Not everyone takes the cookie cutter top tournament lists. I like to run thunder wolves in my space wolf lists even though they are not optimal according to top tourney players like Tony and Reecius. They work well enough for me and were fun to model and convert.

Outflanking doesn't really help Guard that much against Grey Knighs unless Alrahem is involved. Vendettas only get 1 shot while arriving from reserve and Dreadnoughts are AV12 front/sides.

Christian's IG won at the Bay Area Open, beating out Blackmoore's Draigowing (4th) and Goatboy's space wolves (2nd). I've actually had a chance to play Christian's IG before last year in a tournament. I actually tied him for 1st with my shooty nids (both with 3-0-1 records, with the draw coming from our game against each other, but then he got 1st because he won the tie-breaker over me) and would love to play him again one of these days. He is a very good player with a brutal 6-hydra AV12 guard list.

But I am not at all surprised by the success of GK players at tournaments. That's because good players playing the knights are definitely very tough to play against. However, what you probably don't see on the surface is for every GK player that places, there are probably 3-5 GK players who don't do nearly as well. Whether they're new players or they're more into the hobby aspect as opposed to the competitive side or they've never really played against really good players....all these play a factor into why the majority of GK players don't do as well in tournament play in ratio to the number of GK players compared to other armies like, say, IG or space wolves.

The same could be said for any newer codex that has a huge influx of people wanting to try out the army for whatever their reason. Because I recall a time when sw first came out and everyone loved twc and hated guys like Bjorn. I also don't think good players have to play some of the new dexes to be as successful. They have many amazing tools in the new books and people lack of familiarity. It'll be interesting to see how gk and crons do after maybe 1-2 new books come out. We will see if they dip like sw did or if they stay fairly popular like orkz.

Draigo wrote:
The same could be said for any newer codex that has a huge influx of people wanting to try out the army for whatever their reason. Because I recall a time when sw first came out and everyone loved twc and hated guys like Bjorn. I also don't think good players have to play some of the new dexes to be as successful. They have many amazing tools in the new books and people lack of familiarity. It'll be interesting to see how gk and crons do after maybe 1-2 new books come out. We will see if they dip like sw did or if they stay fairly popular like orkz.

Right. I completely agree. It's called bandwagoning. But what makes the GK's even more pronounced than, say, the space wolves is because 1) its cheapness to build and paint, 2) it's eliteness (many people are attracted to the best-of-the-best uber armies), 3) the nice models (the "coolness" factor), 4) its powerful rules and 5) it's rather simple and forgiving play-style (even a basic GK army can shoot and fight in combat, whereas other armies need to be more specifically built for it). Plus, lack of TWC models made that SW army build not as prevalent in competitive play.

jy2 wrote:
But I am not at all surprised by the success of GK players at tournaments. That's because good players playing the knights are definitely very tough to play against. However, what you probably don't see on the surface is for every GK player that places, there are probably 3-5 GK players who don't do nearly as well. Whether they're new players or they're more into the hobby aspect as opposed to the competitive side or they've never really played against really good players....all these play a factor into why the majority of GK players don't do as well in tournament play in ratio to the number of GK players compared to other armies like, say, IG or space wolves.

You really haven't done anything but pat yourself on the back some more and point out the obvious. Yea, clearly any good general with their updated codex does well. And yes, clearly bad players play every new army as well. Look at the results for all armies, there are IG players that consistently score at the bottom in every tourny as well as ones at the top. Same if not worse for the wolves!

And "confidence" and cockiness are two different things. I think listing yourself amongst great players WITH records of results and wins is being cocky. Slapping around local casual players and playing competitive people are two totally different animals.

I must admit that there is a fine line between confidence and cockiness. However, what sets the two apart is how you express it and how you treat others. I am always respectful of my opponents and there are usually little tension in my games except for rules debates on occassions (but I believe that is normal).

And I was merely pointing out that while it may seem to some that IG are still dominating the competitive scene, the ratio of successful IG players over the total number of IG players is higher than the corresponding ratio of successful GK players over the total number of GK players, mainly due to the fact that there's a lot of bandwagoning with GK players who aren't really that good. In that sense, that is why IG players are having more "success" in tournaments than GK's currently.

Avariel wrote:@mercer
Nice report. Great to see detailed reports with lots of pictures.

Grey Knights seems to have an edge against Guard with fortitude keeping Grey Knights shooting and changing the shake/stun and move on to the next target strategy as well as Grey Knights having the advantage in the assault phase.

Guard has been out for a long time so you have people who been playing Guard for years and have that much experience and games behind them which can win out versus someone new to a codex without as much experience.

Personally I don't really like Guard as I prefer an army that competes in all phases. The common mech guard builds fail in the assault phase. You can take Straken or combined squads with power weapons in them but this is a fundamentally different list.

Grey Knights is such an army that competes in all phases. Has vehicles for good movement including fast skimmers. Shoots fairly well and assaults fairly well. Has good psyker powers although the librarian for defense is not always taken.

Thanks about the report.

I think you're right about G.K against Guard. While Guard have got serious killing power, they have to come into G.K firing range and fortitude really helps the G.K while shaken/stunned can easily stop Guard shooting or hold tanks back.

I've been playing Guard since the codex came out back in 2009, that's almost three years and my list has only changed from Leman Russes to Manticores. I think PJ has had as many games with his Guard as I have had with my Purifiers, he did enter them into a recent tournament and came mid card.

That's one problem of Guard, lack of assault, even with Straken they are not that awesome.