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I play Mech Guard [same as everyone else]. The thing is, I don't think I'm using them very effectively. I'm not sure what they ought to be doing. Perhaps I need to tweak my list.

Generally speaking I am running melta vets in Chimeras with Leman Russes [vanilla] as heavy support.

I have 5 Chimeras and 4 Russes available.

What ought to be my tactics with a mechanized Guard army?

Assistance and critiques welcome.

Thanks.

CoreyHaim8myDog wrote: [same as everyone else]

A lot more people play foot than you think.

Perhaps do you have a detailed battlereport or what your opponent lists look like? We can help you a bit more if we know such a thing.

My opponents are usually marines.

Blood Angels and Space Wolves.

Sometimes Tyranids.

The Blood Angels use a Storm Raven, Razorbacks, Rhino and a Predator. The Wolves use Rhinos mostly. Sometimes the Wolves have a Chaos army with them too as we play three man games semi-frequently.

The main problem with mech guard is that when a chimera blows up, your squad usually dies too. The other issue is that if you are using a Command Squad, you cannot issue orders to the troops in the other Chimeras.

I have run mech guard for a while, 6 chimeras, 8 differnt Leman Russ varients to chose from. I have not run a command squad for a long time. I prefer the Lord Commissar and/or Commissar Yarrick as my HQ selection. Melta vets/plasma vets in the chimeras. Use your smoke when you start, after you move those chimeras 12 inches.

So, move them double in turn 1? Then pop the smoke....

Do I want to move them the same the following turn?

I've just had my command squad fitted with Meltas or plasma until now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For those of you playing infantry, what does that play like?

How many figs do I need?

CoreyHaim8myDog wrote:
For those of you playing infantry, what does that play like?

How many figs do I need?

Depends. People tend to run gunlines as well as powerblobs, or even a mix of the two.

Gunlines do exactly what they sound like, they line up in deployment and try to blow the opponent off the board with superior firepower. Tons of HWS's, blobs with HWT's, CCS's to give orders to everything, and usually either lots of artillery or lots of tanks to back them up. Fun type of list to run, only problems are taking objectives and trying to cross the board to grab key points, since gunlines tend to be very immobile. Which is why they tend to be combined with "powerblobs".

Powerblobs take advantage of the fact that combined infantry squads are really tough to kill, and basically wear the enemy down through attrition. Everyone in a "Blob" that can take power weapons gets one (blobs are combined infantry squads, usually between 20-30, but its not unheard of to go up to 40 to 50 in a single blob) Once all your sarges and commissars have PW's (commissars are pretty much manditory, their stubborn ability is what makes them so tough) you then kit them out from there based on what you want them to do. Give them melta's and flamers, and you can just charge the enemy. Give them autocannons and melta, and they can pretend to be a gunline for the first couple of turns, until the enemy gets close, where you then charge in and kill everything in CC. That's usually what confuses people, because with powerblobs, you actually WANT to be in Close combat sometimes. Your guardsmen put down a ton of hits, and you'll wear the enemy down faster than he can kill off your guardsmen. You'll usually lose combat, but since your blob is LD9 and stubborn, they almost never run. And if they try to, you'll get a reroll (at the cost of a sargent, but its a small price to pay) If you're unsure about using them in force, try running just one with Al'Rahem, as his outflanking ability helps them get into position exactly where you need them.

They're both fun ways to play, but just keep in mind that you're going to need A LOT of guardsmen to run these kinds of lists. In a 1k list you can easily get almost a 100 guardsmen on the table, and thats with a fair amount of upgrades. However, throw in a leman russ or two, and you can easily get that down to a more manageable number like 60 or 70 . I've got a list I'm using right now that has roughly 50 guardsmen in 2 blobs, with 2 leman russes and a medusa as support, and I think it'll work well. Basically acts like a gunline turns 1 and 2, and then whats left of the 2 blobs charge foward across the board to kill whatever is left.

Like MrMoustaffa said, you will need a lot of guardsmen. I tend to run more of a gunline powerblob sort of thing. Like a half and half. One part of the army is heavy weapons squads (between 6 and 9 squads) and Leman Russ'. The other part is power blobs. They are a lot of fun. I would advise at least trying it out.

What I usually do with mech guard is throw lascannons in the vet squads and have them shoot with the Russ' for a turn or three, then move my chimera's up when the enemy armor is delt with. I almost always lose a chimera doing this, so the squad that's left behind is there to hold my objective in my deployment.

Doing this though, I do run into trouble with a force that deep strikes or outflanks large numbers of models.

So, one of the things to remember is that mechvets are a defensive weapon. They exist to react to things, not to be proactive (I've yet to see someone instigate a successful chimera highland charge). In order to make this kind of a defensive list, you need to have offensive power somewhere, or else the list kind of collapses in on itself (field position-wise), as your opponent takes the initiative.

The most common way to add offensive power to a mechvet list is with artillery in your HS slots, as they saturate with chimeras and give you immediate killing power against basically anywhere on the board. After this, you get things like hydras, for example. Russes generally are eschewed, as you gain durability through redundancy, making AV14 less required (and you get more offensive punch per point with non-russ options).

Have enough killing power to seriously disrupt your opponent's stuff in the first half of the game, and the vets can clean up anything else during the second half.

Ailaros wrote:The most common way to add offensive power to a mechvet list is with artillery in your HS slots, as they saturate with chimeras and give you immediate killing power against basically anywhere on the board. After this, you get things like hydras, for example. Russes generally are eschewed, as you gain durability through redundancy, making AV14 less required (and you get more offensive punch per point with non-russ options).

Have enough killing power to seriously disrupt your opponent's stuff in the first half of the game, and the vets can clean up anything else during the second half.

Right, I was more going off what the OP had, but essentially you want this.

The Manticore seems to be the most common/ most effective artillery piece. But I would also argue that you should invest in a vendetta or two.

MrMoustaffa wrote:

CoreyHaim8myDog wrote:

They're both fun ways to play, but just keep in mind that you're going to need A LOT of guardsmen to run these kinds of lists. In a 1k list you can easily get almost a 100 guardsmen on the table, and thats with a fair amount of upgrades. However, throw in a leman russ or two, and you can easily get that down to a more manageable number like 60 or 70 . I've got a list I'm using right now that has roughly 50 guardsmen in 2 blobs, with 2 leman russes and a medusa as support, and I think it'll work well. Basically acts like a gunline turns 1 and 2, and then whats left of the 2 blobs charge foward across the board to kill whatever is left.

Thanks. This is the best explanation of gunline and power blob I have seen. I've only run a 20-man blob, likely not big enough to do the job.

Right now I have about 80 guard, 50 of them painted. I have a bunch of credit coming from a games auction though....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ailaros wrote:So, one of the things to remember is that mechvets are a defensive weapon. They exist to react to things, not to be proactive (I've yet to see someone instigate a successful chimera highland charge). In order to make this kind of a defensive list, you need to have offensive power somewhere, or else the list kind of collapses in on itself (field position-wise), as your opponent takes the initiative.

The most common way to add offensive power to a mechvet list is with artillery in your HS slots, as they saturate with chimeras and give you immediate killing power against basically anywhere on the board. After this, you get things like hydras, for example. Russes generally are eschewed, as you gain durability through redundancy, making AV14 less required (and you get more offensive punch per point with non-russ options).

Have enough killing power to seriously disrupt your opponent's stuff in the first half of the game, and the vets can clean up anything else during the second half.

OK. I've been doing it wrong. I've no artillery. What would you recommend?

what support options you take depends on how you arm your vets, and how you want your army to play on the table. You don't NEED artillery, and you don't need a particular type of artillery piece. There is no one right way to construct a mech guard list.

Generally speaking, if you're going with lots of meltavets, you're going to want stuff to handle mid-range targets like AV11/12 spam, MC spam, FNP spam, terminators, etc. Usually people like things like hydras and executioners here. If you're going with plasma, then you need more heavy hitters like manticores, demolishers, or vendettas.

CoreyHaim8myDog wrote:

Thanks. This is the best explanation of gunline and power blob I have seen. I've only run a 20-man blob, likely not big enough to do the job.

Thanks, although I'm still learning the style myself. I just know what I know because I've been researching the heck out of it lately There are several other people on this board who know much more than I do, and they'll give you great advice.

You'd be surprised what a 20 man blob can do, if you get them in the right spot. I usually run a 20 with Al'Rahem, and if you run them right, they're plenty. Read up on "like the wind" by the way. It essentially lets you shoot, run, and assault, all on the turn you come in off the board edge. However, you want to make sure you only shoot assault weapons so you can assault same phase. I usually run the 20 man with meltas, so they can pop a transport, run D6 with the like the wind move, and then move another 6" to charge the squad that stumbled out. If you're really lucky, sometimes you'll wipe the unit, and then get to slingshot ANOTHER D6" foward. It takes some luck, but one game I played recently, saw my 20 man blob eat a 5 man tactical squad, and then slingshot halfway across the board. Thanks to some rediculous dice rolls (all the move rolls were at least 4" I think) that blob covered like 14" in one turn. The look on my opponents face was priceless...

Although to be honest, I think 30 seems to be the sweet spot. 20's are tough, but can still get worn down through concentrated fire, especially in the open. 30 gives you 24 ablative guardsmen (18 if you're running HWT's as well) as well as 4 hidden power weapons and 3 specials. Thats where they get truly tough, so I would recommend trying that size next. Any bigger just becomes a pain to move, as 40 to 50 guardsmen take up a rediculous amount of space (of course, this can be a good thing) Just remember that you combine the squads at deployment, so if you see that you're opponent is just going to focus down two smaller blobs in a platoon, you can combine them into a 50. You can also go the other route, and have your 30 man blob split into a 20 man and a 10 man group so it can grab objectives. Just remember that once the game actually starts, they're stuck that way.

20's are fine, though. Anything that you need more than a single 20-man blob to beat can be taken down by two 20-man blobs. With smaller blobs you have the flexibility to be able to apply a more exact amount of force. If you have two 30's, you can easily have one temporarily tarpitted while the other gets crushed, while with three 20's, you can apply just a 20 to the lesser important battle, and bring in the other 20 to bail out what would have been able to grind down a single 30, while the abblative wounds in the other 30 squad weren't doing much.

20's are not single-unit domination machines, though. They can and do get beaten in straight up fights on occasion, which means you need to be smarter. The 20's give you the flexibility to have your smartness matter, though, so I generally prefer it.

Plus, if you have a single platoon with two 20's, they can always blob up into a single 40 if they really need to, and I've never had a 40-man power blob wiped off the board before.

Your army list is fine.

Do you play chess? Mech guard is like chess.

The chimeras are your pawns. They roll up 6" every turn and create a wall that blocks movement and a melta kill zone that nobody will want to go into. Like the pawn structure in chess, they allow you to hold parts of the board.

Your heavy/fast slot units are the knights, bishops, queen and rooks. They do the actual killing.

More specifically, against the opponents you've listed, you want to move your chimeras in a wall to within melta range of the rhinos (and remember, against rhinos and storm ravens, melta range is 12", NOT 6") and destroy the transport. Then you want your battlecannons in the rear to lob shells at the guys who drop out into the crater.

Never get out of your chimera voluntarily. If you go 12" and disembark to shoot, you've overextended and just sacrificed that disembarked unit. It's better to go 6" and wait another turn to get in range.

If your opponent is deepstriking or rushing at you, castle up in a corner or in dual castles--each with half your army--in two corners, and kill him as he comes in.

If your opponent gives you second turn, you also have the option of starting your whole army in reserve. Somebody is going to come on this thread and say "But then you're only fighting with half your force!" which is technically correct, but isn't actually an issue for a mobile, mechanized army.

For more information on deployment, search "spacecurves deployment" and check out his articles on Bell of Lost Souls.

For more information on running a mech army and reserving, read Fritz's articles on saimhann.blogspot.com

If you're going to add something to your list, make it something that can kill rhinos/stormravens at a distance, because that will fit into your list better. Vendettas or armored sentinels with autocannons in the fast slots (since your heavy slots are full of russes) or units of 5 deepstriking stormtroopers with melta are good choices.

I'll just add my personal flavors to this thread:

I started out with just chimeras and russes. (4 chimeras and 2 russes) and suffered a bit from indecision as well. Eventually via proxy and what not, I've filled in a bit more of other slots to give me alot of tactical flexibility.

Added a hydra, great idea, somewhat of a cheap fire magnet in a wierd way. People seem to really hate it even when they aren't running many fliers or av13 fast skimmers that are lousy targets for this thing. When it does survive, it's great vs rhinos and eldar vehicles (both dark and normal ones) Good vs av11. decent vs av12. Also decent vs infantry with a heavy bolter. You tend not to move it so might as well dump more shots

Added a vendetta. Love this thing. Flat out saves, big fire magent, makes me wish I owned 2 of them. I don't have enough points at 1500 to put troops in it but it's still great to threaten enemy backfield. I tend to use it in reserve outflank if going 2nd, and just focus on back field armor via scout move if going first. Also decently tough with AV12. best record so far, survived 30 gauss blasters (thank you extra armor built in!) killed a monolith with a roll of 4, then 6, then 5. wooot. Plenty of games where it wiffed like every lascannon hits too but meh >.<

Added a psyker squad in yet another chimera. More Av12 is always good, also great abilities vs eveyrthing just about (less effective vs space marines though). More blast templates, but really useful is the reduced leadership ability. So many times this has saved my butt. Run necrons run! wmahahaha no RP for you! Got lucky a few times and templated blobs of marines with an Ap 1-2 hit. Best game was taking a wound off mepheston (out of hood range), and killed over half a blood angel jump pack assault squad with their priest. Worst game was doing nothing due to shadow in the warp vs nids and just kept periling myself vs eldar. I tend to put the chimera with ML and flamer since they are effective mobile. Used to work riding in a vendetta but they FAQ'ed the ability away while inside so not as effective

Took out the LR sponsons, took me a while to realize I wasn't using them as I'm moving around alot with my vehicles to get proper shots. The savings in points ended up with me getting some plasma vets with lascannons.

Added said plasma vets with lascannons in more chimeras lol. I like them for the tactical flexibility vs marines and things that want to charge my lines. Due to the extended range of the plasma (single shots at 24') I tend to not move them much as most things get in range pretty fast. Their chimera has ML + HB as they tend to stop and hold objectves further back and doesnt move much. Sitting still lets me shoot the las cannon for more AP2 and range vs other transports. Also, it's a BS4 lascannon so I tend to do well with it. Can threaten AV 13-14 as well. (I'm looking at your annhiliation barge/doomsday ark/predators/exorcists). Best game was melted mepheston in one turn with las cannon and 6 plasma gun hits. (one got hot but I survived the armor). Also mented a hive tyrant with similar rolling. The ML and HB also contributed a wound which offset a wound that missed invul. Also plasma gunned down a night scythe (it's str 7! still can shoot at vehicles too). I also liked that the lascannon has 2 wounds and you one less dice for tank explosions. Always throw wounds on the lascannon team after you get out as you'll probably be moving and can't fire anymore but more than worth the points.

changed to a techpriest and servitors as my HQ for auto fix. and got rid of my command squad. Was a mix bag. It worked in one game but failed in like 5 others doing nothing. Ate a template as he's not in a vehicle, tried just having him in the empty vendetta but was too far away to help any tanks. Now back to the command squad but I make sure they are in a tank always now. More BS 4 plasma/melta/lascannon is how I think of them. Also occassionally useful for "get back in the fight" when I end up going to ground on any dismounted infantry or to save a kill point from running off the board.

Experimented with ratlings with mixed results. Good with psykers but was pretty ineffective as I kept geting dawn of war when I used them. 3 times in a row now! More to come =)

I'd advise adding a few Valkyries/Vendettas for mobility and additional firepower; the ability to get off S9 shots against enemy vehicles' side armor is not to be underestimated.