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Been playing a bit of Dawn of War recently and got a bit interested in the blood ravens. Now I (probably wrongly) just assumed that they were a successor chapter of the blood angels because of the blood theme. However when I came to upgrade the commander in campaign he had the option of a power mace (Dorn's something or other) and that they did not seem to suffer the red thrst or black rage lead me to think that they seem to be a successor of the Imperials fists whose primach is Rogal Dorn. On further investigation, lexicanum and warhammer 40k wiki both said that the primogenitor chapter was unknown along with when they were founded and their original primarch, so my question is does anyone know anything else? Is the Dorn thing important or irrelevant?


Also is Dawn of War two worth a buy? :L

The Blood Angels seem to take after the Thousand Sons more than any other chapter/legion, so...

And Dawn of War 2 is far better than Dawn of War 1.

Interesting...


How does it differ/

The thread is about Blood Ravens, but your posts say Blood Angels. In any case, four theories: Thousand Sons (because of strong psychic abilities of Chapter Librarians, similiar combat doctrines and Chapter tradition, and the fact that the Fourth Fellowship remained loyal and it's survivors vowed to fight the causes of their Legion's destruction), Blood Angels (Chapter colors, and Primarch Sanguinius' own potent psychic powers), Imperial Fists (Blood Ravens are very stubborn), Sons of Horus (Abaddon has an unusual interest in them, more so than you would expect from him considering the Blood Ravens are not supposed to be a Second Founding Chapter).

I don't think are a successor chapter of any of the FF. It never says anywhere or provides enough clues probably because GW doesn't feel like elaborating on them at all.

Basically, pick one.

Unfortunately, most of the others don't fit the gene-seed profile or the Chapter profile.

The 5th and least likely option.is Raven Guard through name only.

Unlikely...the Raven Guard gene-seed causes Astartes to have pure white skin and pure black hair.

Again most unlikely and the only connection.is names. I am just a messenger for online banter.

Tadashi wrote:The thread is about Blood Ravens, but your posts say Blood Angels. In any case, four theories: Thousand Sons (because of strong psychic abilities of Chapter Librarians, similiar combat doctrines and Chapter tradition, and the fact that the Fourth Fellowship remained loyal and it's survivors vowed to fight the causes of their Legion's destruction), Blood Angels (Chapter colors, and Primarch Sanguinius' own potent psychic powers), Imperial Fists (Blood Ravens are very stubborn), Sons of Horus (Abaddon has an unusual interest in them, more so than you would expect from him considering the Blood Ravens are not supposed to be a Second Founding Chapter).

You missed some for the Thousand Sons (and I think you wrongly attributed one of them to the Sons of Horus). AHRIMAN takes an unusual interest in the Blood Raven, NOT Abaddon. Also, the book A Thousand Sons is filled with prophecy pointing towards the blood ravens.

I vote Thousand Sons... also, the color scheme is similar to their pre-Heresy scheme (Blood Angels are of a much brighter red than Blood Ravens).

The most likely would be Thousand Sons and Blood Angels. As for the red thirst and the blood rage, maybe Sanguinius' psychic potential neutralized them (Sangiunius could see the future - along with Magnus he was a powerful psyker).

Talon31 wrote:Interesting...


How does it differ/

It's smaller scale, much more tactical, and much less spammy. There's also more to do with special abilities and hard counter units.

The Blood Ravens are rumored to be a Thousand Sons successor, or a loyalist remnant of the legion. Who could hide their origin better than Tzeentch? Also, they get namedropped in A Thousand Sons as I recall, during a mad vision of either Ahriman or Magnus the Red. Something about "Ravens of Blood" during a vision of the future. There are also other hints, in both their color scheme's similarities to pre-Heresy Thousand Sons, the prevalence of psykers in their ranks, and their mysterious past.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The thread is about Blood Ravens, but your posts say Blood Angels. In any case, four theories: Thousand Sons (because of strong psychic abilities of Chapter Librarians, similiar combat doctrines and Chapter tradition, and the fact that the Fourth Fellowship remained loyal and it's survivors vowed to fight the causes of their Legion's destruction), Blood Angels (Chapter colors, and Primarch Sanguinius' own potent psychic powers), Imperial Fists (Blood Ravens are very stubborn), Sons of Horus (Abaddon has an unusual interest in them, more so than you would expect from him considering the Blood Ravens are not supposed to be a Second Founding Chapter).

You missed some for the Thousand Sons (and I think you wrongly attributed one of them to the Sons of Horus). AHRIMAN takes an unusual interest in the Blood Raven, NOT Abaddon. Also, the book A Thousand Sons is filled with prophecy pointing towards the blood ravens.

I vote Thousand Sons.

Warmaster Abaddon has an interest in the Blood Ravens in the games (which have been declared canon for the Blood Ravens, since they were adopted for the video game primarily). Granted it's probably because of Kyras, but I would agree (and want) for the Blood Ravens to be actual Thousand Sons walking around with a different name. It's not just A Thousand Sons, Rebirth from Age of Darkness also features the Fourth Fellowship - Arvida there renounces Magnus and vows to fight the true cause of his Legion's destruction, while Kalliston is glad at the end not to have been given the chance to join the traitors, seeing in Kharn's insanity the ultimate fate of the Traitor Legions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Brother SRM wrote:

Talon31 wrote:Interesting...


How does it differ/

It's smaller scale, much more tactical, and much less spammy. There's also more to do with special abilities and hard counter units.

The Blood Ravens are rumored to be a Thousand Sons successor, or a loyalist remnant of the legion. Who could hide their origin better than Tzeentch? Also, they get namedropped in A Thousand Sons as I recall, during a mad vision of either Ahriman or Magnus the Red. Something about "Ravens of Blood" during a vision of the future. There are also other hints, in both their color scheme's similarities to pre-Heresy Thousand Sons, the prevalence of psykers in their ranks, and their mysterious past.

Specifically, a Remembrancer named Kallista Eris and Ahriman. And not Tzeentch. Probably the inner circle of the Ord Malleus and the Emperor are the ones hiding their origins. The Supreme Council of the Mechanicum of Mars are probably involved, hiding the true results of Blood Raven gene testing.

The Blood Ravens do not suffer from the fleshchange and they do not have any inate psychic abilities like the 1k sons apparently had.
The relatively high amount of psykers within the chapter isn't unusual, the Silverskulls and Howling Gryphons have that too.
In fact their entire knowledge is power/ psyker tendencies might have more to do with Azariah Vidya and less with any genetic traits.

While Black Library once again shines with it's all too often demonstrated inability of leaving a good story alone, Relic has so far left the origin of the chapter open for speculation.

KingDeath wrote:The Blood Ravens do not suffer from the fleshchange and they do not have any inate psychic abilities like the 1k sons apparently had.
The relatively high amount of psykers within the chapter isn't unusual, the Silverskulls and Howling Gryphons have that too.
In fact their entire knowledge is power/ psyker tendencies might have more to do with Azariah Vidya and less with any genetic traits.

While Black Library once again shines with it's all too often demonstrated inability of leaving a good story alone, Relic has so far left the origin of the chapter open for speculation.

Problem is, that the Horus Heresy novels have already been declared canon, with A Thousand Sons and Rebirth, odds are sooner (or not) the Thousand Sons may actually be the originators of the Blood Ravens.

And the Thousand Sons played wih sorcery and psychic powers without taking precautions, that's probably the cause of the flesh-change. And not all Thousand Sons were psykers. That would contradict Codex: Chaos Space Marines; Horus Heresy novels are canon, except where the contradict the codices, which are the ultimate canon.

cant be blood agnels. It says in the codex that they are not.

Huh, I thought this mystery was cleared up ages ago.

wpago wrote:cant be blood agnels. It says in the codex that they are not.

Then they are not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Huh, I thought this mystery was cleared up ages ago.

Ha, ha, we are all amused.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Huh, I thought this mystery was cleared up ages ago.

Hehe, that would actualy be an improvement over most BL fluff...

I think 1kS is right out, since the Chapter Master of the Blood Ravens is...

Psienesis wrote:I think 1kS is right out, since the Chapter Master of the Blood Ravens is...

Spoiler:

A Khornate Sorcerer, somehow, beyond all logical reason but, hey, Chaos! works, I guess...

Not really...think about it this way. Kyras was first touched by Chaos thanks to a Greater Daemon of Nurgle, the arch-nemesis of the Thousand Sons patron. Assuming that Blood Ravens are Thousand Sons, that daemon reveals to Kyras that his Chapter is descended from, or were deliberately forgotten, from the Thousand Sons. He's shocked and angry, and the daemon takes advantage of that (probably why higher-up Imperial authorities keep it quiet, among other reasons). Later on, the Khornate daemon Angelos releases from the Maledictum completes Kyras' fall to Chaos by giving him a chance to 'redeem his honor'. Of course, by that point, Chaos-touched Kyras can't realize that he's doing what Magnus the Red and most of the Thousand Sons did on Prospero, and what the loyalists wanted to avoid by forgetting tehir own past.

Why would the Fat Guy not take dude over at any point living under the Chapter base? This Tzeentch-> Nurgle -> Khorne circle is just... stretching the limits of credibility a bit.

Psienesis wrote:Why would the Fat Guy not take dude over at any point living under the Chapter base? This Tzeentch-> Nurgle -> Khorne circle is just... stretching the limits of credibility a bit.

Probably because the daemon tainted Kyras, just not enough to corrupt him fully. It was only when the Khornate daemon offerred Kyras something did he fall. Probably the story behind the Blood Ravens is that they (the loyalist Sons) forgot everything so they and their descendants could never (as much as possible) choose to serve Chaos. The Sons on Prospero chose Chaos when they decided not to be taken into custody. The Fourth Fellowship was never made to choose, so when they learned the truth, they probably decided to give up their heritage to escape Tzeentch. I suppose that's a fair price - to break free from Magnus' deal wih Tzeentch, they couldn't use their Primarch's legacy to the full, and they would forget who they were originally.

Psienesis wrote:I think 1kS is right out, since the Chapter Master of the Blood Ravens is...

Spoiler:

A Khornate Sorcerer, somehow, beyond all logical reason but, hey, Chaos! works, I guess...

Before the current 3.5 and 4.0 Dexes, khornate sorcerers did actually happen. However as they worshipped khorne more and more, they eventually lost the power to manifest their own abilities, instead their powers channeled through their bodies, making them far more powerful and generally more physically like a beast.

However Kyras never got to that point, what with making one hell of an offering that got him promoted to Daemonprince. Which shows no capacity for using psyker abilities at all, so it's likely he lost them upon his ascension to Khornate Daemon prince. So it still works out to how Khorne works.

KingDeath wrote:While Black Library once again shines with it's all too often demonstrated inability of leaving a good story alone, Relic has so far left the origin of the chapter open for speculation.

Right because it's only a good story when it's left ambiguous?

ifStatement wrote:

KingDeath wrote:While Black Library once again shines with it's all too often demonstrated inability of leaving a good story alone, Relic has so far left the origin of the chapter open for speculation.

Right because it's only a good story when it's left ambiguous?

No, because the entire loyalist traitors stick is so used and old that even the Necrontyr would consider it to be utterly trite.

KingDeath wrote:

ifStatement wrote:

KingDeath wrote:While Black Library once again shines with it's all too often demonstrated inability of leaving a good story alone, Relic has so far left the origin of the chapter open for speculation.

Right because it's only a good story when it's left ambiguous?

No, because the entire loyalist traitors stick is so used and old that even the Necrontyr would consider it to be utterly trite.

But the idea is so badass that it gets used so often. You may consider it old, but not everyone shares that opinion.

KingDeath wrote:

ifStatement wrote:

KingDeath wrote:While Black Library once again shines with it's all too often demonstrated inability of leaving a good story alone, Relic has so far left the origin of the chapter open for speculation.

Right because it's only a good story when it's left ambiguous?

No, because the entire loyalist traitors stick is so used and old that even the Necrontyr would consider it to be utterly trite.

If that's your problem how did you find the story good in the first place. Everything pointed towards them being the descendants of traitors before BL pretty much said it in A Thousand Sons.

ifStatement wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

ifStatement wrote:

KingDeath wrote:While Black Library once again shines with it's all too often demonstrated inability of leaving a good story alone, Relic has so far left the origin of the chapter open for speculation.

Right because it's only a good story when it's left ambiguous?

No, because the entire loyalist traitors stick is so used and old that even the Necrontyr would consider it to be utterly trite.

If that's your problem how did you find the story good in the first place. Everything pointed towards them being the descendants of traitors before BL pretty much said it in A Thousand Sons.

No it didn't. The idea comes from Goto who isn't even referenced once in the DoW games. All the DoW games tell us is that the chapter has a bunch of rather nasty secrets which might or might not
be connected to their unknown primarch. A Thousand Sons did, with the exception of the Corvidae name, nothing to change that status.

KingDeath wrote:

ifStatement wrote:

KingDeath wrote:

ifStatement wrote:

KingDeath wrote:While Black Library once again shines with it's all too often demonstrated inability of leaving a good story alone, Relic has so far left the origin of the chapter open for speculation.

Right because it's only a good story when it's left ambiguous?

No, because the entire loyalist traitors stick is so used and old that even the Necrontyr would consider it to be utterly trite.

If that's your problem how did you find the story good in the first place. Everything pointed towards them being the descendants of traitors before BL pretty much said it in A Thousand Sons.

No it didn't. The idea comes from Goto who isn't even referenced once in the DoW games. All the DoW games tell us is that the chapter has a bunch of rather nasty secrets which might or might not
be connected to their unknown primarch. A Thousand Sons did, with the exception of the Corvidae name, nothing to change that status.

No there are plenty of references in the games to the dark secret concerning the chapters founding which would destroy the chapter if it became known. That points towards them being the descendants of traitors in my eyes.