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I have noticed recently an upswing in the number of posters on Dakka where people disagree and it escalates instantly to the T-Word.....

Yes, you guessed it "TROLL" or should we institute another term like the "T-Word", people seem to be dropping alot of T-Bombs all over the forums. It seems a lot of posters seems to view it as some coverall "I win" comment. It seems to bear no resemblance to what it originally meant and now seems to even applied by others to those who are merely playing "Devils Advocate" or trying to be objective.

It's like a verbal Arms race where the equivalent of a Nuclear Weapon is the T-word. We get crazy situations where posters go for pre-emptive T-word to stop other poster doing the same. Equally the term "Flaming" (F-Word ) is just as misconstrued and used inappropriately. Is this a recent phenomenon, or is the term Troll en vogue? Or is it people flouting their supposed knowledge of internet terminology to look cool and be part of the tribe? I see it commonly on Youtube, deliberately nasty and vindictive posts that are purile and offensive, I would say they are trolling looking for a response in kind. Yet it's very rare on these forums, but a large number of people are accused of doing it on a weekly basis.

To me it seems faintly ridiculous, to come on here to debate things if you are not interested in debating or making counter points to others reasoning. I know I might be naive in saying this, but wouldn't it be a pleasant change if people could objectively debate without instantly degenerating to the T-Word or F-Word.

I have seen some good debates, that almost derailed and then the escalators drew back and apologized to each other without a MOD getting involved. Bravo. It's rare but it does happen...

Stop trolling!

J/k

i think it has to do with the fact that civil discourse is not something people are used to in general social settings anymore. PLus... we're gamers... do you think gamers have the social where-with-all to deal with situations where they have to see the other persons view?

You would have thought the fact that all our games are played socially between a minimum of 2 players on opposing sides, the fact we are generally more intelligent that most of society and above all we play for fun. Everything we do is agreed with the opposing player and we agree to abide by a common set of rules, and know it is decided by chance, I would have thought we would be much better at seeing the opposite side/point of view of this than most of society? Funny thing when you analyse it.

mwnciboo wrote:the fact we are generally more intelligent that most of society

I like to see you prove that... troll

I've never once in a debate called another poster a T-bomb, I've been called one loads of times though.

I don't call my detractors it because I want the debate to continue and I dont open my mouth unless ive got a fair case to make, so I'm of the opinion that a good reason the word gets used is because the person that flings the word hopes that a Mod will see it and ban the other user or lock the thread.

Probably a smart thing to do if your argument is piss weak and you fear "losing" the remonstration in question.

Because it is fun!

Plus, on the internet, you don't have to deal with the consequences, so you can be as intolerant as you want!

There's a few discussions kicking off that seem to generate polar opposites of standpoint. Finecast is a good example. GW's pricing another doozy. The Warmachine/Hordes vs Warhammer / 40k area is another. Hell, Apple vs Microsoft (as I think Mattyrm pointed out somewhere). Anywhere where an 'us and them' dichotomy can be set up, you'll get arguments flare up simply because of the dichotomy. A 'We don't like them because they open their eggs at the narrow end' situation. Neither side needs to be particularly 'in the right', or have any point that can be successfully argued.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

mattyrm wrote:I've never once in a debate called another poster a T-bomb, I've been called one loads of times though.

I don't call my detractors it because I want the debate to continue and I dont open my mouth unless ive got a fair case to make, so I'm of the opinion that a good reason the word gets used is because the person that flings the word hopes that a Mod will see it and ban the other user or lock the thread.

Probably a smart thing to do if your argument is piss weak and you fear "losing" the remonstration in question.

Well, for my part, I wouldn't call on a mod to get rid of someone I disagree with or who disagrees with me. I'd rather argue my own points, and refute ones I disagree with where possible. That said, if someone's posting pointlessly in an effort to incite being called a troll, then occasionally, if already annoyed, I may rise to it. That said, there is a difference between taking the piss because you find it amusing (if provocative) and actually fully forcing forward the repetition as truth thing, in the same way as there's a difference between casual swearing and offensiveness.

I'd only say it if I genuinely meant it, as otherwise it'll water-down the word into insignificance, and crying wolf.

Easy E wrote:Because it is fun!

Plus, on the internet, you don't have to deal with the consequences, so you can be as intolerant as you want!

I had to double check to see who posted the above quote. frankly it could have come from about four or five regular Off-topic posters and most of them wouldnt have meant it as a joke...

Easy E wrote:

I hear internet trolls take offense to this pic

mwnciboo wrote:I have noticed recently an upswing in the number of posters on Dakka where people disagree and it escalates instantly to the T-Word.....

Yes, you guessed it "TROLL" or should we institute another term like the "T-Word", people seem to be dropping alot of T-Bombs all over the forums. It seems a lot of posters seems to view it as some coverall "I win" comment. It seems to bear no resemblance to what it originally meant and now seems to even applied by others to those who are merely playing "Devils Advocate" or trying to be objective.

It's like a verbal Arms race where the equivalent of a Nuclear Weapon is the T-word. We get crazy situations where posters go for pre-emptive T-word to stop other poster doing the same. Equally the term "Flaming" (F-Word ) is just as misconstrued and used inappropriately. Is this a recent phenomenon, or is the term Troll en vogue? Or is it people flouting their supposed knowledge of internet terminology to look cool and be part of the tribe? I see it commonly on Youtube, deliberately nasty and vindictive posts that are purile and offensive, I would say they are trolling looking for a response in kind. Yet it's very rare on these forums, but a large number of people are accused of doing it on a weekly basis.

To me it seems faintly ridiculous, to come on here to debate things if you are not interested in debating or making counter points to others reasoning. I know I might be naive in saying this, but wouldn't it be a pleasant change if people could objectively debate without instantly degenerating to the T-Word or F-Word.

I have seen some good debates, that almost derailed and then the escalators drew back and apologized to each other without a MOD getting involved. Bravo. It's rare but it does happen...

Thats nothing. When in doubt I reach for a full auto wiener dog. peace through superior firepower.

Frazzled wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:I have noticed recently an upswing in the number of posters on Dakka where people disagree and it escalates instantly to the T-Word.....

Yes, you guessed it "TROLL" or should we institute another term like the "T-Word", people seem to be dropping alot of T-Bombs all over the forums. It seems a lot of posters seems to view it as some coverall "I win" comment. It seems to bear no resemblance to what it originally meant and now seems to even applied by others to those who are merely playing "Devils Advocate" or trying to be objective.

It's like a verbal Arms race where the equivalent of a Nuclear Weapon is the T-word. We get crazy situations where posters go for pre-emptive T-word to stop other poster doing the same. Equally the term "Flaming" (F-Word ) is just as misconstrued and used inappropriately. Is this a recent phenomenon, or is the term Troll en vogue? Or is it people flouting their supposed knowledge of internet terminology to look cool and be part of the tribe? I see it commonly on Youtube, deliberately nasty and vindictive posts that are purile and offensive, I would say they are trolling looking for a response in kind. Yet it's very rare on these forums, but a large number of people are accused of doing it on a weekly basis.

To me it seems faintly ridiculous, to come on here to debate things if you are not interested in debating or making counter points to others reasoning. I know I might be naive in saying this, but wouldn't it be a pleasant change if people could objectively debate without instantly degenerating to the T-Word or F-Word.

I have seen some good debates, that almost derailed and then the escalators drew back and apologized to each other without a MOD getting involved. Bravo. It's rare but it does happen...

Thats nothing. When in doubt I reach for a full auto wiener dog. peace through superior firepower.

Be like Frazzled: reach for a wiener

Catchy. We should get that put on a t-shirt

I think T-bombing is going into my personal dictionary. I'm going to use that whenever I come across indiscriminate use of the word.

@SDFarsight. Nice Avatar, not seen a Tacoma from Ghost in the Shell for a while.

I recently asked someone to clarify a statement in the Santorum thread and he became unhinged and started calling me a Christofacist, whatever that is.
Some people just take things the wrong way for whatever reason, insecurity, inferiority complex, or just mad that someone disagrees with them. They then respond with insults and personal attacks.

"Trolling" used to be an art. It required careful planning, a sense of humor, and a delicate touch. People who understood it was a troll weren't upset or offended. They would just laugh and play along.

Then, AOL happened and the 1337 kiddies got online. Trolling suddenly was too easy and resulted in ridiculous flamewars. It lost its connotation of the artful prankster and devolved into meaning "someone that intentionally just stirs up trouble by claiming to hold ridiculous positions".

As the years have gone by, "trolls" stopped meaning someone that intentionally caused trouble, and just meant someone that caused trouble, even if they sincerely hold on to those beliefs.

Lately, that's even devolved to the point where "troll" simply means "someone who disagrees with me and won't change their mind no matter how many capital letters I use and names I call them".

I expect in the next 5-6 years, troll will simply mean "someone who disagrees with me, even if its a perfectly reasonable and rational belief".

Then again, the internet allows people to talk in a bit more aggresive fashion than they would face to face.

mwnciboo wrote:
@SDFarsight. Nice Avatar, not seen a Tacoma from Ghost in the Shell for a while.

Thanks. It's one of the few anime series I've really got into.

mwnciboo wrote:
To me it seems faintly ridiculous, to come on here to debate things if you are not interested in debating or making counter points to others reasoning. I know I might be naive in saying this, but wouldn't it be a pleasant change if people could objectively debate without instantly degenerating to the T-Word or F-Word.

As someone who debates a lot, no one does it objectively. Some of us are better at removing the self than others, but that's all it is; "better".

"Troll" is a useful tag to apply to someone that makes ridiculous arguments in certain circumstances, but should generally be avoided.

Grakmar wrote:"Trolling" used to be a art.

How could I resist that?

Maybe we should come up with a new word for Trolls that aren't doing it right?

Possibly the lesser title of Shat Goblin?

dogma wrote:

mwnciboo wrote:
To me it seems faintly ridiculous, to come on here to debate things if you are not interested in debating or making counter points to others reasoning. I know I might be naive in saying this, but wouldn't it be a pleasant change if people could objectively debate without instantly degenerating to the T-Word or F-Word.

As someone who debates a lot, no one does it objectively. Some of us are better at removing the self than others, but that's all it is; "better".

"Troll" is a useful tag to apply to someone that makes ridiculous arguments in certain circumstances, but should generally be avoided.

Maybe so, but I'm of the opinion that many people use it just on counter arguments. The Finecast posts recently have generated an awful lot of this kind of content, the same with pricing policy. Then when you post up the current GW Shareprice and links to it's annual report to support your positon you are either called "T-Word" or a GW lover.

You can debate objectively, to do so you must know and acknowledge the weaknesses in your own reasoning and position. It's this self awareness that allows you to create a better, more cohesive and thereby convincing argument? Is debate also an opportunity to study the mental agility, calibre and intellectual integrity of your opponent, I have never lacked the personal courage to honestly say "I see your point and evidence, I was wrong despite the evidence for my case, i thank you for enlightening me." As a Scientist I believe this position is best, otherwise progress would never be made? Scientific theory would never change, it would be static, never to evolve, or to refine and eventually die (not unlike the Imperium in 40k ).

This seemed appropriate

Shat Goblin is an excellent term /sg/ . Right, we need to form a Shat Goblin appreciation society. Thats going into my signature, I feel an article coming on...

EDIT - Yeah we need a Logo....

mwnciboo wrote:Shat Goblin is an excellent term /sg/ . Right, we need to form a Shat Goblin appreciation society. Thats going into my signature, I feel an article coming on...

I can't wait to see the logo.

mwnciboo wrote:
You can debate objectively, to do so you must know and acknowledge the weaknesses in your own reasoning and position. It's this self awareness that allows you to create a better, more cohesive and thereby convincing argument? Is debate also an opportunity to study the mental agility, calibre and intellectual integrity of your opponent, I have never lacked the personal courage to honestly say "I see your point and evidence, I was wrong despite the evidence for my case, i thank you for enlightening me." As a Scientist I believe this position is best, otherwise progress would never be made? Scientific theory would never change, it would be static, never to evolve, or to refine and eventually die (not unlike the Imperium in 40k ).

Well, what is right tends to win out, regardless of whether or not you convince those people that believe otherwise, but that's beside the point.

Objective debate is impossible because, ultimately, we all commit to certain ideas that we believe are correct. Some of us, for example me, commit to abstract concept like formal logic in an effort to avoid investing in any practical position, but that commitment doesn't make my position, or argument, objective.

That would be an interesting Premise, if you could completely divide yourself from your own feelings and inclinations. We are programmed from birth consciously and sub-consciously to believe certain things. Is the truth fundamentally that because we are sentient we can never truly be objective?

Because people don't really know what a Troll is and just use it, kinda like 'over 9000' or 'leeroy jenkins' or 'all your base are belong to us' ( my personal fav and yeah im going to make it come back it's so old its retro =o] )

And now you know and knowing is half the battle-- GI JOE!!!

I personally don't like the term 'troll' at all, clearly there are people who post things on the internet to wind others up, gain some kind of reaction.
Also another thing I don't like, is when people try and judge your mood, just because you post a negative reaction does not mean your angry or upset, personally I manage to stay pretty calm when reading anything, even if its something I really disagree with. The only thing that does annoy me, is when someone starts judging you or your mood, based on some text, its just not accurate enough.

But 'Trolling', I think is just a way for immature people (mostly Children you would hope) to let off some steam on the internet, its not as easy to 'troll' in real life is it?

Okay here we go....

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Shat_Goblin

Edit as you see fit, will bring a nice rye smile to see if this appears in any threads over the next few months. Now I need a Logo. Any suggestions, input or submissions would be welcome.

EDIT 1st stab

If shat goblin becomes a regular dakka term thanks to your article I will chuckle heartily. If not, I shall use it anyway.

I'm not sure what the logo should be. Maybe a small goblin creature squatting and pointing as it smiles gingerly?

Relapse wrote:I recently asked someone to clarify a statement in the Santorum thread and he became unhinged and started calling me a Christofacist, whatever that is.

Fascist. . . fascist. . . . fascist. . . . . I know I've heard that somewhere. . . . . . AHA! Blame the victim!