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Another army list set from me again >.< Currently trying to work out what I want in regards to WHFB, its come to be that Skaven while I love them, are too much of a burdan to paint a full army, I think when I came to put them on Ebay I got a miniature count of 260 Clanrats/Slaves alone, not including special choices and etc... So here I'm looking for something considerably smaller'ish.

Okay, some things I want to get from this list atm generally is something competitive to a certain extent and something I can have fun painting, customizing and etc. For that Theres already a few 'must haves' in my army already!

The first being that, I want it to be a themed army list, based on Tzeentch and will include this model as my lord choice.
I'm lucky enough to have gotten this ltd edition miniature in a 28mm heroic scale to use as my sorceress Lord.

The next thing thats a must to be included, on an army list side of things, preferably 3 Dragon Ogres. The reason behind this is that I wan't Minotaur's, the closest thing in this army book for them are the Dragon Ogres. I love the Doombull model and would be customizing 3 of them to make this 1 grouping of 3.

Another thing, which isn't utterly required but would be most enjoyable to have is Forsaken. I'm not sure what the general consensus is on those but It would allow me to use Bestigors in there place, customized ones of course.

Lastly of course is warhounds, more then likely I'll be using only 10'ish tops using these models
The idea behind this is that all the metal / plate sections will be all inscribed with runes and magical scribblings etc to make them more magic/runic and chaos'y.

--------------------------------

With all that in mind I find myself really needing help to make a list that has me feeling comfortable.

And have a few questions
What is the average model count of a Chaos army?
What size units are optimal for warriors / pts?
Does chaos benifet from a BSB enough to spend 135pts minimum on one with no ward save?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Aaaanyone xD

Sasa0mg wrote:The first being that, I want it to be a themed army list, based on Tzeentch ...

Luckily for you All Tizz is also quite strong

... this ltd edition miniature in a 28mm heroic scale to use as my sorceress Lord.

Lovely model, and good unit choice. One sorcerer(ess) lord w/ MoT, level 4, charmed shield, talisman of endurance or preservation to start things off. (Top Tip: build her with the shield, but if you're sticking with the book then we can forgo the shield, though it is legit.)

The next thing thats a must to be included, on an army list side of things, preferably 3 Dragon Ogres. The reason behind this is that I wan't Minotaur's, the closest thing in this army book for them are the Dragon Ogres. I love the Doombull model and would be customizing 3 of them to make this 1 grouping of 3.

I ... disagree on this counts as, I would think that ogres with the mark of khorne are much closer to minotaurs than drogres are - frenzied, monstrous infantry, etc. The S5 of the DO is maybe the only place they match better than ogres, but I'm guessing you're going with great weapons anyway? Regardless, you are going to want far more than three of either, especially if using great weapons. I'd say 6-8 is required for an effective MI unit.

Another thing, which isn't utterly required but would be most enjoyable to have is Forsaken. I'm not sure what the general consensus is on those but It would allow me to use Bestigors in there place, customized ones of course.

Forsaken are very very bad right now. I consider myself extremely open minded when it comes to running weak units, but forsaken really have next to no redeeming value. When they become skirmishers in the new book (like they should always have been ) then we might have something. For now, if you want bestigors I'd use them as great weapon warriors (I've in fact done just this!)

Lastly of course is warhounds, more then likely I'll be using only 10'ish tops using these models ...

You know what warhounds are, right? 5 point models that fit on cavalry bases and are meant to die horribly? I'm guessing these cyberwolves are quite large, and in fact if you want to use them then they'd make pretty impressive dragon ogres (with one or two hand weapons depending on points)! DO are monstrous beasts with 4+ armor and decent stats, so these guys fit quite well. Again, you'd want 6-8 of them - which will NOT be cheap in points, but will definitely keep your final model total down!

And have a few questions
What is the average model count of a Chaos army?
What size units are optimal for warriors / pts?
Does chaos benifet from a BSB enough to spend 135pts minimum on one with no ward save?

If you don't use marauders, your final model count will probably be 50-80, depending on warhound packs or character spam, etc. 18 warriors is a good size, and at least some (if not all) of them should have halberds. Yes, even if you're marked tizz. While WoC can just about get away without a BSB under 2000 points, I'd say at 2k+ every army in the game needs a BSB (I feel as if undead are included in this, though maybe they can wait for 2500 ). Please do buy your BSB a ward though, he's very much worth protecting, and also happens to be too awesome of a fighter to keep from combat all game. In case you haven't seen it, the standard WoC BSB is Exalted w/ MoT, BSB, talisman of endurance, halberd or shield = 179/180

I'd actually find it pretty interesting to fight a chaos list with a big block of ogres, a big block of drogres, a couple blocks of warriors, some warhounds and the obligatory level 4 + BSB. Mostly, it's those chaos MI / MB units that so rarely see the table

Here's a shot at a very simple list of the above ...

- Salvage

Ty for the post Very very helpful. I think your right about the ogres, the only thing that I had issues with is the low WS compared to your average Minotaur is quite bad, but this unless vs higher the ws6 is pretty much irrelevant.

I guess ill wait and see what happens with the forsaken, I'll hold off on the bestigors until the new book

I am undecided about the cyber wolfs as of yet they are more costly in rl then they are worth in game, especially for multiple units and as well I would have to do some base size reduction

I was going to go with the amulet of preservation + the mark of tzeentch gives her a 3+ ward But I was also tempted to give her the Crimson armor of Dargan, which would make her virtually un-killable in a single round of combat, the only problem with that at the same time is I liek the idea of having this kind of load out



I'll likely swap something out in order to get that charmed shield, the parry save I think being ward should stack along with the mark of tzeentch and the amulet unless I'm mistaken giving a 2+ward for combat? and the option to negate the first wound or instant kill received or something like that.

I know I've come down with "may have 100pts of equip, must have 100pts of equip" but I aim to have this character maintain a level of importance as she indefinitely will be the ultimate host of my entire army to whichever point-age it grows to.


As for marauders, I had planned to use 1 unit if for nothing more then a bunker for my on-foot sorceress because I would like a level 2 dispell caddy rolling with the eye of tzeentch to have some protection.


And I feel like a bit of a noob asking this, I only known chaos really in the old ways... now the demons are gone, Am I able to mix the marks in my army? I mean, according to WAR and Lore the ravenhost, lord of change is usually the one that draws the great 4 together in unity, hence the change.

Sasa0mg wrote:But I was also tempted to give her the Crimson armor of Dargan, which would make her virtually un-killable in a single round of combat ...

Thing is, your sorcerer lord is more likely to die over a series of hits, like from miscasting or being sniped by magic or beaten down in combat, not really a multi-wound weapon. Also, she's got better things to spend her points on then 40+ point armor!

Sorceress Lord 420pts
Level 4 Wizard
Mark of Tzeentch
Disc of Tzeentch
Conjoined Homunculus
Book of Secrets
Spell Familiar
Talisman of Preservation
Favour of the Gods

Disc sorcerer lords are 100% doable - although I don't think you get too much return for putting your main caster AND often your general at considerable risk - but I think the best build probably looks a lot like the one I posted: biting blade, charmed shield, preservation, ARCANE ITEM (puppet or scroll or power familiar). As far as your build goes, it's illegal (two enchanted items) for one, but the book of secrets also doesn't work like you think it does. It in fact resets your level to 1 if you already have a wizard level! Also, I'm not a fan of the homunculus at all, +2 to a cast doesn't mean much in a world of IF, and the stupid test afterwards WILL be failed at some point. Particularly on a disk away from the BSB! Finally, spell familiar isn't that awesome on MoT, since there are only 6 spells and 1-2 of them are real stinkers.

I'll likely swap something out in order to get that charmed shield, the parry save I think being ward should stack along with the mark of tzeentch and the amulet unless I'm mistaken giving a 2+ward for combat? and the option to negate the first wound or instant kill received or something like that.

Well, parry saves do stack with MoT (so warriors with shields have 5+ parry), but parry saves don't stack with standard wards, you simply take the best available. However you don't even get a parry save with a magical shield. It's on her so she has 3+ armor and drops the first hit - which will likely be a miscast if she's on foot or a cannonball if on disc.

As for marauders, I had planned to use 1 unit if for nothing more then a bunker for my on-foot sorceress because I would like a level 2 dispell caddy rolling with the eye of tzeentch to have some protection.

Save the backup caster and bunker for 2500, you can get by without either at 2000. Also, when you build your marauders please do not build them with shields, go with flails or great weapons (probably the latter). Turtle marauders do just about nothing, while S5 dudes can at least kill something when they need to.

Am I able to mix the marks in my army? I mean, according to WAR and Lore the ravenhost, lord of change is usually the one that draws the great 4 together in unity, hence the change.

Everybody is friends now, so you can mix whatever marks you want in an army, and marked characters can hang out with units marked from rival gods. Yes, it's a little dumb.

- Salvage

Ogres with great weapons Khorne
Marauders with great weapons with Khorne (I aim to use gor's most likely, I wouldn't think of using shields really)

Preservation 45pts
Crimson armor 40pts
Charmed shield 5pts

90pt total.

3+ ward, even if she's hit by a cannon and fails, wounds can't be multiplied, immune to poison and killing blow, charmed shield lets her ignore the first wound taken. I would go with the biting blade but the idea of the disc is to keep her away from people at a distance enough to be safe from charges but close enough to keep her in range. If she gets charged It will be from flyers and I highly doubt they will actually take her with her defences

The marks are really dumb, I can say I do miss the old Chaos infighting was one of the more fun parts, sacred numbers, hatred for rivals etc etc. All I can do now is take advantage, make some fluffy reason as to why I'm using conveniently placed marks and carry on with it.


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Talisman of Endurance + mark of tzeentch for the BSB, give him a 4+ ward as the preservation is taken

I will need to procure a model for him...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hell I just realized she can have a biting blade as well

Crimson armor and c.shield are both magical armor, so it's one or the other. Also, c.shield is 5 points One of the real hits against the c.armor is not just that it's so many points, not just that it does so little for her, but that she can't really fit in an arcane item as well. WoC have access to some of the best - infernal puppet, power familiar, dispel scroll, spell familiar (in that order) - yet runs so few casters (1-2) that you always want to be taking one.

The deal with the biting blade is that especially with the new VC you really must have a magical weapon in your army somewhere. If it's on the disc rider she can zip in and trash ethereal units with some careful planning, since she's got good stats and they're always small and relatively gimpy. If that's too risky for you, then please give the BSB a biting blade, if not one of the other 5-15 point ones (though his discount b.blade is pretty excellent), so at least one warrior unit won't get bogged down.

EDIT: Ninja'd on the points costs ...

- Salvage

I thought you could give multiple magic armors if one came from the common magic items list and wasn't a full piece of armor, in that case that is a pain in the backside.


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Going for something like this then.

Sorceress Lord 400pts
Level 4 Wizard
Mark of Tzeentch
Disc of Tzeentch
Talisman of Preservation
Charmed Shield
Biting Blade
Spell Familiar
Power Familiar

Given that she's going to be the only caster for a while then I've gone with spell and power familiar, 5 spells +5 to cast. I would get the puppet thing but D3 although I can see how that would change a fairly tame miscasts to a really devastating one I think I would rather let nature run its course rather then wait for the opportunity to worsen a miscast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
BSB

Exalted Hero 180pts
Mark of Tzeentch
Shield
Talisman of Endurance
The Bronze Armour of Zhrakk

I figured he can't be general anyway and with chaos leadership him confering his LD isn't that big of a deal anyway, especially if the lord happens to be floating around, so giving him Bronze armor makes him immune to killing blow, poison and psychology, the talisman + tzeentch giving him a 4+ ward as well and he has a shield.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Okay, list so far I seem to be 47pts over. Only 40 of those matter as friendly games that I play give me room for 10pts above or below.

Warriors of Chaos Army List.

Content: 0 – Lord (400/500pts) Total: 400pts
1 – Heroes (180/500pts) Total: 180pts
2 – Core (677/500+) Total: 677pts
3 – Special (380/500) Total: 380pts
4 – Rare (410/500) Total: 410pts
Overall Total: 2047pts
Remaining: -47pts


LORD(s)
Sorceress Lord
Level 4 Wizard
Mark of Tzeentch
Disc of Tzeentch
Talisman of Preservation
Charmed Shield
Biting Blade
Spell Familiar
Power Familiar

HEROE(s)
Exalted Hero
Mark of Tzeentch
Shield
Talisman of Endurance
The Bronze Armour of Zhrakk

CORE(s)
40 Chaos Marauders
Great Weapons
Musician
Standard Bearer
Chieftain
Mark of Khorne

20 Chaos Warriors
Mark of Khorne
Musician 8pts
Standard Bearer
Champion
Additional Hand Weapon
Razor Standard

SPECIAL(s)
6 Ogre’s
6 Chaos Armour
6 Great Weapons
Mark of Khorne
Musician
Standard Bearer
Mutant Ogre

RARE(s)
2 Hellcannon

Removing Chaos Armour from the ogres is an option that would bring the points back enough to field everything, though I like the idea of them having the armour, mind it might be excessive given there multi-wounds and toughness 4.

Can Ogres have different weapons or do they all require to have the same thing? If not that would also be pretty sweet to have, front ranks with the 2handers 2nd rank with the additional, I might even get to put in some warhounds that way.

So much for theme, eh Sasa? Looks like the usual maximum hellcannons + khorne warriors/marauders + tizz level 4 & BSB you see at tournaments, but with a block of khorne ogres instead of tizz shield warriors. Ah well, it looked like you were headed in an interesting direction for a while ...

As to the list however, there are some issues, and I can easily make it fit into 2000 for you. From the top:
+ Sorcerer Lord can't have both spell and power familiar, as they are arcane. Drop the spell familiar, keep the power familiar, prepare to be hurt in the dispel phase without puppet or scroll, but do well in the casting phase with the +1PD.
+ No argument on bronze armor, I prefer dragonhelm though if I'm spending more points on defense (2+ armor with a shield, 1+ ward vs fire). Anti-KB is good stuff.
+ Ahw on warriors is a waste, any of the other upgrades benefit the whole unit. Since it looks like you want the best of the best, get halberds + shields: halberds because S5 warriors are gods, shields because this is THE unit that the enemy needs to be rid of, so 3+ armor against shooting is good to have. When you run them, put the BSB in and go 7-wide, and pray your opponents don't know how to divert it into never making its points back.
+ Drop all of your champions except the warrior champ. WoC champs can get you in trouble because they too must challenge, but the warrior one can keep the BSB from auto-challenging into a tight spot.
+ Seriously, two hellcannons? And you're British? I didn't think there were many events left in the UK that allow double 'cannons, and usually 'friendly' lists should aspire to at least match tournament lists for comp! I'd much prefer if you dropped one, bought 2-3x 5 warhounds and then did something interesting with the rest of the points. Like 3x 5 warhounds and 2 more ogres in the ogre unit (8 ogres is serious!), then pick up the +1M banner for the warriors.

Anyway, once you make those changes you get this:

Sorcerer Lord - MoT, level 4, biting blade, charmed shield, talisman of preservation, power familiar, disc = 390
Exalted Hero - MoT, BSB, talisman of endurance, bronze armor, shield = 195

20 Warriors - MoK, full command, halberds, shields = 400
40 Marauders - MoK, standard, musician, great weapons = 242

6 Ogres - MoK, standard, musician, great weapons, chaos armor = 360

Hellcannon = 205
Hellcannon = 205
----------
1997

Rather generic but at least plays a smashy game, which is good? But as noted, a smart opponent will divert your three frenzied blocks around and feed them less than their points, while s/he figures out how to kill two severely undercosted monster-artillery pieces. Top Tip: Do not shoot your hellcannons if you can help it, it's the easiest way to kill them off. Instead put them on your front lines and plow forward, they are brutal in combat, particularly against T3 opponents. This would also help give you a proper battleline, which three blocks + disc is not.

EDIT: Ogres have to have the same weapons throughout the unit. Also, if you want to see my alt list, it's under the spoiler ...

- Salvage

Well looks like you guys are already deep into this.

I personally love flying sorcerers and usually field two on discs.

A really effective build for the disc imo is.

Sorcerer lord 415
mot
lvl4
Tali of preservation
Charmed shield
Infernal puppet
disc
blood curdling roar

It may be pricey but this guy is tough to kill and has a lot of offensive capabilities.
Other than having flickering fire to simply fry something he also has roar. Roar gives him the capability of also killing war machines and high toughness monsters or heavily armored knights.
He also is capable of altering miscasts having the puppet on him making him effective with pandaemonium which he has a good chance of getting.

As for the power familiar I usually put that on the lvl2 on disc.

The bronze armor is not really that good sadly.
If you want to armor him better I suggest either the enchanted shield or the dragon helm and a normal shield (both options cost the same and give him the same armor save, one gives him more points for magical stuff as well as a 2+ ward against anything thats on fire).

I had a good long thought about which mark chaos ogres would benefit from the most and I didnt come to a certain conclusion.
My thought was mok gives me 3 extra attacks and im itp.
Mon makes ws4 things less likely to hit.
Mos is meh they cause fear already and unless the hounds die near them they should be fine.
Mot would be funny if they could take shields but hey a 6+ ward is still nice.

None of the marks really stood out as being exceptional unless done to a large unit.

If not having ogres is ok then why not go for a unit of trolls or another unit of warriors? Cant go wrong with either imo.

Sorry about the geneticism of my list I think I will actually remove both hellcannons until 2500pts. The reason I went to them so quickly was because I have heard of how devistating they are and I also know what I'm going to have to contend with within the "friendly" gaming circle at the GW and LGS I'm going to be playing at.

The players are the same at both.

Teclis High elves list
Hydra wielding Kharnite list
Slaan and beasty Lizardmen list
Clan Eishin Skaven list
Generic Skaven monster list (double abom etc)

And there just the ones that I've seen play.
I also dislike the fact that I'm using MoK, but it is the best thing to equip my larger units with and it feels like it would be silly to sacrifice the ability to have frenzy for anything else regarding combat units.
If I were to have chosen however I would more then likely stick with the Mot.

2500pts is were it gets really hairy and your right having double hellcannons is bad practice though I may bring them or at least one into 2500pts on account of thats when things get a little hairy with the larger mounted lords and such.

-----
Hmm, I like the model for the Shaggroth but its a large investment of points for something with no ward, armor or regenerative capabilities. At the same time its speed would match the warriors and could be good for bringing about some additional fear for picking a target, though it would then leave me with about 76pts spair and thats with no hellcannon's.

I'm not sure about the cannon's.

Also I'm tempted to give my BSB a dispell scroll (if thats possible)

The curren't idea list is in the spoiler.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
The problem with the 2+ ward vs fire is that, cannon balls are likely to be his biggest problem, that and characters which he already has a 4+ in general.
If anything I am contemplating removing it altogether and using it for something else, possibly a dispel scroll or something of the like.

Warriors of Chaos Army List.

Content: 0 – Lord (385/500pts) Total: 385pts
1 – Heroes (180/500pts) Total: 180pts
2 – Core (714/500+) Total: 714pts
3 – Special (460/500) Total: 460pts
4 – Rare (205/500) Total: 205pts
Overall Total: 2004pts
Remaining: -4pts


LORD(s)
Sorceress Lord
Level 4 Wizard
Mark of Tzeentch
Disc of Tzeentch
Talisman of Preservation
Charmed Shield
Biting Blade
Power Familiar

HEROE(s)
Exalted Hero
Mark of Tzeentch
Shield
Talisman of Endurance
The Bronze Armour of Zhrakk

CORE(s)
40 Chaos Marauders
Great Weapons
Musician
Standard Bearer
Mark of Khorne

20 Chaos Warriors
Mark of Tzeentch
Musician
Standard Bearer
Champion
Halberds
Shields
Banner of Rage

5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds


SPECIAL(s)
8 Ogre’s
8 Chaos Armour
8 Great Weapons
Mark of Khorne
Musician
Standard Bearer

RARE(s)
Hellcannon

Any thoughts?
When I came to think about it I was running a group of warriors with halberds using the mark of khorne, when I hadn't yet given the banner of rage to anyone. So I could give them the mark of tzeentch to give them 5+ parries 6+ward to range and use the banner of rage to simulate the mark of Khorne? Managing to keep my composition at least 50% Tzeentch in terms of marks... I wish I had daemons available to me.
I buffed the ogres as suggested and stacked in 2 more units of 5 Wolves to give me some deployment superiority, or at least to even the odds though I'm unsure how I feel about having only 2 real units in the game... while at the same time trying to keep in mind it is only 2000pts.
I did want to keep at least 1 Cannon on account of helping to deal with stacked 30man + units. After that I'm at a loss as to what I could use without taking away even more from my model count to give to the army. The idea of trolls crossed my mind but there Initiative and lack of stats were discouraging even if they did have regeneration.

The ability to stack Shaggoth and a Giant for 500pts rare crossed the mind too, at the cost of cannons but theres no way I could fit it properly into my army list without taking from one of the units already there... Also don't find myself able to take knights in this level of pointage without taking from my bare essentials.

Okay...

Completely re-done the list at the moment I'm unsure about the halberds, if I remove there shields they will save me about 16pts, but I have it there to have the option of a 5+ parry if they get charged by something big or shot at... I dunno But I have removed them as for in combat they'll be useless.
There's only 1 unit in my 2000pts atm without the mark of tzeentch and thats my GW wielding Marauders which I currently plan to model with puppet strings over them as a whole, probably something I'll attach to there movement tray as I intend for this army to be Tzeentch which would make them have to be a puppet of Tzeentch! Also there less like pure marauders and more like a rabble of khorne worshippers forced into battle as half of them will be Gor's with Bestigor great weapons for representation etc.

I've left out cannon and Giants, they will come in at 2500pts I think. For now I feel a little uneasy with the lack of troops and the general theme my army was starting to take!

So something I've gone back and revisted

Added in a 2nd caster. This being a level 2 sorcerer but they will be using the the puppet item to make up for the fact that my lord doesn't. They'll also have a spell familiar for the extra spell giving them 3.

Then I decided to add a 3rd caster... My BsB with no magic banner, giving him the book of secrets to make him a level 1 + his anti-killing blow armor.

BsB will go with the halberds, taking them into the thick of things with the rerollable leadership. The level 2 caster will be in the unit of 16 warriors with the 4+ ward banner for magic and normal missiles, meaning that if someone tries to cannon snipe the puppet they'll be met with a 3+ ward save all around.

The lord will be running around on her flying mount killing things.


I'm hoping that the sheer magical power that my army will be able to flood out will help overcome some larger units I might come up against.

The lord gets +6 to casting and 4 spells
Lvl 2 gets +3 to casting and 3 spells + third eye of Tzeentch
The BSB gets +2 to casting and 1 spell.


Anyway the list.

Warriors of Chaos Army List.

Content: 0 – Lord (405/500pts) Total: 405pts
1 – Heroes (394/500pts) Total: 420pts
2 – Core (/500+) Total: 1026pts
3 – Special (460/500) Total: 0pts
4 – Rare (150/500) Total:150pts
Overall Total: 2001pts
Remaining: -1pts


LORD(s)
Sorceress Lord
Level 4 Wizard
Mark of Tzeentch
Disc of Tzeentch
Talisman of Preservation
Charmed Shield
Biting Blade
Power Familiar
Bloodcurdling Roar

HEROE(s)
Chaos Sorcerer
Level 2 Wizard
Mark of Tzeentch
Infernal Puppet
Spell Familiar
Third Eye of Tzeentch

Exalted Hero
Mark of Tzeentch
Army Battle Standard
Shield
Book of Secrets
Biting blade
The Bronze Armour of Zhrakk

CORE(s)
16 Chaos Warriors
Mark of Tzeentch
Musician
Standard Bearer
Champion
Shields
Blasted Standard

16 Chaos Warriors
Mark of Tzeentch
Musician
Standard Bearer
Champion
Halberds
Banner of Rage

5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds

40 Chaos Marauders
Great Weapons
Musician
Standard Bearer
Mark of Khorne

SPECIAL(s)


RARE(s)
Chaos Warshrine
Mark of Tzeentch

I am half tempted to remove the halberders and top up the shields to 20size and run another unit of marauders but I'm unsure... Opinions? Idea's? very much welcome

Sasa0mg wrote:I'm unsure about the halberds, if I remove there shields they will save me about 16pts, but I have it there to have the option of a 5+ parry if they get charged by something big or shot at... I dunno But I have removed them as for in combat they'll be useless.

You actually don't have the option of using the shields in combat, you must use the halberd. The shields only protect against ranged fire (magic missiles as well as mundane ones). In my experience shields always save at least 1+ warrior, and since they usually cost the price of 1 warrior ... Also most halberd conversions don't use both hands, so the shield works well in its usual spot

There's only 1 unit in my 2000pts atm without the mark of tzeentch and thats my GW wielding Marauders ...

... and there's no reason they couldn't have MoT too. Mine do, and I actually prefer it that way. Half of a point buys each dude a 6+ ward! And I also value theme and control over my units over +1A to the front rank & ItP. But sounds like you've got modeling in mind anyway, so that's solved at least.

Added in a 2nd caster. This being a level 2 sorcerer but they will be using the the puppet item to make up for the fact that my lord doesn't. They'll also have a spell familiar for the extra spell giving them 3.

So first off he can't have spell familiar + puppet, as they're both arcane. Clearly you should keep the puppet! But there's more: with the way spell selection works, and the fact that Lore of Tizz has only 6 spells, this guy will occasionally end up with only 2 spells anyway! I can explain this if you need it explained, but essentially 1 in every X games the spell familiar will literally do nothing for him. Guh.

My BsB with no magic banner, giving him the book of secrets to make him a level 1 + his anti-killing blow armor.

I still think dragonhelm is better, particularly if he has no real ward to fall back on. Also, don't give him a magic sword now, you want him to be able to 5+ parry. Anyway, d.helm gives him 2/6+ (2/5+ in combat) which is pretty rocking, on top of 1+ fire ward. KB armor gives him a 3/6+ (3/5+) that occasionally receives a benefit vs poison or KB assassins. Also, you need to select the Book's lore when you make your list (I'd choose FIRE myself).

BsB will go with the halberds, taking them into the thick of things with the rerollable leadership. The level 2 caster will be in the unit of 16 warriors with the 4+ ward banner for magic and normal missiles, meaning that if someone tries to cannon snipe the puppet they'll be met with a 3+ ward save all around.

Where does that 3+ ward come from? Blasted standard gives the unit a 5+ which becomes 4+ with Tizz. And don't worry much about artillery snipes, LOS! gives a 2+ 'save' before the ward even kicks in. (Totally ignoring the hitting part, a cannon or stone thrower will hit, wound, get through the ward and kill the sorcerer 1 in 17 shots. It is far more likely that artillery is blasting out your disc lord anyway.)

The lord gets +6 to casting and 4 spells
Lvl 2 gets +3 to casting and 3 spells + third eye of Tzeentch
The BSB gets +2 to casting and 1 spell.

Um, the lord gets +5 ...

Normally I have 0 faith in that much magic investment paying off - magic is so extremely fickle in 8th. However you do have some power dice generation capability, with the power familiar and 3 casters, so maybe it will work for you?

I of course have a tweak in the spoiler, which gets you more bodies in those warrior blocks and cleans up some illegal / redundant items.

- Salvage

I thought the lord sorc was along the lines of +4 for lvl 4, +1 for MoT and another +1 for power familiar but I didn't realize the familiar was an extra dice I may drop that.

Will drop that spell familiar too although I thought that the lvl2 sorc could pick from lore of death or fire but I notice that requires him to lose his mark I wonder if that would be worth while, at the moment he garuntee's that I'll at least have all the spells in the Tzeentch list.

I thought you could double up on flickerfire as its the signature spell if all spells were taken up? Is why I went to give him the spell familiar.

I notice you advised about not having the BSB in with the halberds, were should I put him regarding that then, in with the 20 MoT warriors? I was thinking that would be were the sorcerer went, to have them both in the same unit would be artillery bait I assumed? Or should I have the other sorcerer running about outside the unit on foot?

Keep the power familiar, being able to generate power dice on top of the winds roll is IMO a key to having a functional magic phase! Far stronger than adding to a casting total. If you do drop the power familiar, only do so if you're picking up a dispel scroll - essentially focusing a little more on defense than offense (which is what I do but I'm pessimistic about magic).

Thinking about the spell selection deal, I may have the rule wrong - I thought that if a later wizard rolled a spell taken by the first wizard, then you rerolled. However I think it might be that the later wizard gets to pick? In which case you would never need to roll for the level 2: the level 4 rolls up her spells, swaps for flicker if not rolled, then the level 2 takes the 2 left and flicker.

OH! That's it. If the level 4 doesn't take flickering fire (?!), then the level 2 has only 2 spells, one of which is flickering fire already. Highly unlikely and easily avoided, but there it is.

All the same, I don't find Call to Glory is ever worth taking, which is basically what happens in this case, assure that somebody has to take it

Yes, with your list I was just putting both heroes in the turtle warriors. Sure it's a bunker but it's one hell of a bunker! And again, artillery is going into your disc first and the halberd maniacs second. Shelling the bunker doesn't have a lot of return vs the other two.

An honest question, have you played much fantasy? Frenzy on hyper-strong combat units that the enemy rarely wants to fight - like those halberd warriors - really can be a severe liability, due to mandatory pursuit and overruns. Hence why I'm keen to keep your BSB with the rest of the army and alive, not rampaging deep into enemy territory (and/or getting flanked and possibly destroyed!)

- Salvage

My only real fantasy experience is with vampire counts about 5 years ago or more and Skaven, and usually fighting elves so I'm lacking in the experience department for frenzied's.


I think so long as you I get to choose which wizard's spells I roll first my or even rolling symaltaniously its less likely that the 2nd wizard will come away with no flicker xD

Now I need to work out how I would evolve this list into 2500, I was considering ogres, warriors, cannon, shrine's for potential add ons, maybe even a giant could be quite interesting xD


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Just had something appeal to me, in those larger games fighting high wound high toughness creatures is almost a given, I am half tempted to take an un-marked sorcerer(ess) probably going to be modelled like a slave if I do, to run with the spell familiar and Lore of Death.

I dont think the bsb needs the book.
You already have 3 powerful flaming magic missiles 2x flickering fire since its the sig so both casters should have it. Then the lvl4 hopefully gets gateway. The book giving the bsb fireball is a little silly and really puts a strain on your power dice.
Sine you want pandaemonium up as often and as long as possible so that usually costs 3 to 4 dice (assuming the lvl 4 has it) so that the enemy burns dispelll scrolls and such on it early on. Gateway is about 4 to 5 dice on the lvl4 imo and then you use a single die to cast flickering fire.
Thats 9 dice on average to get those spells off.
You would need a really good magic phase every time to get treason in there which is amazing on gw hordes and then the bsb has his one spell. So its going to be tight.

As boss said not much wants to fight mok halberd warriors but they are quite good for determining the enemies moves once they are deployed and on the move.


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For 2500 a cannon is definitely a good call and with it being in resin and no longer being a pain to build it would seem like a good idea.

Giants are cool just dont expect them to do much since they usually get shot first.

Shrine isnt bad gives buffs is tough and ya.

I dunno, the lord with +5 can 1 dice near enough every spell going apart from gateway and at the same time force the enemy to dispell scroll or use 2 power dice. As long as I get about 6 power dice including the familiar I'll have enough to get most spells out. With +5 I wouldn't think to use more then 2-3 dice to get a 15+ when I'm getting +5 Pan on a 3+ with 1dice is easy to cast. Double dice would just be purely to drain dispel dice or scrolls from the enemy.

If I were to include 'another' unmarked sorc, it would remove the book from the BSB more then likely, because then power dice would become an issue unless familiar's could be taken more then once.


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4-5 dice on anything is tempting miscast fate lol


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Call too glory might be decent for character sniping/challenge obsorbing, It might still have its use if I were in the right situation for it xD

The thing is some of the spells have to go through like pandaemonium. The spell gives you a huge advantage. If they dont dispel it then they have to use up power dice in their turn to stop it which can reduce the gap between his power dice and your dispel dice. The opponent might not dispel so you can then make them their cast go horribly wrong.

Yes the lvl 4 can cast a lot on few dice but the thing is with casting an early gateway is you use up their dispel scrolls which gives you a huge advantage. You also have the puppet and if you roll semi well then on a 7 your disc lord dosnt care.

When I run 3 casters one usually dosnt cast per turn. You also have third eye. So you have a huge selection of magic to use but only limited dice. The book is way out of place imo.

Warriors of Chaos Army List.

Content: 0 – Lord (410/500pts) Total: 410pts
1 – Heroes (385/500pts) Total: 385pts
2 – Core (1074/500+) Total: 1074pts
3 – Special (0/500) Total: 0pts
4 – Rare (130/500) Total:130pts
Overall Total: 1999pts
Remaining: 1pts


LORD(s)
Sorceress Lord
Level 4 Wizard
Mark of Tzeentch
Disc of Tzeentch
Talisman of Preservation
Charmed Shield
Biting Blade
Power Familiar
Bloodcurdling Roar

HEROE(s)
Chaos Sorcerer
Level 2 Wizard
Mark of Tzeentch
Infernal Puppet
Third Eye of Tzeentch

Exalted Hero
Mark of Tzeentch
Army Battle Standard
Shield
Book of Secrets

CORE(s)
20 Chaos Warriors
Mark of Tzeentch
Musician
Standard Bearer
Champion
Shields
Blasted Standard

18 Chaos Warriors
Mark of Tzeentch
Musician
Standard Bearer
Champion
Halberds
Banner of Rage

5 Warhounds
5 Warhounds

40 Chaos Marauders
Great Weapons
Musician
Standard Bearer
Mark of Khorne

SPECIAL(s)


RARE(s)
Chaos Warshrine

Given that the 20 block is going to be my bunker unit I really do want to keep that banner there with them, theres going to be about 2 characters sitting in that unit and I do feel that they will end up coming under fire because of it so I'm unsure how I feel about removing that.
I wanted to keep the book because it generates an extra power dice at the very least which is helpful...
I don't understand much about the dragonhelm, it gives him another +1 to save but fire related ward save?

The upside to removing the standard would be getting my spell familiar back but I'm unsure really about it :s I could do with some convincing. I feel like I'm almost done with this list but I have some unease regarding the BSB's protection and the bunkers as well if I remove the banner... But the above is what I have so far.

Sasa0mg wrote:I wanted to keep the book because it generates an extra power dice at the very least which is helpful...

It actually doesn't any longer, that has been FAQ'd out. But it does give another channeling attempt in both phases, which isn't bad. And you still need to decide on what lore the book has. I'm still partial to FIRE but DEATH isn't a bad idea I suppose, as him casting isn't the most important thing in the world. Really what you want is an augment - Flaming Sword is superb - or a hex - Soulblight / Doom & Darkness are superb - because the Lore of Tizz lacks either of these. (IMO one of its most obvious failings.) Thing with FIRE is that the signature default is worth casting all the time, vs DEATH which has so many short range situational spells. Top Tip: if you do bring back spell familiar, think about giving it to this guy, as he'll get another FIRE / DEATH spell out of it

I don't understand much about the dragonhelm, it gives him another +1 to save but fire related ward save?

D.helm gives +1 armor and a 2+ (which becomes 1+ with MoT) ward vs fire. And many people are still giving fire to their hardest hitters, so ...

List looks fine as is, keep the blasted standard and see how many people shoot the bunker. Like I said, it's about 3rd on the list of targets, particularly if you hold it back and use it as a bunker, rather than 21 warriors + an exalted hero (as in, put it in your battleline and break face).

- Salvage

Decided to go with you on this

Sorcerer Lord - MoT, level 4, bloodcurdling roar; biting blade, charmed shield, talisman of preservation, power familiar, disc = 410
Chaos Sorcerer - MoT, level 2, third eye; infernal puppet = 200
Exalted Hero - MoT, BSB, dragonhelm, book of secrets (FIRE), shield = 185

18 Warriors - MoT, banner of rage, full command, halberds = 373
20 Warriors - MoT, full command, shields = 370
40 Marauders - MoK, standard, musician, great weapons = 242
5 Warhounds = 30
5 Warhounds = 30
5 Warhounds = 30

Warshrine = 130


I get what you mean, thinking about it from the opposite perspective, the target for ranged will more likely then not be the units which pose an imminent threat, namely the ones rushing towards them. If anything loops round to try and take my characters out it will more then likely be a form of cavalry or infantry.

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Now time to work on 2500pts!