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I hope this isn't a completely stupid question, but I'm just curious how GW calculates what everything is worth in terms of points. My only guess was that every point in a units profile had a fixed value. Example: every point of WS=10 points. Every points of BS=10 points and so on and so forth for all the attributes. The thing that confused me the most was the increase in the cost of Carnifexes with the latest Tyranid Codex. It seemed to me their points cost went way up, and they only were buffed a small amount. Which to me, doesn't seem to compensate for the cost increase. Especially considering every time I read someone's army list and someone brings along a Fex, more than one person will comment and say, "Get rid of the fex. Not worth it." How do they factor in the points costs for certain abstract special rules? Is there an actual system that they use or do they just slap points on to things with their best guess at how it will turn out?

There is no specific formula. Some folks have come up with their own statline calculators in the past to retro-engineer approximations, but they never match up cleanly. A given special rule or upgrade may honestly be worth more or less in the context of a different book.

From what's been said by the studio in the past, there is no specific formula. They start out with a points value that seems about right, play a few games with it, and tweak it as seems appropriate.

There are levels of complexity to it, though, as the points a unit costs are somewhat altered by its effectiveness and place within the army. Marine Devastators, for example, pay a different cost for their heavy weapons to a tactical squad, because they are used in different ways.

And an equivalent squad might be costed completely differently in a different codex, depending on that army's composition and other options.

Inquisitor has a formula, but the main 40k and fantasy games do not

It reportedly has something to do with a bottle of whiskey and a dartboard with lots of numbers painted on it. a 6, a 11, 15, 19, 60, 123. Darts have been found in the vicinity with special rule names written on them.

Other rumors include kittens, a huge sack, a blindfold, calculator and a jellyfish. I for one, suspiciously doubt a calculator has anything to do with it at all.

RT had a customisation system, which worked out points based on a baseline.
You could make special characters with it, and it was used for RPG-type 40k campaigns.
Each weapon has points, too.
I think even vehicles (very different at the time) had their own points system.

As for now, it's probably based on comparison with other codex units, and unit type (Troop cost +1, HP maybe -5 points each...)

Most models seem to roughly follow this mantra :

base cost of the guy in question (marine, terminators, boy, nob, aspect warrior, guardsman, veteran etc)
+ upgrades/special rules (often consistent across the codex)
x 0.8 to 1.5 based on fluff, playtesting or the vision of a highly intoxicated GW designer listening to a blue chicken-headed entity of chaos

For vehicles it looks more like they just put them in a line and arbitrarily assign point costs from strongest to weakest, while that line tends to be faulty from time to time.

Jidmah wrote:Most models seem to roughly follow this mantra :

base cost of the guy in question (marine, terminators, boy, nob, aspect warrior, guardsman, veteran etc)
+ upgrades/special rules (often consistent across the codex)
x 0.8 to 1.5 based on fluff, playtesting or the vision of a highly intoxicated GW designer listening to a blue chicken-headed entity of chaos

For vehicles it looks more like they just put them in a line and arbitrarily assign point costs from strongest to weakest, while that line tends to be faulty from time to time.

The faction also seem to play a part in the cost. Just as an example (not meant to be perfectly accurate) Tau may have close combat units, but they are overcosted while high strenght long range is cheaper for them than other armies.

Stetson-Harrison method.

That is, they pick they pick the numbers from hat. At least it looks like that.

So, going back to my example, the Carnifex. Do we think that GW is sneaky enough to actually jack up the points cost of the Carnifex to coincide with the release of the Trygon/Mawloc and the subsequent release of the Tyrannofex/Tervigon to encourage people to buy them? Part of me thinks that's rubbish because if your a devoted servant of the Hive Mind your gonna pick up new releases just because they are cool enough. But, we all know that it only take a few stingy money grubbing share holders/investors to encourage idiotic behavior that devalues past purchases and hardwork on old models.

I think they didn't count on the meta being AP3 everywhere when they costed the Fexes. If they actually could get their armour saves sometimes then they would be better.

I agree with Fryboth. Something seems awfully suspicious about a codex that went from Nidzilla with Fexes being viable to the current state with the new MCs.

Actually yeah that's part of the reason why they did it as well - to nerf Nid-zilla.

Andilus Greatsword wrote:I think they didn't count on the meta being AP3 everywhere when they costed the Fexes. If they actually could get their armour saves sometimes then they would be better.

Arguable. Trygon is +25% cost, +50% to all quantitative scores, +3I, -3S, +2WS. I would still choose it over the fex.

The more I think about it the more it seems like they made the Carnifex almost totally useless. Especially after the release of the Tyrannofex. Now we have Trygons and Mawlocs with great stats for close combat and the tyrannofex with the big guns and 2+ armor. Not to mention Hive Guard on top of that. Instead of using the Carnifex which is highly adaptable you can just use the more specialized and purpose designed Trygon/Tyrannofex/Hive Guard.

I also can't really blame them (kinda). Why would anyone keep buying am older model that has tweaked stats when they can pick up new models that are designed for specific roles and do them much better?

It just gives me the frown town because, while the new models are all awesome, the Carnifex is still one of my favorites.

You could always do what me and my friends have done. keep playing 2nd

Nothing in the new codex rivals the might of the 2nd edition Carnifex.

Nemesor Dave wrote:

Jidmah wrote:Most models seem to roughly follow this mantra :

base cost of the guy in question (marine, terminators, boy, nob, aspect warrior, guardsman, veteran etc)
+ upgrades/special rules (often consistent across the codex)
x 0.8 to 1.5 based on fluff, playtesting or the vision of a highly intoxicated GW designer listening to a blue chicken-headed entity of chaos

For vehicles it looks more like they just put them in a line and arbitrarily assign point costs from strongest to weakest, while that line tends to be faulty from time to time.

The faction also seem to play a part in the cost. Just as an example (not meant to be perfectly accurate) Tau may have close combat units, but they are overcosted while high strenght long range is cheaper for them than other armies.

That's what I meant by the x.0.8 to 1.5. Kroot vs Boyz is a prefect example of this. Just in a few cases they seem to increase the point cost for no reason whatsoever.

That doesn't really carry over to the GK Codex, considering that they get Force Weapons included in the base cost of a 20-24 point model when most other Space Marines have to spend 15 points just to get a Power Weapon.

Or Assault Marines, which cost 20 points base and include a Jump Pack, whereas Death Company has to spend 15 points for a Jump pack. In that case, it seems like the cost is compounded by its role as a force multiplier. Another example of this, a Warboss has to spend 10 pts on a Cybork Body whereas a Nob has to spend 5, etc. Upgrade cost seems partly dependent on the model it's upgrading.

TedNugent wrote:That doesn't really carry over to the GK Codex, considering that they get Force Weapons included in the base cost of a 20-24 point model when most other Space Marines have to spend 15 points just to get a Power Weapon.

Thus spake someone who doesnt understand the points cost associated with mandatory "upgrades" rather than optional ones.

Or are you going to complain that banshees also dont pay 10 points (IG cost) for a power weapon?

When you are forced to pay for something, you pay less than when it is optional.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

TedNugent wrote:That doesn't really carry over to the GK Codex, considering that they get Force Weapons included in the base cost of a 20-24 point model when most other Space Marines have to spend 15 points just to get a Power Weapon.

Thus spake someone who doesnt understand the points cost associated with mandatory "upgrades" rather than optional ones.

Or are you going to complain that banshees also dont pay 10 points (IG cost) for a power weapon?

When you are forced to pay for something, you pay less than when it is optional.

You didn't read his whole post did you? Try reading his last phrase, he is not complaining.

Yes, I did. The last sentences deal with upgrade costs, not mandatory points costs.

TedNugent wrote:That doesn't really carry over to the GK Codex, considering that they get Force Weapons included in the base cost of a 20-24 point model when most other Space Marines have to spend 15 points just to get a Power Weapon.

Or Assault Marines, which cost 20 points base and include a Jump Pack, whereas Death Company has to spend 15 points for a Jump pack. In that case, it seems like the cost is compounded by its role as a force multiplier. Another example of this, a Warboss has to spend 10 pts on a Cybork Body whereas a Nob has to spend 5, etc. Upgrade cost seems partly dependent on the model it's upgrading.

Mind you, I wasn't talking about upgrades at all.

I disagree on the GK thing though, a regular grey knight is not a tactical marine. It's a grey knight, and that privilege comes with the shiny weapon, storm bolters, psychic powers, the brotherhood of psychers and a lot of other funky stuff. Just like Space Wolves come with counter-attack, black templars with righteous zeal and a vow, and vanilla marines with combat tactics and a free rocket launcher or multi-melta. So you get a basic marine body, no USR or useful heavy weapon for free, and instead the psyker package. And because GK are the psyker army, they get a heavy discount, too. They also couldn't afford fielding any troops otherwise. Now, if you add your "we have jump packs"-tax, you get interceptors, if you add the "veteran space marine with two attacks"-upgrade you have purifiers, allow heavy weapons to about everyone and you get their devastator variant.

Jump packs or wings always cost an arm and a leg for models that don't come with them naturally, so 15 points aren't that surprisingly if you think about it. Blood angel assault marines are one of their army features, so it's not surprising for them to be slightly over the curve. The base marine is the tactical guy, not the special assault one.

Cybork also doesn't compare, as nobz/flash gits can't get cybork without a painboy, warbosses and big meks can.

I largely agree with nos, though, mandatory upgrades are usually a lot cheaper than optional ones.

In all honesty - it is impossible to put a point value on anything and have it be standard. You have to take into account SO much stuff in order to figure what something is worth.

EG - Necron warriors cost 13 points - but if you look at the statline, they are not wonderful - they are average. But if you take into account RP, they should cost 1/3 more than an equivalent unit somewhere else.
EG - A bolter-line weapon on a Space Marine is worth more than an Orc - so the BS for for a SM is more expensive then an Orc.
EG - Leadership is by and far one of the most important values in the game - but to a Space Marine, Orc or Fearless unit, it probably costs less then to someone else

There is way too many factors to make PERFECT cost assessments. The only TRUE way to do it is, like someone said earlier, is to test against other equivalent cost models....

Amaraxis wrote:In all honesty - it is impossible to put a point value on anything and have it be standard. You have to take into account SO much stuff in order to figure what something is worth.

EG - Necron warriors cost 13 points - but if you look at the statline, they are not wonderful - they are average. But if you take into account RP, they should cost 1/3 more than an equivalent unit somewhere else.
EG - A bolter-line weapon on a Space Marine is worth more than an Orc - so the BS for for a SM is more expensive then an Orc.

Yeah, you already miss the point you made just before.
An ork boy has less strength, initiative, balistic skill, armor, leadership, but more attacks, waagh!, furious charge and mob rule.
A marine has less attacks, but better strength, initiative, balistic skill, armor, leadership in addtion to combat tactics, ATSKNF and grenades.
If you put point values on all of that, you'll probably find 10 points being fair.

EG - Leadership is by and far one of the most important values in the game - but to a Space Marine, Orc or Fearless unit, it probably costs less then to someone else

There is way too many factors to make PERFECT cost assessments. The only TRUE way to do it is, like someone said earlier, is to test against other equivalent cost models....

Leadership is almost always determined by guy the model is based on. Outside of HQs I don't think there are a lot of units with explicit leadership upgrades.
Besides that, almost every possible ork mob contains a boss pole because our ld is so bad, why would we get those upgrade cheaper than others?

Anyways, comparing cross-codex doesn't do anything. Context is important, that's why points aren't consistent even for identical models across all the MEQ codices.