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Do all stormtroopers(Schola Progenium) have to wear the same kind of carapace armor?

Are there ones(again Schola Progenium) that wear the same armor as the Kasrkins or perhaps different patterns of carapace?

A bit off topic: Since Stormtroopers are raised in a Adeptus Ministorum environment, are they themselves part of the Ecclesiarchy as well?

Karskarins are just Cadian Stormtroopers. they use the storm trooper rules. just different models.

Stormtroopers are not Ecclesiarchy students, the Scholam system isn't strictly a religious organization, although it does educate girls who will ultimately become Sisters of Battle. It also instructs students of both genders who will become Commissars, Administratum clerks, scribes, and various functionaries, as well as the Stormtrooper regiments. It's more like a combination military academy/religious school that's run by a mix of priests, Drill-Abbots, semi-retired Commissars and other such worthies.

Gear-wise, Stormtroopers all wear carapace armor, their signature weapons being the hellgun and hellpistol. The color of their gear, as well as additional equipment, might vary based on mission requirements, though I'm not sure that this is explicitly stated anywhere, nor do I recall it being refuted anywhere.

so then every servicemen in the key positions of the Imperial public service systems are all required to be a graduate of Scholam . right?

Not sure if it's *every* high-ranking bureaucrat.... there's a butt-load of such people in the Administratum, after all... but, basically, if you have a Schola Progenium background, a very small number of you will be Commissars, slightly more of you will become Stormtroopers, a distressingly tiny number of the girls will become Sororitas, and all the rest become Administratum clerks or members of the Ecclesiarchy.

ETA: And maybe like 1 in a million will become the apprentice to an Inquisitor.

I thought I read somewhere that failed Commissars are shunted into stormtroopers? If they are train in the Schola Progenium that seems likely?

Yeah, basically. If someone fails Commissariat training, they're pushed into Stormtrooper training. I don't think anyone fails that and survives.

Psienesis wrote:Stormtroopers are not Ecclesiarchy students, the Scholam system isn't strictly a religious organization, although it does educate girls who will ultimately become Sisters of Battle. It also instructs students of both genders who will become Commissars, Administratum clerks, scribes, and various functionaries, as well as the Stormtrooper regiments. It's more like a combination military academy/religious school that's run by a mix of priests, Drill-Abbots, semi-retired Commissars and other such worthies.

The Schola is paid for, maintained by and run by the Ecclesiarchy. Students go everywhere but they all start with the same religious origins.
Stormtroopers though are not part of the Ecclesiarchy and the church has no real pull over them.
The Schola is like going to a Catholic Uni, you don't have to get a job in the church (Not that Schola students really get that choice. ).

Meanwhile, I wish I could remember the source but once a rough break down of the % of students future carers was given.
About a fifth of all female students are fed into Sisterhood training. Of that, roughly half of them go into Sister Militant training with the remaining half fed into non-militant orders at roughly equal measures.
Sisters get the third biggest share of all students of the Schola. The first being Admin and second being general church priests, laypeople etc...

This would be another case of GW's numbers not lining up. If the Orders Militant get a tenth of the women in the Schola Progenium, there'd be a hell of a lot more Sisters of Battle than we're told there are.

GW really only covers the major orders. There are many scores worth of Orders Minoris which might go a fair way in making up the inconsistencies.

True, but of those Orders Minor, many of them (most?) number like a dozen to a few score Sisters. It's been stated in a few places that the total number of the Adeptus Sororitas is less than the total number of Space Marines who are like, what, a million strong, give or take?

In a place the size of the Imperium.... that's not a lot of nuns with guns.

Really wish GW would get it's sheep together on some of these issues...

PresidentOfAsia wrote:Do all stormtroopers(Schola Progenium) have to wear the same kind of carapace armor?

"Carapace" is only a name for a class of armor better than flak. Just like modern-day body armors it can vary depending on where it was manufactured and how much you're willing to spend. Some have better flexible fabrics under the plates, others might have to use thicker plates to begin with to reach the required protection levels. The Cadian pattern is pretty common and probably seen as desirable but surely not the only sort in use. The model ranges available are really the only thing that limits how it looks.

The only ones that really would have "standard" armor are Sisters of Battle - wouldn't do to have anyone except leaders stand out (pride is bad) and the Ecchlesiarchy has the money to order new suits at the exact specifications they require.

Klogger wrote:I thought I read somewhere that failed Commissars are shunted into stormtroopers? If they are train in the Schola Progenium that seems likely?

No, its more like the exceptional Stormtrooper candidates get promoted to Commissar school. and if they fail there they simply become Stormtrooper officers.

No, Klogger is correct. Stormtroopers remain Stormtroopers. Those who lack the ability to become Commissars might be sent to Stormtrooper training.

Read the bit here under "Commissar Training Squads":
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Commissar#.T3jGqtVCj8k

PresidentOfAsia wrote:Do all stormtroopers(Schola Progenium) have to wear the same kind of carapace armor?

Doubt it. I don't think there's a mandatory battlefield kit, but rather they kit themselves out in whatever best suits the assignment. Their carapace armour is simply a standard issue they get access to because of their elite training and function. Their uniforms are probably more standardised compared to regular IG regiments, mind (think of Cadian, Catachan, Tanith, Steel Legion, etc)

Are there ones(again Schola Progenium) that wear the same armor as the Kasrkins or perhaps different patterns of carapace?

Yes, and yes. Like I said, I doubt there's a single mandatory design or anything. For example, the ST models appear to have helmets, cuirass and perhaps elbow and knee pads, worn over fatigues. Whereas the Kasrkin appear to sport the "full armour", with all-body carapace plating. The mission most probably dictates what they wear, STs and Kasrkin both.

A bit off topic: Since Stormtroopers are raised in a Adeptus Ministorum environment, are they themselves part of the Ecclesiarchy as well?

No, I don't think so. While the Ecclesiarchy run the schools and academies, giving all students a very heavy dose of Imperial Cult indoctrination, once graduates are selected and trained as STs, they are soldiers of the Imperial Guard, no doubt under the jurisdiction of the DM.

Psienesis wrote:True, but of those Orders Minor, many of them (most?) number like a dozen to a few score Sisters. It's been stated in a few places that the total number of the Adeptus Sororitas is less than the total number of Space Marines who are like, what, a million strong, give or take?

In a place the size of the Imperium.... that's not a lot of nuns with guns.

I'm not sure about the less then Marines part but a Minor Militant order is said to be around the 1000 mark.

A mission, the smallest formal organisation of Sisters of Battle, viewed as a skirmish, scouting and reconnaissance force, is a 1000pt to 2000pt tabletop army.

More info here:
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Adepta_Sororitas#Organisation

That article says nothing of the kind. I'm not sure where you're getting that a Minor Order is 1000 Sisters. It does mention that a Preceptory has 1000 Sisters, "making it equivalent to a Space Marine Chapter"... but a SM Chapter can be many thousands of Marines strong... they haven't been hard-capped at 1,000 Marines for years now, a Minor Order might not hold its own Preceptory.

That article says only this about Minor Orders:

Orders Minoris: Besides these famous major Orders there is also an unknown number of Minor Orders whose functions are widely unknown. Imperial records speak of the Order of the Eternal Gate whose responsibility is the retrieval of ancient or dangerous relics and artefacts for the Ecclesiarchy. Also known to exist is the Order of the White Rose whose actual function remains a complete mystery. This Order split away from the Order of the Sacred Rose in the latter part of the 39th Millennium.

Psienesis wrote:... but a SM Chapter can be many thousands of Marines strong... they haven't been hard-capped at 1,000 Marines for years now

Huh? Pretty sure the Codex Astartes number is 1000, making those few with greater numbers the exception to the rule... unless the SM fluff has suddenly undergone a radical change I'm unaware of...

Its still 1000 marines, however its a soft cap if there ever was one. Completely unenforcable and many chapters simply ignore it.

That might be "by the book" but I don't think even Codex-adherent Chapters are following it anymore.

BT have, what, 8000?
SW 6000?

Aren't even the UM fielding something like 5-6k? And they're the most Codex-following of all the Chapters.

BT are codex followers in name only. They really arn't.

The Space Wolves never have and never will follow the codex. They openly piss on Gulliman's grave and use the Codex as toilet paper.

The Smurfs themselves definitly only have ~1000 marines as do the majority of chapters.

Grey Templar wrote:Its still 1000 marines, however its a soft cap if there ever was one. Completely unenforcable and many chapters simply ignore it.

Do they, though? Is the Codex doctrine now the exception, and not the rule? First I've heard of it.

Psienesis wrote:That might be "by the book" but I don't think even Codex-adherent Chapters are following it anymore.

BT have, what, 8000?
SW 6000?

Two Chapters who are completely un-Codex in their doctrines, only enforcing my earlier notion that they are exceptions.

Aren't even the UM fielding something like 5-6k?

Like I said, it's the first I've heard of it. But that sounds really, really off the mark. Do you have a source?

Following the codex is definitly the norm, although most chapters do have some minor deviations.

Psienesis wrote:That article says nothing of the kind. I'm not sure where you're getting that a Minor Order is 1000 Sisters. It does mention that a Preceptory has 1000 Sisters, "making it equivalent to a Space Marine Chapter"... but a SM Chapter can be many thousands of Marines strong... they haven't been hard-capped at 1,000 Marines for years now, a Minor Order might not hold its own Preceptory.

That article says only this about Minor Orders:

Orders Minoris: Besides these famous major Orders there is also an unknown number of Minor Orders whose functions are widely unknown. Imperial records speak of the Order of the Eternal Gate whose responsibility is the retrieval of ancient or dangerous relics and artefacts for the Ecclesiarchy. Also known to exist is the Order of the White Rose whose actual function remains a complete mystery. This Order split away from the Order of the Sacred Rose in the latter part of the 39th Millennium.

Hmm... I should have fully read the article first. Egad that's old fluff and cherry-picking.

Well first, there is the Orders Militant and Orders Non-Militant. Both of them have countless minor orders. Militant Minor Orders will always be Militant Orders. Not this 'dunno lol'. I think that quote you gave was clipped from some pre-codex witch hunters article.
Orders Minoris as currently known are expanded on in both Inquisitors Handbook and Blood of Martyrs, Dark Heresy Splatbooks. Militant Minor Orders will normally number up to a Preceptory or two. it's common to have the major shrines of a sector guarded each by their own Minor Order who form the Guards, Localised Military and upkeep personal for the building itself. (well except for the Calixis Sector where when GW was still writing it they thought fifty sisters on a single, isolated and uninhabited atmosphere-less moon was a Massive Force. FFG has done a lot to fix this major case of bullS design)

Meanwhile Non-militant Orders Minoris typically number a few Commanderies at the most. They have duties from Medical Staff (Best in the Imperium) to Translators, mathmagicians (Not a typo) Assassins, Church-Internalised CSI, Spy Nannies that end up controlling the most powerful families in the Imperium, Teachers and professors, Indiana Croft and Lara Jones styled Archaeologists, Soul Purifying and Wound Healing Choirs etc... etc... Some (Most) of these different non-militant orders only need to be a Commandery big all up.

As far as I'm aware, if there is a Cap on Order Sizes it'd be 10,000 ladies but I don't think such cap exists.
None the less, Force Stockpiling isn't an option in the war torn Imperium.

As for Marines;
Only three Chapters are known to break the 1000 unit cap by any large margin, Black Templar who were an intentional flaunting of the rules but still all are broken up into different Crusades each of which are less then 1000 marines strong. Essentially making them little more then several Sister Chapters with the same name and colours.
Space Wolves who agreed to rename them selves from legion to Chapter but that's basically all they ever did.
And Gray Knights, who are a different ball game altogether.

Otherwise I think the worse any single chapter breaks the unit cap is by maybe a hundred or so?

Grey Knights used to have around 3,000, the Ward Codex revised that down to 800. Most Chapters tend to stay within a hundred or so of the 1,000-man cap.

The Adeptas Sororitas are much less strict on numbers, and even if there's a cap on the number of Sisters in one of the major Orders there's no canonical cap on the number of Orders.

Also, on the subject of the Grey Knights, where do you suppose the other 2,200 went when the Codex was revised? Was it a simple retcon, or might there be a darker explanation? A political schism within the Inquisition, perhaps?

AnomanderRake wrote:The Adeptas Sororitas are much less strict on numbers, and even if there's a cap on the number of Sisters in one of the major Orders

There isn't.

AnomanderRake wrote:Grey Knights used to have around 3,000, the Ward Codex revised that down to 800. Most Chapters tend to stay within a hundred or so of the 1,000-man cap.

The Adeptas Sororitas are much less strict on numbers, and even if there's a cap on the number of Sisters in one of the major Orders there's no canonical cap on the number of Orders.

Also, on the subject of the Grey Knights, where do you suppose the other 2,200 went when the Codex was revised? Was it a simple retcon, or might there be a darker explanation? A political schism within the Inquisition, perhaps?

Simple wardian retcon I'm afraid :(

PresidentOfAsia wrote:Do all stormtroopers(Schola Progenium) have to wear the same kind of carapace armor?

No. Mainly because what Carapace is can vary from world to world or sector to sector. Not everyone makes it the same way or even from the same materials or the same levels of protection. Krieg grenadiers vs Kasrkin are one obvious example.

Are there ones(again Schola Progenium) that wear the same armor as the Kasrkins or perhaps different patterns of carapace?

Unknown. Supposeldy some sources (like the Muinitorum manual and I think one of the codexes for the guard, although which edition I don't recall) said that Cadians equipment (including armour and uniform) are duplicated by other regiments across the galaxy (we know of at least some examples) - it's possible that this extends to the gear the Kasrkin have.

A bit off topic: Since Stormtroopers are raised in a Adeptus Ministorum environment, are they themselves part of the Ecclesiarchy as well?

No, that would violate the Decree Passive. Maybe former stormtroopers could serve as part of frater militia but that would be the closest you'd get I think.