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So this came up this evening:
Necron Player wishes to move his skimmer, measures 12, cannot move where he wants to go and does not move.

I was curious as to if this was the models move, of zero, if he chose not to move it, so I looked the rule up in the book.

It states you can measure your move and then choose to measure somewhere else or not move at all. My question is however, what happens if I measure the move of my tactical squad 6 and then choose not to move them? What happens if through that measurement of movement I could clearly deduce that I'd be in multi-melta range without moving? Curious how this works, I'd think the squad would be considered as 'moving' even if it did not because of the measure and thus could not fire it's heavy weapon. If it can indeed still fire it's weapon then awesome-sauce for abuse of 'movement pre-measure.'

If you measure the move and don't move, then the unit has not moved. The only exception is if you roll for difficult terrain and then choose not to move, in that instance the unit counts as moving.

There are many ways of premeasuring without actually premeasuring. Which is why, in my opinion, not being allowed to premeasure is right up there in the list of most stupid rules in the book.

Yes, you are allowed to measure and then decide not to move.

Grey Templar wrote:Yes, you are allowed to measure and then decide not to move.

Which could allow you to say, park a skimmer behind your troops, measure to the enemy from the skimmer for a possible flat out move (verifying the range to the enemy) then deciding not to move the skimmer after all.

And I am neither advocating this tactic nor have I ever done so, just throwing it out here as something to watch out for.

The problem is that your opponent could be making the measurement as a legitimate move consideration, or checking the range. There's no real way to be 100% sure.

That can be a problem similar to shooting a skimmer or tank over troops to check and see if they can shoot or assault this turn.
I have told a guy in my club he is taking the piss quite a lot when I see him play. He is a noob and using our spare army but when I played him the other week I kept having to tell him things like in the shooting phase "you have measured range to that unit from your devastators so you are firing at them now".

liturgies of blood wrote:I have told a guy in my club he is taking the piss quite a lot when I see him play. He is a noob and using our spare army but when I played him the other week I kept having to tell him things like in the shooting phase "you have measured range to that unit from your devastators so you are firing at them now".

A lot of players, not just noobs, are very unsure if their shots will land in range. Rather than just accept the occasional missed shot (like when I placed the large blast marker from my vindicator 1/4" too far! ) they will try every trick in the book to be sure of the distance before declaring shots.

But yes, if you measure range from a unit to a target, you must fire at them. But if this gives you the range for another unit, then that is okay. Weird I know. but that's the way it is.

Thanks everyone.

Jstncloud wrote:Thanks everyone, I am thinking in our group we will likely house rule that a measured move will count as 'moving' to prevent the issues presented above.

It's something to discuss to hash out the pros and cons.

It will stop some abuses, but it also will make parts of the game a bit more difficult.

Suppose I have a unit between 2 pieces of terrain. I want to get into the terrain. I measure the distance to the first only to find I am 6 1/8" from it. I should still be able to measure to the other to see if I am within 6" and have a chance to get into that one.

TBH, I haven't found this rule to be abused in games that I play. It's sometimes a good tool, and being able to measure without being forced to move is helpful to new players.

time wizard wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:Thanks everyone, I am thinking in our group we will likely house rule that a measured move will count as 'moving' to prevent the issues presented above.

It's something to discuss to hash out the pros and cons.

It will stop some abuses, but it also will make parts of the game a bit more difficult.

Suppose I have a unit between 2 pieces of terrain. I want to get into the terrain. I measure the distance to the first only to find I am 6 1/8" from it. I should still be able to measure to the other to see if I am within 6" and have a chance to get into that one.

TBH, I haven't found this rule to be abused in games that I play. It's sometimes a good tool, and being able to measure without being forced to move is helpful to new players.

I wouldn't care if you changed where you were moving to, no problem, my issue is if you are actually measuring movement with no intent to really move but rather to set up assaults and shooting with that measured distance, just seems unfair. Again though if you measured one distance and then wanted to go somewhere else, no problem, just think it is uncool to measure your landraiders 12 inch move, find out an enemy is exactly 12 away so you 'already know' your multi-melta is in range and because of that fact choose not to move. You cannot really 'know' every time someone does this, but there can be times when it really stands out.

Jstncloud wrote:I wouldn't care if you changed where you were moving to, no problem, my issue is if you are actually measuring movement with no intent to really move but rather to set up assaults and shooting with that measured distance, just seems unfair.

Well again, and this might be just me, I don't have a problem with someone measuring a distance, within the rules, and moving somewhere else, or not moving at all, no matter if their intent is to check an assault distance or a move/run/assault distance. Just not a game breaker as I see it.

Plus, if my opponent does it, I can too!

Say I'm some distance away from an ork trukk with some boyz embarked. I know the ork player can call a Waaagh and move the trukk, run the boyz and assault, giving them a potential 26" assault range.

Now I want to make absolutely sure that my raider is safe from this. I am allowed to measure towards the trukk for a possible 24" flat out move. I find that I can move flat out towards them, but if I move 3" back, I will be out of the ork's maximum range. So I elect to move back 3".

Now I'm sure some people will call this cheesy or borderline cheating, but I think it is within the rules, and I would have now problem with my opponent using the same strategy against me.

I really don't think it's as big an issue as you might think. Most of the time, the range isn't critical enough to make that much difference anyway.

But again, this is really my opinion, and we know what they say about opinions!

But according to RAW, you are perfectly legal in measuring one direction, changing your mind, and moving somewhere else or even not at all!

RAW you are sorted to do that with the raider, but I will call you a completed tool for doing it. And try to charge you out of spite :p

With the measuring over or parallel to a unit for purposes of checking your shooting range on other units, I don't mind, it's being clever within the rules. I just REALLY mind when people try to actually cheat.

liturgies of blood wrote:RAW you are sorted to do that with the raider, but I will call you a completed tool for doing it. And try to charge you out of spite :p

With the measuring over or parallel to a unit for purposes of checking your shooting range on other units, I don't mind, it's being clever within the rules. I just REALLY mind when people try to actually cheat.

I would definitely not like somebody do it, but I can't bring myself to criticize as he is following the rules. (except maybe the most important rule)

liturgies of blood wrote:RAW you are sorted to do that with the raider, but I will call you a completed tool for doing it. And try to charge you out of spite :p

With the measuring over or parallel to a unit for purposes of checking your shooting range on other units, I don't mind, it's being clever within the rules. I just REALLY mind when people try to actually cheat.

The rules as present allow it, and I'm not going to call someone a tool for using the rules as they are presently written.

When I learned to play the game premeasuring movement was implicitly forbidden, and the local convention in my group was explicit- "you measure, you move". I did occasionally run into guys (especially at tournaments in other areas) who were more loose about it, and would premeasure a bit, or swing out the tape measure and then change their mind. It drove me CRAZY, as we were so strict and I saw it as cheating. When 5th explicitly sanctioned it, I was actually relieved, because I could relax and quit arguing it.

time wizard wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:I wouldn't care if you changed where you were moving to, no problem, my issue is if you are actually measuring movement with no intent to really move but rather to set up assaults and shooting with that measured distance, just seems unfair.

Well again, and this might be just me, I don't have a problem with someone measuring a distance, within the rules, and moving somewhere else, or not moving at all, no matter if their intent is to check an assault distance or a move/run/assault distance. Just not a game breaker as I see it.

Plus, if my opponent does it, I can too!

Say I'm some distance away from an ork trukk with some boyz embarked. I know the ork player can call a Waaagh and move the trukk, run the boyz and assault, giving them a potential 26" assault range.

Now I want to make absolutely sure that my raider is safe from this. I am allowed to measure towards the trukk for a possible 24" flat out move. I find that I can move flat out towards them, but if I move 3" back, I will be out of the ork's maximum range. So I elect to move back 3".

Now I'm sure some people will call this cheesy or borderline cheating, but I think it is within the rules, and I would have now problem with my opponent using the same strategy against me.

I really don't think it's as big an issue as you might think. Most of the time, the range isn't critical enough to make that much difference anyway.

But again, this is really my opinion, and we know what they say about opinions!

But according to RAW, you are perfectly legal in measuring one direction, changing your mind, and moving somewhere else or even not at all!

I know that measuring the move and then changing direction or deciding not the move is fine RAW-wise, but i'm wondering about the legality of measuring 24" and moving 3".

I was told that I could not measure 24" with my serpent to see if I was in range to get a solid ram and then elect to move less if I was not in range.

It'd be handy to know your argument for measuring 24" and moving 3", because currently I can only find the line in the RB that states I can measure and change direction or decide not to move at all, but nothing saying that I can choose to move less than what I measured.

I was joking, if I did call someone a tool it would be good natured ribbing. You may notice from the ":p" at the end of the first line what I meant.

TBH I learned the same way so I got very good at judging distances, I rarely have to do much more then take a look.

LoB:

Avatar: The same line that says you can choose not to move at all says you can change your mind about which way to move.

Rams and Tank Shocks are two exceptions.

The process for performing tank shock specifically says you have to pivot and declare the distance moved. If you could pre-measure, declaring the distance would be meaningless.

The ramming rules are a sub-set of tank shocking which require you to move as fast as possible. So again, I believe you can't premeasure.

Mannahnin wrote:
The ramming rules are a sub-set of tank shocking which require you to move as fast as possible. So again, I believe you can't premeasure.

Exactly. Also because tank shock is done "instead of moving normally" and ramming is a special tank shock move.

@Avatar - Measuring and moving this way is just one of the "tricks" that I've learned.

Here's another. You are going to fire at my unit with a missile launcher. My unit is well within 48", but my unit is armed with weapons with a 24" range.

I ask you to measure the range, which you do, announcing it to be 28". I now know that I only have to move 4" to get my weapons within range.

Perfectly legal, and IMHP a good tactic to make sure you have the range you need.

I understand your stance, but my point is that some tactics, like measuring in one direction then moving another, might seem to be cheating or cheesy or being a tool when looked at first glance.

But if you think about it, it is a legal tactic, and is one that you might use yourself in a game.

Even the military use rangefinders after all!

Fun tip - you can measure Flat Out to the FULL DISTANCE in any direction you like, without having to move. You do have to move Flat Out if you declare it, but you can still sit still. Either way it's easy as hell to work out the ranges to enemy units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

time wizard wrote:
I ask you to measure the range, which you do, announcing it to be 28". I now know that I only have to move 4" to get my weapons within range.

"Is it in range?"
"Yes, it is".
Your opponent must be pretty dim to announce the range on everything he measures to you.

Joey wrote:
Your opponent must be pretty dim to announce the range on everything he measures to you.

Not necessarily, I can see the tape as well!

Joey wrote:Fun tip - you can measure Flat Out to the FULL DISTANCE in any direction you like, without having to move. You do have to move Flat Out if you declare it, but you can still sit still. Either way it's easy as hell to work out the ranges to enemy units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

time wizard wrote:
I ask you to measure the range, which you do, announcing it to be 28". I now know that I only have to move 4" to get my weapons within range.

"Is it in range?"
"Yes, it is".
Your opponent must be pretty dim to announce the range on everything he measures to you.

The rule book states if you move flat out you go 13-18 (unless you are a skimmer). Would seem that if declaring a flat out means you 'have to flat out' that you'd also 'have to move the minimum' to have moved flat out, otherwise, you declared it and did not fulfill it's restrictions.

Jstncloud wrote:The rule book states if you move flat out you go 13-18 (unless you are a skimmer). Would seem that if declaring a flat out means you 'have to flat out' that you'd also 'have to move the minimum' to have moved flat out, otherwise, you declared it and did not fulfill it's restrictions.

You could declare you are going to move flat out, and then not do it.

Say I have a trukk. I say, "I'm going to move flat out 15" in that direction.", I measure the distance and direction, but I don't move it yet.

I then disembark the unit of boys that were in the trukk. I move the boys.

I then go to move the trukk 15", except I can't because I disembarked a unit, so I can only move up to 12" (13 with RPJ). So now I measure out 12" and move the trukk.

It isn't until you actually make the move that the die is cast, as it were, with the notable exception of rolling for a difficult terrain test. Then you count as moving whether you move or not.

time wizard wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:The rule book states if you move flat out you go 13-18 (unless you are a skimmer). Would seem that if declaring a flat out means you 'have to flat out' that you'd also 'have to move the minimum' to have moved flat out, otherwise, you declared it and did not fulfill it's restrictions.

You could declare you are going to move flat out, and then not do it.

Say I have a trukk. I say, "I'm going to move flat out 15" in that direction.", I measure the distance and direction, but I don't move it yet.

I then disembark the unit of boys that were in the trukk. I move the boys.

This breaks rules by two different ways. First:

BRB, pg 70 Fast transport Vehicles wrote: "Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase."

You're going to move flat-out that movement phase -> no disembarking.

Second, the moment you chose to start measuring movement from the Trukk (Unit A) is the moment you're disallowed from disembarking troops from it (Unit B), until you've completed the Trukks (Unit A) move.

BRB, page 11 wrote: Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit. You may not go back and change the move already made by a previous unit

time wizard wrote:
I then go to move the trukk 15", except I can't because I disembarked a unit, so I can only move up to 12" (13 with RPJ). So now I measure out 12" and move the trukk.
[

Because of the reasons given above, you obviously cannot do this.

time wizard wrote:
It isn't until you actually make the move that the die is cast, as it were, with the notable exception of rolling for a difficult terrain test. Then you count as moving whether you move or not.

Actually, the die is cast when you choose the unit, which you have implicitly done by measuring from it. The moment you do that, you're committed to either A) moving that unit or B) stating that the unit will not move this movement phase. Those are your only options.

Luide wrote:Actually, the die is cast when you choose the unit, which you have implicitly done by measuring from it. The moment you do that, you're committed to either A) moving that unit or B) stating that the unit will not move this movement phase. Those are your only options.

There is nothing in the rules to support this.

The rule only states that once I start moving a unit, I have to finish its move before I go on to move another unit.

Measuring a unit's move does not equal moving it. Granted, you usually choose a model, measure and move it, then go on to another, but there is nothing in the rules preventing you from measuring a distance from one unit, then measuring a distance from another unit, then moving the first unit.

What's to stop me from looking at a unit on the table, saying "I'm going to move them forward." then looking at another unit and saying, "First though, I'm going to move this unit to get them out of the other unit's way." Nothing.

A unit doesn't begin moving until you physically pick up the models and move them, or roll for a difficult terrain test for the unit.

The rule says that models can't disembark from a transport that moved or is going to move flat out to make it clear that you can't disembark from a fast transport and then move it flat out.

Nowhere in the rules does declaring how you intend to move a unit, or saying how you might move it equate to actually moving the unit.

time wizard wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:The rule book states if you move flat out you go 13-18 (unless you are a skimmer). Would seem that if declaring a flat out means you 'have to flat out' that you'd also 'have to move the minimum' to have moved flat out, otherwise, you declared it and did not fulfill it's restrictions.

You could declare you are going to move flat out, and then not do it.

Say I have a trukk. I say, "I'm going to move flat out 15" in that direction.", I measure the distance and direction, but I don't move it yet.

I then disembark the unit of boys that were in the trukk. I move the boys.

I then go to move the trukk 15", except I can't because I disembarked a unit, so I can only move up to 12" (13 with RPJ). So now I measure out 12" and move the trukk.

It isn't until you actually make the move that the die is cast, as it were, with the notable exception of rolling for a difficult terrain test. Then you count as moving whether you move or not.

In that case it seems you'd be declaring a flat out move simply to check ranges then rather than to actually move, which seems a bit 'lame' honestly. In every other case I understand, but a Flat Out (as I see it) is a special move, if you measure your 12 move and find it does not get you where you want to be and then declare a flat out move to go 13+ then I am fine (so long as you are actually moving as you have 'declared' the special move), however I'd be kind of irritated if you went "Hey I am a necron, Hmmm FLAT OUT!" *you then measure 36 inches with their skimmer and deduce that you no longer wish to go flat out* "Hey I know your shizz is in range now, I think I'll stay put and shoot." Seems to go against the nature of the game, you are pre-measuring ranges in the movement phase under the mask of a move that you never intended to make.

I admit there is no real way to enforce fair movements, but if you pulled a stunt like the above on me I can honestly say I have other people I'd rather play with than those who would exploit the movement measure to that extent. And again, in small instances I see the applications, IE I measure my 6 inch move and don't want to take it, ok cool, now you have some idea of where things are, but flat out is way beyond that scale.

Luide wrote:

time wizard wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:The rule book states if you move flat out you go 13-18 (unless you are a skimmer). Would seem that if declaring a flat out means you 'have to flat out' that you'd also 'have to move the minimum' to have moved flat out, otherwise, you declared it and did not fulfill it's restrictions.

You could declare you are going to move flat out, and then not do it.

Say I have a trukk. I say, "I'm going to move flat out 15" in that direction.", I measure the distance and direction, but I don't move it yet.

I then disembark the unit of boys that were in the trukk. I move the boys.

If you do this, you're cheating. By two different ways. First:

BRB, pg 70 Fast transport Vehicles wrote: "Passengers may not embark onto or disembark from a fast vehicle if it has moved (or is going to move) flat out in that Movement phase."

You're going to move flat-out that movement phase -> no disembarking.

Second, the moment you chose to start measuring movement from the Trukk (Unit A) is the moment you're disallowed from disembarking troops from it (Unit B), until you've completed the Trukks (Unit A) move.

BRB, page 11 wrote: Once you have started moving a unit, you must finish its move before you start to move another unit. You may not go back and change the move already made by a previous unit

time wizard wrote:
I then go to move the trukk 15", except I can't because I disembarked a unit, so I can only move up to 12" (13 with RPJ). So now I measure out 12" and move the trukk.
[

Because of the reasons given above, you obviously cannot do this.

time wizard wrote:
It isn't until you actually make the move that the die is cast, as it were, with the notable exception of rolling for a difficult terrain test. Then you count as moving whether you move or not.

Actually, the die is cast when you choose the unit, which you have implicitly done by measuring from it. The moment you do that, you're committed to either A) moving that unit or B) stating that the unit will not move this movement phase. Those are your only options.

I'd also agree with the above, once you 'declare flat out' you've declared your 'intent' to use it and thus cannot disembark. Play it the way 'you' want but that seems the most practical.

time wizard wrote:

Luide wrote:Actually, the die is cast when you choose the unit, which you have implicitly done by measuring from it. The moment you do that, you're committed to either A) moving that unit or B) stating that the unit will not move this movement phase. Those are your only options.

There is nothing in the rules to support this.

The rule only states that once I start moving a unit, I have to finish its move before I go on to move another unit.

Measuring a unit's move does not equal moving it. Granted, you usually choose a model, measure and move it, then go on to another, but there is nothing in the rules preventing you from measuring a distance from one unit, then measuring a distance from another unit, then moving the first unit.

What's to stop me from looking at a unit on the table, saying "I'm going to move them forward." then looking at another unit and saying, "First though, I'm going to move this unit to get them out of the other unit's way." Nothing.

A unit doesn't begin moving until you physically pick up the models and move them, or roll for a difficult terrain test for the unit.

The rule says that models can't disembark from a transport that moved or is going to move flat out to make it clear that you can't disembark from a fast transport and then move it flat out.

Nowhere in the rules does declaring how you intend to move a unit, or saying how you might move it equate to actually moving the unit.

Declaring sounds an awful lot like "Is going to move..."

"I am going to go to the store today." I've declared I am going to the store and "is going to the store." Same as above "I am going to move this flat out" declared, which under the rules for Flat Out "or is going to move." Pretty much the same thing. If you could declare it and then not use it why even have the "or is going to move" in the line of the rules.

Jstncloud wrote:Declaring sounds an awful lot like "Is going to move..."

"I am going to go to the store today." I've declared I am going to the store and "is going to the store." Same as above "I am going to move this flat out" declared, which under the rules for Flat Out "or is going to move." Pretty much the same thing. If you could declare it and then not use it why even have the "or is going to move" in the line of the rules.

Declaring might sound like "is going to" but they really aren't one in the same.
I could say "I'm going to the store today." then change my mind and go tomorrow.
I might even look at a map today to see how far away the store is. Doesn't mean I must go there today.

There is nothing stopping me from saying "I intend to move my raider flat out 24" that way." and measure it.
Then decide to move my other units first.
Then change my mind and decide not to move the raider flat out after all.
I haven't broken any rule.

I'm just throwing out the rule here. I agree that to measure a move just to obtain a range for shooting is a lame move. I neither condone nor practice such a tactic.
But my point is that proving it is very difficult.
If I was against someone who was measuring a "great circle" around each of their units in their movement phase, then not moving any units that were found to be within shooting range, I would probably say something like "I know you can measure from a unit in the movement phase then change your mind, but if you want to pre-measure all your units, why don't we agree to do so in every phase?"

Bottom line Jstncloud is I agree with your opinion that it is an unsporting misuse of the rules, but it is, stricktly speaking, quite legal.

I agree. Let's think about the Necron CCB. It's within rules to check range to see which vehicles you can move over to use sweep attacks and at which distance. And if I can do it then of course I am going to let my opponent do the same thing.

time wizard wrote:

Jstncloud wrote:Declaring sounds an awful lot like "Is going to move..."

"I am going to go to the store today." I've declared I am going to the store and "is going to the store." Same as above "I am going to move this flat out" declared, which under the rules for Flat Out "or is going to move." Pretty much the same thing. If you could declare it and then not use it why even have the "or is going to move" in the line of the rules.

Declaring might sound like "is going to" but they really aren't one in the same.
I could say "I'm going to the store today." then change my mind and go tomorrow.
I might even look at a map today to see how far away the store is. Doesn't mean I must go there today.

There is nothing stopping me from saying "I intend to move my raider flat out 24" that way." and measure it.
Then decide to move my other units first.
Then change my mind and decide not to move the raider flat out after all.
I haven't broken any rule.

I'm just throwing out the rule here. I agree that to measure a move just to obtain a range for shooting is a lame move. I neither condone nor practice such a tactic.
But my point is that proving it is very difficult.
If I was against someone who was measuring a "great circle" around each of their units in their movement phase, then not moving any units that were found to be within shooting range, I would probably say something like "I know you can measure from a unit in the movement phase then change your mind, but if you want to pre-measure all your units, why don't we agree to do so in every phase?"

Bottom line Jstncloud is I agree with your opinion that it is an unsporting misuse of the rules, but it is, stricktly speaking, quite legal.

Then why does the book have the restriction "...or is going..." in regards to Flat Out? If you declare you are going to do it you cannot disembark but you can then un-declare it? That makes no sense. I suppose I am lucky in the sense that the people I play with do not try to stunts we've presented, not worth playing with them if they abuse it in extreme circumstances.

copper.talos wrote:I agree. Let's think about the Necron CCB. It's within rules to check range to see which vehicles you can move over to use sweep attacks and at which distance. And if I can do it then of course I am going to let my opponent do the same thing.

As for the Necrons, if you are checking because it lets you do something, like the sweep attacks sure, but if you are simply measuring your 36 flat out on one of your skimmers, swing the tape over the board, and then go "I'm not going to move, I am in range to shoot something" you've obviously pulled a cheese move.

Other note, I didn't know the necron catacomb barge could flat out and sweeping attack, thought it was a normal move (then again I've only been up against it once).

Jstncloud wrote:
As for the Necrons, if you are checking because it lets you do something, like the sweep attacks sure, but if you are simply measuring your 36 flat out on one of your skimmers, swing the tape over the board, and then go "I'm not going to move, I am in range to shoot something" you've obviously pulled a cheese move.

I haven't thought of this. Yes that is cheesy.

Jstncloud wrote:Then why does the book have the restriction "...or is going..." in regards to Flat Out?

To make it clear that if you have a transport with troops inside, you cannot;

Move the transport flat out and then disembark troops.

Disembark the troops and then move flat out.