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In games against races such as Tau or Orks is there much advantage gained by taking a Mark of Slaanesh?? - after all the int of these races is below the CSM norm...
I know that fast attack choices are advised against but I was wondering whether it would be fun to take a small squad of bikers totting around a mark of khorne to bring down some terminators with mark of khorne
Mainly because they have a long enough charge range to nip in and hit an ork boyz squad before they waaaaagh! and also if they jump round cover then Tau gun line won't have much defense... - then all they need to do is survive until something else reaches the frontline with a mark or the terminators arrive from deepstrike

On another note, How often do ork battlewagons tend to appear in 1000-1500 point lists??
I'm wondering because my list currently consists of mostly infantry but it would be cheaper to take a las pred than lascannon havocs - although oblits might be a better option than either of these....

I'm not an expert in CSM, but a guy I know does something very similar - he uses icons to bring in lesser demons (I think?) because they can assult on the same round they appear.

In terms of Battlewagons in 1000-1500 points; I would imagine I'm not the only one that fields more than 1 - I try for 3 if possible by using proxys usually, more if I can fit it in my list...

Hope that helps!!!

Usually you would find no more than two battlewagons in 1000-1500 points. It is possible to cram four into 1500 points, but those armies tend to have other glaring weaknesses.

If your infantry brings a powerfist or a bunch of krak grenades, battlewagons would also be pretty easy to take down in combat. Melta bombs are pretty much gambling, as you need 6s to hit and then sscore a meaningful damage result. I'm not scared of melta bombs at all.

As for I5 vs orks, keep in mind that nobz strike at I4 when charging(as in unit of nobz, not squad leaders), so you reduce casualties by picking the mark of slanesh.

fast attack is actually real helpful against tau, but mark of slaanesh is useless. You're better off with oblits since battlewagons are high AV you can use the multimeltas on them, which are great for exploding them...especially if open topped. Also oblits can DS in and blast some tau stuff.

Usually you would find no more than two battlewagons in 1000-1500 points.

Not to second guess you Jidmah, I find your advice helpful in the extreme - but what about target saturation? is it not folly to field 2 juicy targets when you can field more - and make your opponent choose which threat he needs to take out first?

Why multi-melta? AV14 means the MM is only going to glance unless it's within 12", and if it's within 12", that means you've got orks all over your obliterators.

Personally, I think that lascannon havocs are one of the most efficient units for stopping battlewagons at long range, as they have enough shots to counter-act the KFF and enough strength to penetrate AV14.

If a battlewagon is not open topped, you usually don't need to shoot it anyways.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kremlin wrote:

Usually you would find no more than two battlewagons in 1000-1500 points.

Not to second guess you Jidmah, I find your advice helpful in the extreme - but what about target saturation? is it not folly to field 2 juicy targets when you can field more - and make your opponent choose which threat he needs to take out first?

This is less about what you want, but rather a points limitation. A usual battlewagon transport with a deff rolla is at least 130 points. A kff is another 85, and 160 for each unit of boyz. Adding a third one will already bring you close to 1k points, and you have no real anti-transport options outside of your deff rollas. The fourth battlewagon, if it's supposed to contain anything useful, costs you more than 400 points. So it is possible to field four battlewagons at 1500, but you will have trouble fighting any sort of meched up armies, especially eldar and dark eldar, as they can dodge your deff rolla. I have found it much more useful to leave one battlewagon at home and get a bunch of lootaz, buggies and koptaz instead. Or field a kan wall, whose power reaches it's pinnacle at 1500.

I also wasn't talking about what you should field, but what I most commonly see - judging from what I see at the stores, in the army list forum, battle reports etc. Most commonly you will find a burna wagon and a nobz wagon accompanied by a couple of trukks, or worse, killa kanz.

Havocs only have at most 1 more lascannon shot than a laspred...
Yeah, but if you DS oblits beside a battlewagon the MM will take out that Battlewagon
And if they get assaulted you hope they are near their DS marker unit who will hopefully sheild them from the coming charge

I'm clueless so can someone explain why you don't need to shoot a battlewagon that isn't open-topped?

So, would a dedicated assault unit for taking out units of Nobz with a Mark of Slaanesh be a good idea??
Like terminators with MoS, lightning claws and stuff...
Also, having summoned deamons for DSing near my FA bikers etc would be good for breaking a tau gunline??

EDIT: Meltabombs are better at breaking open tanks than krak grenades... krak requires a roll of a six to glance AV 14 whereas meltabombs only need 2 3's to glance due to S8 + 2D6 = much better odds...

Generally speaking, when you use the 'ard case option on the BW it restricts the transport capacity, so it wouldn't carry anything *too* dangerous.

As I mentioned, I'm not great with CSM, but if you are going to run some termies with MoS toward a nobs unit, just be sure to get the charge. They have a Str 4, T 4, and 2 W - on the charge they're hitting with Str 5 and if they're using Big Choppa's your looking at 3x Str 7 hits per model.
I think most people are of the opinion that it is better to knock through their 2 wounds fast to stop the return attack - and if you can ID them then it's a good thing.

Give it a try with and without the MoS - Have a few practice runs on your own, and make note of which group performs better. If I was to suggest a Nobz squad to run your termies against - try this;

7 Nobz 245
Doc (FNP), 2x PK, 4xBC, Bosspole (reroll Ld tests, cause 1 wound)


I know it is a test in a vacuum, but if you want to see how good the MoS will do on a unit of Nobz while getting clean info on how it performed, I think it is a good start.

Battlewagons are front AV 14, which means lascannons pen on a 5. That's not great odds. However, if you DS your oblits to their rear and further away, your multimelta can hit that sweet AV 10 armor... havocs are pretty much stationary and don't have this advantage. When the melta hits, you will get +2 on the vehicle damage table (if open topped) and the wagon will probably explode, making sure to damage the orks inside.

I wouldn't rely on havocs to stop a line of battlewagons. You pretty much need sacrificial meltas, or a speedbump unit, to do the job.

most orks have Initiative 3 and furious charge, which means mark of slaanesh is effective only when you are being charged. If you are being charged by a unit of mad orks, you are probably going to die anyway... unless you are lucky with your rolls and kill like most of them before they swing. Take some plague marines too... their bolters cut into the orks and when charged, their grenades take away their extra attacks, plus their tough enough to handle it.

The way to kill them is to get the charge on them in CC, and a unit of bezerkers would do that no problem. Or, shoot them with bolters and template, which they can't take armor saves against. Once again obliterators are great because they can hit a squad of orks with their twin-linked flamers if need be, as well as take out transports.

All Orks with the exception of Nobz actually are Initiative 2. The only unit in the Codex with initiative 3 is Nobz, and they only have I4 on the charge. And even then, Nobz are usually more reliant on Power Klaws, which strike at I1, to kill MEQs. So for the most part I5 would be irrelevant against Orks.

Even Warbosses, which have I4 and therefore could conceivably make MoS relevant, almost always take Power Klaws, and most Ork ICs already have PKs. Slaanesh simply doesn't matter against Orks.

Kremlin, ard case does not actually restrict transport space, you're thinking of a killkannon. The reason you would ignore them is because when you add ard case, the orks can't assault out of the vehicle. So, they would just get out and shoot, then get shot at and have the charge stolen from them.

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:In games against races such as Tau or Orks is there much advantage gained by taking a Mark of Slaanesh?? - after all the int of these races is below the CSM norm...
I know that fast attack choices are advised against but I was wondering whether it would be fun to take a small squad of bikers totting around a mark of khorne to bring down some terminators with mark of khorne
Mainly because they have a long enough charge range to nip in and hit an ork boyz squad before they waaaaagh! and also if they jump round cover then Tau gun line won't have much defense... - then all they need to do is survive until something else reaches the frontline with a mark or the terminators arrive from deepstrike

On another note, How often do ork battlewagons tend to appear in 1000-1500 point lists??
I'm wondering because my list currently consists of mostly infantry but it would be cheaper to take a las pred than lascannon havocs - although oblits might be a better option than either of these....

Taking a few small expensive units against Kroot or Orks is not going to go well for you. Bikers are terrible against pretty much everything. They are a faster marine that costs 3x as much as a normal marine. Terminators are cheaper! And terminators only shine in a couple areas. They kill MEQ fairly easily, but they don't kill hordes. Not enough attacks, and you are going to lose some to nob/claws. Terminators are best in cheap suicide melta squads for deepstriking and popping a tank, or as fire support squads with reapers that can screen your more important units, like Obliterators. People will be much more hesitant to send an assault squad after your Obliterators if there are 5 or 6 terminators standing in front of them toting reaper autocannons.

Lascannon Havoks are terrible. Look how much you pay for each lascannon. Take Obliterators, Las preds, even land raiders are a better buy, or lascannon dreads. They are much cheaper and twin linked! A havok with a lascannon costs almost as much as an obliterator. Doesn't get nearly as much in return for those points. Powerfist, other weapons like multimelta and plasma cannons, terminator armor, multiple wounds, fearless...

Kremlin, ard case does not actually restrict transport space, you're thinking of a killkannon

Very true - thats what I get for trying to post at 5am LOL! - Thanks for correcting me there

Typhon the Storm Giant wrote:Havocs only have at most 1 more lascannon shot than a laspred...

Yeah, but the only way to get past the KFF is many shots. Two lascannons and one twin-linked simply result in less damage than four lascannons. You could field either though.

Yeah, but if you DS oblits beside a battlewagon the MM will take out that Battlewagon
And if they get assaulted you hope they are near their DS marker unit who will hopefully sheild them from the coming charge

I'm no expert on chaos(I just fight them, not play them), terminators with combi-melta seem to be much more suited for that role. If there is a unit close enough to deep strike them within 12", that unit is probably knee-deep in orks, as they can charge up to 14" from the battlewagon. So more often than not, it's a suicide mission anyways, so just use the cheaper option. When playing CSM(or any other army with deep striking melta) I usually take great care to prevent deep strikes in the rear armor, even within 12". I think you'd be better off just moving oblits with your other stuff, shotting lascannons and switching to MM once they are close enough. Or flamer-template some orks who get out of combat.

I'm clueless so can someone explain why you don't need to shoot a battlewagon that isn't open-topped?

Biggest reason is probably that the ork player has no idea what he is doing, as he paid 15 points to make the wagon worse
Jokes aside, an 'ard cased battlewagon prevents charging from it and limits the firepoints to five (one being out the back), so the worst thing that could come out of it are two BS2 rokkits. You can safely ignore it until it is really close.

So, would a dedicated assault unit for taking out units of Nobz with a Mark of Slaanesh be a good idea??
Like terminators with MoS, lightning claws and stuff...

I wouldn't field them just for orks, as pointed out before. If you don't know who you are facing, MoS terminators are pretty evil against other marines, as the rip them up before they get to strike.

Also, having summoned deamons for DSing near my FA bikers etc would be good for breaking a tau gunline??

As far as I can tell, summoned daemons aren't good for anything.

EDIT: Meltabombs are better at breaking open tanks than krak grenades... krak requires a roll of a six to glance AV 14 whereas meltabombs only need 2 3's to glance due to S8 + 2D6 = much better odds...

First of all, grenades are used as close combat attack, so they always hit the rear. In addition, they hit based on how far a vehicle has moved, which is probably 6+ for any battlewagon that has not been immobilized. As krak grenades are handed out to an entire unit and melta bombs just to one model, the krak grenades actually stand a better chance than the single melta bomb.

One more thing, Nobz have four attacks on the charge, five if they didn't buy a special weapon and still have slugga and choppa.

Thanks for the heads up about Nobz - @ Kremlin, what did you mean about the bosspole and the wound??

Yeah, I liked the idea of Slaanesh Terminators against MEQ and TEQ but my local area is odd because nobody really seems to play marines...
A couple of Ork players, a Tau player and a Marine player I don't see very often

With big choppas I think my terminators would only take one casualty after saves on average - MoS wouldn't cause enough wounds to the Nobz to reduce the number of return attacks - whereas, Khorne would cause enough on average to kill one Nob and wound the rest

Kinda getting mixed messages...
I'd prefer not to suicide things unless I can't avoid it; so is the best way to burst Battlewagons to DS oblits, walk oblits forward with everything else or use a laspred...

I was honestly wondering whether I could use Havocs with ML to break the softer targets like trukks and buggies and then use meltaguns and meltabombs and krak grenades to deal with the tougher battlewagons and Deff Dreads...

Check out my current list here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/440597.page
It might be better to fix the list...

One more thing, Nobz have four attacks on the charge, five if they didn't buy a special weapon and still have slugga and choppa.

Ahh, good pickup. Thanks for that as well

Does Big Choppa count as two CC weapons or one???

One two-handed weapon. Thus, an ork wielding a big choppa will never be able to gain bonus attacks from wielding two weapons.