Lawmakers target gun laws, neighborhood watch in wake of Florida teen shooting

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**Frazzled**

Why am I not surprised?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/04/02/lawmakers-target-gun-laws-neighborhood-watch-in-wake-florida-teen-shooting/

Lawmakers target gun laws, neighborhood watch in wake of Florida teen shooting

Published April 02, 2012

| FoxNews.com

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AP

March 27, 2012: Rep. Frederica Wilson, left, holds hands with Sybrina Fulton, mother of Trayvon Martin, on their way to speak at a news conference on Capitol Hill.

Capitol Hill lawmakers are doing more than donning hoodies on the House floor to respond to the death of Florida teen Trayvon Martin. Members of Congress are pushing new legislation calling for everything from gun control to restrictions on neighborhood watch groups.

The legislative steps in the wake of the fatal shooting face an uncertain fate. So far, they come exclusively from Democrats in the Congressional Black Caucus -- not power-wielding Republicans who would no doubt be leery of a hasty legislative response, particularly with an investigation still underway.

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But the sponsors are working on the measures over spring break and plan to push them when lawmakers return later this month. They claim they're trying to prevent another killing like the one that has touched off a raging national debate about race and the justice system.

"I am tired of burying young black boys," Rep. Frederica Wilson, D-Fla., said on the House floor. Martin lived in Wilson's district.

Wilson, who organized a rally in Miami Sunday calling for an arrest in the case, is taking a well-traveled path in response to a high-profile case -- she's forming a commission.

A spokesman confirmed that Wilson plans to call for the creation of a commission to study racial disparities among black men and boys in America.

Rep. Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Texas, is meanwhile working on a bill that would require neighborhood watch groups -- like the one for which shooter George Zimmerman was a volunteer -- to register.

"No one's registered," Jackson Lee spokesman Michael McQuerry told FoxNews.com.

He said staff members were meeting Monday to try to work out some of the details, such as what entities neighborhood watch groups should register with, and whether that should happen at the federal, state or local level.

Asked whether the proposal would call for neighborhood watch outfits to meet specific standards, McQuerry said it's still "being worked out."

CBC members last week introduced a separate resolution calling on states to repeal so-called "Stand Your Ground" laws. The law, a version of which was enacted in Florida in 2005, allows for individuals to use deadly force -- even outside their home -- if they feel threatened.

The proposed resolution on Capitol Hill, in addition to calling for repeal, "condemns" anybody who played a role in proposing the Stand Your Ground laws. The language in the measure makes blunt assertions about shooter Zimmerman, including a statement that says his "unfounded assumptions and racial bias led to the use of deadly force."

The case, though, is still being investigated at the local level and by federal Justice officials.

Tim Lynch, director of the Cato Institute's Project on Criminal Justice, questioned whether it was prudent to push for any concrete legislative changes without knowing all the facts.

"Holding a hearing would be fine," he noted. But he called the proposals on the Hill "premature."

"My impression is that they're rushing into something," Lynch said.

The media frenzy surrounding the shooting has turned up several conflicting accounts. Zimmerman, who has gone into hiding and has not been charged, reportedly has claimed he shot in self-defense. Others claim Zimmerman followed the unarmed teen and should be charged.

As for the renewed debate over Stand Your Ground legislation, backers of the laws have said the legislation doesn't apply in the case of Zimmerman and Martin.

Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush said last month that "stand your ground means stand your ground -- it doesn't mean chase after somebody who's turned their back."

Even Zimmerman's attorney has said the issue at play is self-defense, not Stand Your Ground.

Vice President Biden, in an interview on CBS' "Face the Nation," backed efforts to reconsider the laws.

"But that's a decision for the state to make," he added.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/04/02/lawmakers-target-gun-laws-neighborhood-watch-in-wake-florida-teen-shooting/#ixzz1qujr9Uak

**Johnny-Crass**

It's a start

**SilverMK2**

Dey took ur gurns!

**LordofHats**

Remember when people got arrested for shooting people

**Makarov**

LordofHats wrote:Remember when people got arrested for shooting people

Remember when people were allowed to defend themselves? Mark Zimmerman suffered a broken nose, and contusions to the back of his head, and there were 7 eyewitness. One corroborated his testimony, saying that he saw Martin repeatedly striking Zimmerman while he was his back on the ground. I should also point out that Martin was 6 foot, and pretty well built. Here is one link http://www.newsmax.com/US/trayvon-martin-zimmerman-killing/2012/03/26/id/433912

I would also like to point out that the New Black Panther Party has put a $10,000 dollar bounty on his head Dead or Alive.

**LordofHats**

So the kid who was attacked by Zimmerman doesn't get to defend himself but Zimmerman can claim self-defense while inciting the incident and then killing a kid based on his notions of suspicious behavior?

While I normally decry claims of racism as being alarmist, I look at this case and the only explanation I can come up with is that a black kid got shot for simply walking down the street and there are people who apparently have no problem with that.

Zimmerman should have been arrested and charged with manslaughter. We can't allow citizens to arbitrarily harass and execute people because they think they're suspicious.

**Vulcan**

Makarov wrote:
LordofHats wrote:Remember when people got arrested for shooting people

Remember when people were allowed to defend themselves? Mark Zimmerman suffered a broken nose, and contusions to the back of his head, and there were 7 eyewitness. One corroborated his testimony, saying that he saw Martin repeatedly striking Zimmerman while he was his back on the ground. I should also point out that Martin was 6 foot, and pretty well built. Here is one link http://www.newsmax.com/US/trayvon-martin-zimmerman-killing/2012/03/26/id/433912

I would also like to point out that the New Black Panther Party has put a $10,000 dollar bounty on his head Dead or Alive.

Interesting. The footage of Zimmerman in the polices station not an hour after the shooting occured didn't show any signs of those injuries. Not even a limp. No blood on the clothes (broken noses bleed like a spigot!). His clothes didn't even look particularly ruffled, much less dirty from rolling around on the ground in a fight. Somehow I suspect those witnesses have an agenda of their own...

But attacking Neighborhood Watches isn't the solution. Zimmerman wasn't a memeber of an organized Watch; he 'proclaimed' himself the leader of the watch, and no one in the neigborhood joined him.

Besides, in an offical, police-trained Neighborhood Watch, there were a few rules. One was we always operated in pairs - that way there is always a witness. Another was that we didn't follow suspects on foot, to prevent us getting attacked. Third, we were NEVER, EVER permitted to carry a gun on patrol. Not even with a C&C permit. The point was that we were there to WATCH, not pretend to be policemen.

So Zimmerman fails on multiple levels.

**Hulksmash**

@Lordofhats

How was he attacked by Zimmerman? According to some of the information coming forward it was Trayvon that swung on Zimmerman.

Now don't get me wrong. Zimmerman was an idiot for following him but I'm really tired of people claiming this boy got shot just for walking down the street. Especially as more information is coming out.

**Frazzled**

LordofHats wrote:Remember when people got arrested for shooting people

Thats so 2011....

Regardless I don't see what the case itself has to do with the law (same defense under earlier law) or homeowner watch groups. And what business is it of the Feds anyway?

**Ahtman**

Makarov wrote:Remember when people were allowed to defend themselves? Mark Zimmerman suffered a broken nose, and contusions to the back of his head

These is also evidence that casts doubt on that version of events.

Makarov wrote:and there were 7 eyewitness

That is a load of crap.

Makarov wrote:I should also point out that Martin was 6 foot, and pretty well built.

I've seen a 5'3" woman leap on a 6'2 pro-wrestler (this was a real fight, he shoved her down when she told him he couldn't bring Taco Bell into the restaurant) and begin to beat his ass. We aren't exactly talking about a Nicolay Valuev difference here.

Makarov wrote:I would also like to point out that the New Black Panther Party has put a $10,000 dollar bounty on his head Dead or Alive.

Which has nothing to do with Trayvon Martin or George Zimmerman. They are a separate group that was not involved with the incident. If a white supremacist group put a bounty out on someone you didn't like without your knowledge or approval can we blame you for that?

**Frazzled**

I've seen a 5'3" woman leap on a 6'2 pro-wrestler (this was a real fight, he shoved her down when she told him he couldn't bring Taco Bell into the restaurant) and begin to beat his ass. We aren't exactly talking about a Nicolay Valuev difference here.

So you've met my wife then?

**generalgrog**

Frazzled wrote:
I've seen a 5'3" woman leap on a 6'2 pro-wrestler (this was a real fight, he shoved her down when she told him he couldn't bring Taco Bell into the restaurant) and begin to beat his ass. We aren't exactly talking about a Nicolay Valuev difference here.

So you've met my wife then?

I didn't know you used to wrestle and were addicted to taco bell? Hmmm

GG

**Frazzled**

Just call me Macho Man...OH YEA!

**Makarov**

Ahtman wrote:
Makarov wrote:Remember when people were allowed to defend themselves? Mark Zimmerman suffered a broken nose, and contusions to the back of his head

These is also evidence that casts doubt on that version of events.

Officer Timothy Smith, in his written report, notes that “Zimmerman complied with all my commands and was secured in handcuffs.”“Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and was given first aid. … I overheard him state ‘I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me.’ … Once Zimmerman was cleared by the [Sanford Fire Department], he was transported to the Sanford Police Department.”

http://dailycaller.com/2012/03/27/police-incident-report-fills-in-details-on-trayvon-martin-shooting/#ixzz1quzU1QfR

Makarov wrote:and there were 7 eyewitness

That is a load of crap.

Makarov wrote:I should also point out that Martin was 6 foot, and pretty well built.

I've seen a 5'3" woman leap on a 6'2 pro-wrestler (this was a real fight, he shoved her down when she told him he couldn't bring Taco Bell into the restaurant) and begin to beat his ass. We aren't exactly talking about a Nicolay Valuev difference here.

No, but my point was that Trey wasn't a little kid in a red shirt. He could have killed, or seriously injured Zimmerman.

Makarov wrote:I would also like to point out that the New Black Panther Party has put a $10,000 dollar bounty on his head Dead or Alive.

Which has nothing to do with Trayvon Martin or George Zimmerman. They are a separate group that was not involved with the incident. If a white supremacist group put a bounty out on someone you didn't like without your knowledge or approval can we blame you for that?

It in relation to the link that Frazzle posted, and many who are going along with it. That there still is a threat against Zimmerman's life, and that he still does legally have the right to defend himself.

I will admit that I don't know if he is 100% guilty or innocent, and that is for a trial to decide. Also that I don't know what happened that night. No one really does.

**Frazzled**

i just see political groups tryig to take advantage of a sad event for their own ends.

**deathholydeath**

I feel that this is a tragedy resulting from a comedy of errors. Yes, Zimmerman was an idiot for following the kid, but Trayvon was also an idiot for confronting Zimmerman.

The reality of the situation is that (according to the data we have) no law was broken. Following someone is not illegal. Ignoring the advice of a 911 operator is not illegal. And in Florida, shooting someone in self defense is not illegal. The question of whether it was actually self defense or not has yet to be answered by forensics. Until we get some sort of definitive answer to that question, I'm withholding judgment.

Should the laws be changed? Probably. Florida's version of SYG is a bit far reaching and vague. Perception is an iffy thing.

**Kilkrazy**

According to the Stand Your Ground law, Trayvon was within his legal rights to confront Zimmerman -- assuming he did -- and to stab or batter him to death if he could have managed it, in self defence.

**Frazzled**

Kilkrazy wrote:According to the Stand Your Ground law, Trayvon was within his legal rights to confront Zimmerman -- assuming he did -- and to stab or batter him to death if he could have managed it, in self defence.

This must be one of those new interpretations, kind of like "new math." Absent a fact not yet in evidence, please explain.

Note Frazzled doesn't give a

about Florida law and what they screw up. He doesn't want the Federales screwing it up for the rest of us.

**Kilkrazy**

If Trayvon was in fear of his life from Zimmerman he would be entitled to defend himself.

Picture the situation. A weird man is following you -- wouldn't you get nervous?

**Frazzled**

Kilkrazy wrote:If Trayvon was in fear of his life from Zimmerman he would be entitled to defend himself.

Picture the situation. A weird man is following you -- wouldn't you get nervous?

general case law - it has to be immedate, and resonable. Florida case law may vary, but thats similar to old Florida law. As the drafter of the existing Florida legislation believes it doesn't apply in this circumstance, I'm going with him.

(interestingly I've argued this view on another thread...oooh got me some flames).

**Grakmar**

Frazzled wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:If Trayvon was in fear of his life from Zimmerman he would be entitled to defend himself.

Picture the situation. A weird man is following you -- wouldn't you get nervous?

general case law - it has to be immedate, and resonable. Florida case law may vary, but thats similar to old Florida law. As the drafter of the existing Florida legislation believes it doesn't apply in this circumstance, I'm going with him.

(interestingly I've argued this view on another thread...oooh got me some flames).

It was immediate. Zimmerman was following Trayvon around and chasing him through the streets.

And, it was reasonable. Zimmerman was following Trayvon around and chasing him through the streets!!!

Trayvon would have been totally within the Florida law to stop, turn around, and kill Zimmerman. The fact that he wasn't armed and didn't kill Zimmerman is what got him killed.

**Frazzled**

I have to bail but will leave this quickly.

It was immediate. Zimmerman was following Trayvon around and chasing him through the streets.
-Followed for a moment. in dispuite whether he was actually going back to his vehicle. No testimony so far he "chased" Martin. Indeed with asthma that would be difficult.

And, it was reasonable. Zimmerman was following Trayvon around and chasing him through the streets!!!
-You can't cap someone for that. Thats settled law. You can call the cops but so far nothing illegal has been done actually.

Trayvon would have been totally within the Florida law to stop, turn around, and kill Zimmerman. The fact that he wasn't armed and didn't kill Zimmerman is what got him killed.
-Nope, not at all. You legal wushu is weak young padiwon. You are not a jedi yet.

**AustonT**

Kilkrazy wrote:According to the Stand Your Ground law, Trayvon was within his legal rights to confront Zimmerman -- assuming he did -- and to stab or batter him to death if he could have managed it, in self defence.

Actually this pretty much sums up what I thought about this case as it was unfolding. The younger man was being followed by an older man and may have "stood his ground", if anyone had right to claim they were standing thier ground it's certainly a pedestrian being stalked by a strange man. If that happened the older dude could have felt in fear for his life and used deadly force legally, not just under stand your ground in FL but in just about every state there is a statute allowing the use of deadly force if a reasonable person would be in fear for thier life.
In my gut I feel like this Zimmerman dude murdered the Martin kid in cold blood. If that's the case it has nothing to do with the SYG law in FL and a lot more to do with the aggressive prosecution of a murderer.

For whoever said: Remember when people got arrested for shooting people?
No. No I do not. I remember when people got arrested for committing a crime.

**dogma**

Makarov wrote:

What is that supposed to prove? That he has blood on his head? If so that officer should have been more concerned for his own life.

Makarov wrote:

I see 3 people there. Where did the other 4 go?

Makarov wrote:
No, but my point was that Trey wasn't a little kid in a red shirt. He could have killed, or seriously injured Zimmerman.

Little kids in red shirts can also seriously injure you, even without weapons.

**LordofHats**

Hulksmash wrote:@Lordofhats

How was he attacked by Zimmerman? According to some of the information coming forward it was Trayvon that swung on Zimmerman.

Now don't get me wrong. Zimmerman was an idiot for following him but I'm really tired of people claiming this boy got shot just for walking down the street. Especially as more information is coming out.

Bad word choice on my part

Zimmerman self-defense is a load of

. I can't go around following people through the streets for no reason, instigating a situation, and then kill them and call it self defense. Zimmerman should not be able to benefit from his own stupidity in avoiding the consequences of killing someone. No one would be dead if he hadn't run off to play Jack Bauer. Its negligent manslaughter on its face.

**Ouze**

AustonT wrote:Actually this pretty much sums up what I thought about this case as it was unfolding. The younger man was being followed by an older man and may have "stood his ground", if anyone had right to claim they were standing thier ground it's certainly a pedestrian being stalked by a strange man.

This is well-put. I have a really hard time with a self-defense argument when you were the aggressor, at least initially. I think a lot of the facts are still unproven, on either side, but from the tapes alone it certainly seems that Zimmerman provoked... whatever happened. On the other hand, you have the right to verbally confront someone without being attacked. Until more comes out I think it's not possible to really call this one way or the other yet but my gut, until more comes out one way or the other, is that Zimmerman pulled a Bernie Goetz type situation and escalated it into a negligent homicide. I'm open to changing my mind if compelling evidence comes out. My compelling evidence, by the way, I don't include stupid irrelevant nonsense like that Trayvon might have once smoked a nickel bag of weed or owned a screwdriver or that Zimmerman was sort of white.

In either event, however, perhaps we can agree on this: in a fatal shooting incident, the police should at the very least follow the procedures they would for if a fellow officer had to shoot someone; and compel an alcohol and drug test?

**Ronin-Sage**

In this debate, I lean in favor of Martin(from what I know), but one thing auxiliary to this whole thing I do find disturbing:

Neighborhood watches aren't typically allowed to carry firearms -- does that make sense? Sure, they're purposed with observation and reporting, not direct confrontation, but they could be putting themselves into situations where they would need to defend themselves.

**MeanGreenStompa**

I, for one, welcome any opportunity to deny scum like this a gun.

**LordofHats**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

I wouldn't want him to have a gun either. He clearly has no eye for graphic design. I mean look at that poster. Its like he's not even trying to be effective in delivering his message

**dogma**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:I, for one, welcome any opportunity to deny scum like this a gun.

I assume he's working from personal experience.

Given that, people hate him for his awful fashion sense, not whiteness.

A polo, gym shorts, mid socks, and loafers? Really?