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No information is safe, with all the hackers groups being very competent and able to bring corporations and Government agencies to it's knees. So the UK Government wants to have even more centrally held information.
The UK already has the Regulation of Investigatory Powers Act 2000
Why do we need anymore legislation? The RIPA Act covers all communications, so the argument that we don't cover the internet (SKYPE, Twitter etc ) is garbage. Someone went to prison last week because of what he posted on Twitter, why does the UK need even more powers? Plus this will be shared unconditionally with US....I work in this Government sector since leaving the military, this is not required and it's starting to erode civil liberties, this could just as easily be used to collate information on Political Views. We didn't want ID Cards (like WW2 "Halt Show me your papers") and it was stopped but this has gone under the radar.
You know what I'm going to move to Texas and meet up with Frazzled, this Country is losing it's mind. We fought the IRA for 3 decades and didn't need any of this, it's nonsense. I believe in the Paternalistic justification for limiting speech, but that applies to individuals who break the law, this is a blanket citizen wide. The less said about the Secret Court Cases the better, If this comes to pass, I will take back everything I have said about GITMO because the UK is far worse.
The best way to fight terrorism, is to give them the finger and carry on regardless. Not to change our entire society, because that's what the terrorists want.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2012/04/04 12:56:28
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MeanGreenStompa wrote:Because screaming outrage about this and petrol diverts attention away from the impending second recession Great Britain is about to fall into.
If the aim was to take attention away from that the government would be drawing attention to several reports from independant research bodies in the last week including the PMI which show the UK will avoid recession.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/04 13:00:41
The best way to fight terrorism is not to give them the finger and carry on regardless. It is to drop big feth off bombs on them and arm Matty with the weapon he always wanted before he discovered they were cruelly and unnecessarily banned (flame-thrower) to eradicate even their ashes.
Second best maybe..
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/04 13:01:03
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
mattyrm wrote:The best way to fight terrorism is not to give them the finger and carry on regardless. It is to drop big feth off bombs on them and arm Matty with the weapon he always wanted before he discovered they were cruelly and unnecessarily banned (flame-thrower) to eradicate even their ashes.
Second best maybe..
Shame, I'm sure the flamethrower's 'ignore cover' rule would have been highly useful in the taliban caves in Afstan.
Let's be honest here. Any real terrorist worth their salt would not go within a million miles of any social network site, email or telephone service, if they are planning anything. It is too widely known that the security services can listen in.
Similary, how do you guard against lone wolf attacks? You cant. This is fear mongering at its worst.
It's no surprise really, freedoms have been eroded for years in Britain. The rot started with John Major, then new labour, and now these half-witted PR men pretending to be tories.
"Our crops will wither, our children will die piteous
deaths and the sun will be swept from the sky. But is it true?" - Tom Kirby, CEO, Games Workshop Ltd
Right Matt, don't make me get my Officer head on. You know more than most, that every time you flatten an afghan village with a JDAM everytime you kill a so called Terrorist/Jihadist/ Foreign Fighter/ or even a Taliban you literally increase the likelihood of recruiting another to the cause (equally his son's will clamour for revenge). This is not hearts and mind's, thats what they call it, but it isn't. When you "JAVE" some poor bastard afghan civvie's compound in a firefight, does he say " Thank you". Does he walk away thinking "I like the Brits", no he's say's "It was bad under the Taliban, but they didn't blow up my bloody house, damn infidels". The average Afghan is sick to the back teeth of the whole thing.
In 2015, we will pull out of Afghanistan, is the world safer? Will the ANA survive the Warlord-ism that will return? We have basically trained an army for a future dictator, leader or warlord in Afghanistan. We will not look back at this period with pride, we expended billions, dropping £100,000 ordnance from £30 Million pound aircraft to kill 3-5 fighters with a few cheap Ak's, PK' and some RPG's total cost less than $10000
. We levelled towns and villages with artillery and airpower because our government was unwilling to let you off the leash to wage war unimpeded, we have as a nation become risk averse and you cannot fight a war effectively with a risk averse attitude. We spilt alot of blood and lost an awful lot of good marines, Soldiers, Airmen and a few matelots too for very litte, because we never committed fully to this at all. It takes decades to stabilise a country, not one.
The truth of it is, the cost of freedom is occasional terrorist outrages. Terrorists will always get through somehow, we've just to weather the storms. Using Military Forces to Combat a Criminal problem just makes a bigger mess and actually benefits the terrorists.
EDIT - MATT I wouldn't be surprised if you stay in CORP'S long enough you could be an RSM leading a Commando back into those Mountains in the 2025 - 2030 Time frame. Mark my words.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2012/04/04 13:27:32
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nomsheep wrote:Freedom is simply an opinion. I'm free to do what I do so I'm happy.
Nom
Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose...
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
@FRAZZ I wasn't even joking about moving to the American Continent. My wife has been given a Work Permit/visa to move to Canada.
nomsheep wrote:Freedom is simply an opinion. I'm free to do what I do so I'm happy.
Nom
That is such a conceited attitude, I'm not sure if you are serious or not. Freedom from Oppression or separation, or denigration, or discrimination, or unjustifiable abuse, that sir, is no opinion, it is a fact , a real acts committed against fellow human beings. If you think Freedom is an opinion, you have a very strange notion of freedom.
This message was edited 6 times. Last update was at 2012/04/04 13:37:39
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mwnciboo wrote:Not much OIL in Afghanistan last I checked.
Fair bit in the Falklands though.
We'll add them to the list after Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and Venezuela on Frazzled's proposed Texas "Take their Oil and their Tequila!" Tour
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/04 13:54:19
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
nomsheep wrote:Freedom is simply an opinion. I'm free to do what I do so I'm happy.
Nom
That is such a conceited attitude, I'm not sure if you are serious or not. Freedom from Oppression or separation, or denigration, or discrimination, or unjustifiable abuse, that sir, is no opinion, it is a fact , a real acts committed against fellow human beings. If you think Freedom is an opinion, you have a very strange notion of freedom.
Yep, i'm partially serious, I'm free to be gay, smoke, drink, be racist(i'm not but i'm free to be), be jewish etc etc etc
Freedoms are an opinion based on the time and place. these things are wrong but our societies are working to change them.
mwnciboo wrote:Not much OIL in Afghanistan last I checked.
Fair bit in the Falklands though.
We'll add them to the list after Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and Venezuela on Frazzled's proposed Texas "Take their Oil and their Tequila!" Tour
I hope you realise that the Falklands are overrun with feral ex-farmed wild Haggis. They were introduced in the 1880s, when there was a plan to supply Scottish emigres in Australia and New Zealand.
Some of the Haggis escaped from their farms during the Falklands War, and have been roaming free since then. The climate is very like the Scottish Highlands and their numbers have increased to the point where Haggis hunting is one of the faster growing employments on the islands.
mwnciboo wrote:Not much OIL in Afghanistan last I checked.
Fair bit in the Falklands though.
We'll add them to the list after Canada, Mexico, Brazil, and Venezuela on Frazzled's proposed Texas "Take their Oil and their Tequila!" Tour
I hope you realise that the Falklands are overrun with feral ex-farmed wild Haggis. They were introduced in the 1880s, when there was a plan to supply Scottish emigres in Australia and New Zealand.
Some of the Haggis escaped from their farms during the Falklands War, and have been roaming free since then. The climate is very like the Scottish Highlands and their numbers have increased to the point where Haggis hunting is one of the faster growing employments on the islands.
That makes them an even better target. As the Falklands are small and not their natural environment, we will be able to catch a few samples with only acceptable losses (say a division or two). Thereby gaining the knowledge and power of Haggis...for Texas! ALL YOUR HAGGIS ARE BELONG TO US!!!
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
There have been so many of these kinds of threads lately, it's difficult to choose one to post this in. But I think it's pretty relevant, and not only to Britain.
John, like many British comic writers, is a bit of a kook, sure. But it's worth a listen.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/04 14:34:09
Interesting find Manchu, apart from the Condescending Media gakker at the end.
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The idea that the political establishment is queueing up to take away the British public's freedoms is utter bs. They're tightening up the law a bit. Deal with it.
Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION
You are asking me to trust the Government. Like when they told us there were Weapons of Mass destruction in Iraq? I lost mates there for what? To finish Bush Seniors failure the 1st time round.
Why do we need this legislation? Give me an example a specific credible example? The RIPA 2000 covers it already! But we are being asked to trust the Government. The same organisation that cannot organise a bum rape in a barracks, and causes mass panic buying of petrol with bad advice. The same organisation that talks about Pasties when there are nearly 1.5million unemployed. The British Government should be concentrating on our huge deficit and giving opportunities to the unemployed youth of today. Instead of pissing money up the wall, eroding our freedoms.
A good example is Christopher Tappin, extradited to the US with no evidence given, no appeal, no protection. Would an American Citizen have the same happen to them? No. The Laws all came around during the "Shoulder to Shoulder" period when Blair signed anything Bush asked for and it is now being abused. The Super-extradition piece, the compromising of our legal and military defence positions in the last 10 years has undermined any progress. We have compromised our own values with things like GITMO and assisting the US Intelligence agencies to break international law in respect to extradition and Torture.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2012/04/04 15:29:06
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mwnciboo wrote:Interesting find Manchu, apart from the Condescending Media gakker at the end.
Wagner undermines himself a bit with the "no evidence that climate change is caused by humans," which will turn some people's brains off, but it's interesting to note that a lot of people don't read Dredd as parody -- and that's actually been the case all the way back to prog 1. St Thomas More once said, "I can't wash the gak out of your mouth without getting it on my hands." That's a good description of the cultural consequences of World War II, the Cold War, the War Against Terrorism, etc, etc.
mwnciboo wrote:Right Matt, don't make me get my Officer head on. You know more than most, that every time you flatten an afghan village with a JDAM everytime you kill a so called Terrorist/Jihadist/ Foreign Fighter/ or even a Taliban you literally increase the likelihood of recruiting another to the cause (equally his son's will clamour for revenge). This is not hearts and mind's, thats what they call it, but it isn't. When you "JAVE" some poor bastard afghan civvie's compound in a firefight, does he say " Thank you". Does he walk away thinking "I like the Brits", no he's say's "It was bad under the Taliban, but they didn't blow up my bloody house, damn infidels".
EDIT - MATT I wouldn't be surprised if you stay in CORP'S long enough you could be an RSM leading a Commando back into those Mountains in the 2025 - 2030 Time frame. Mark my words.
I was only taking the piss like mate.... I'm fully aware of the ramifications of causing casualties to civpop. I was in Northern Ireland after having it endlessly drummed into me for 18 months, and these tribal "my sons will hunt your seed for an eternity" Afghan mother fethers are a whole new ball game!
On a serious note, I agree largely with the opposition to some of the new legislation, but I dare say much of it is media nonsense. I like to think that the guys on larger pay scales than me know what they are talking about reference this gak. As I said, if it makes it harder for some bloke in Leeds to email some AQ operatives in Pakistan then I think its a good idea. The bad guys know every inch of the law and they routinely feth us with it. I'm not saying we should fundamentally change our way of life, but there is a happy medium surely?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/04 15:24:29
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
Yup, and the happy Medium is where we are now. GCHQ and the SIS have more than enough legislation.
If you want to intercept communications, you can apply to RIPA Officer with the evidence attached, the RIPA Officer for every Organisation or Police Force can then authorise the Comms intercept (Delegated from ministerial level and then further delegated down the chain due to the very high volume of requests) and the application and paperwork retained.
Therefore you need "Reasonable grounds" and "Evidence", just like any Criminal Intelligence led operation. GCHQ does alot of "other" stuff, i'm talking Y-Troop with a Global reach (which falls elsewhere within the law or not, "what the eye don't see, the heart won't feel").
This is currently the number of Government agencies able to authorise RIPA 2000 Communication intercept.
1.Any police force. 1A.The Civil Nuclear Constabulary. 2.The Serious Organised Crime Agency. 2A.The Scottish Crime and Drug Enforcement Agency 3.The National Crime Squad. 4.The Serious Fraud Office. 4A.The force comprising the special constables appointed under section 79... 4B.The force comprising the constables appointed under article 3 of... The intelligence services 5.Any of the intelligence services. The armed forces 6.Any of Her Majesty’s forces. Revenue and Customs 7.Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs. 8.The Commissioners of Inland Revenue. Government departments The Department of Energy and Climate Change. 9.The Department for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs. 9ZA.The Department for Business, Enterprise and Regulatory Reform. 9ZB.The Department for Business, Innovation and Skills. 9A.The Department for Communities and Local Government 10.The Ministry of Defence. 11.The Department for Transport. the Office of the Deputy Prime... 12.The Department of Health. 13.The Home Office. 13ZA.The Ministry of Justice 13A.The Northern Ireland Office. 14.The Department for Work and Pensions. 15.The Department of Trade and Industry.
(Why the Government Departments need it is beyond me? The Police and Intelligence services, Inland revenue are the investigative branches if any Department believes there is Law breaking going on they should report it to the Police to investigate.) Notice that the UK Borders Agency isn't on there?
This new legislation will do away with this process and automatically allow any department to listen to anyone without audit, control or authority. Oh and it will allow you to have Civil trials in private with neither the defendant or defendants Legal counsel to be present, so to be able to present the court with evidence from Intelligence sources which is currently not admissible in court. You would have an ADVOCATE appointed and he would not know you, meet you or talk to you but would represent you in a blind trial. This would have stopped the British men imprisoned in GITMO from suing the British Government on their return like they did a few years ago.
Now bearing in mind how often intelligence is wrong, or wide of the mark, you will be able to convict people on conjecture and/or suspicion rather than facts of the case. This is a huge change to the Legal system.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2012/04/04 16:08:46
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mwnciboo wrote:You are asking me to trust the Government.
No I'm not. The government are bastards but they are not tyrants. They want to see what you do on your computer about as much as I do (i.e. not at all).
Ever thought 40k would be a lot better with bears?
Codex: Bears.
NOW WITH MR BIGGLES AND HIS AMAZING FLYING CONTRAPTION
So why do they need the legislation? It is simple laziness, they don't want to follow established procedures during investigations. They would rather circumvent these safeguards to gain speed in the investigation. Much of what they do and how they do it is so classified they cannot divulge their methods or tactics anyway in court. The realtime access without safeguards will allow even more access by SIS et al to gain access and potentially subvert your browsing? What protection have you got? There was a good example on R4 today where a woman had her WI-FI system piggy-backed (because she didn't have a password on it, silly but not illegal). Her house was raided and she had to hand over everything, she then was held for days while they interrogated her, then they discovered it was someone bouncing on to her WIFI. She never got any compensation or her Computer or Wifi router back.
They want to see what you do on your computer about as much as I do (i.e. not at all).
How do you know? With the list above you are of incredible value to at least 2-3 of those government depts.
I disagree, seeing peoples browsing habits has enormous value (A programme which can auto log them and look for patterns is not beyond us at this time) for things such as tailoring political campaigns, gathering real time Census confirming data etc . The information in of itself would be well worth getting hold of by an unscrupulous organisation. Having worked on Government Secure IT systems, they are held together by incompetents and jobsworths so it's only a matter of time.
Will this be exempt from the FOI Act as well? Otherwise I would be able to request this information (which they will deny on National Security Grounds). The entire legal system is slowly being eroded by this "National Security Caveat".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/04 16:35:06
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mwnciboo wrote:You are asking me to trust the Government.
No I'm not. The government are bastards but they are not tyrants. They want to see what you do on your computer about as much as I do (i.e. not at all).
Yeah that's my point, I can see both sides of the argument, but at the end of the day.. I don't give much of a feth if some tit is reading my boring as feth emails. If it helps stop a British born Muslim emailing a AQ operative in Helmand province, then they can read my boring ass emails as much as they want.
Same with CCTV. It doesn't bother me because I don't give a feth if someone is watching me, but how many times does it help catch criminals? If some bloke is sneakily using a CCTV camera to watch grainy footage of me plugging my missus on the couch and chuckling to himself while I remain utterly ignorant of said fact I don't much care.
I think the hippies that rant endlessly about civil liberties delude themselves frankly.. I heard Clegg talking about it and he said the legislation was nothing like how the press was writing it up. Ultimately I will reserve judgement until I know more about it, but realistically, how will this negatively affect law abiding citizens like me?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
mwnciboo wrote: Having worked on Government Secure IT systems, they are held together by incompetents and jobsworths so it's only a matter of time.
This is true of course.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2012/04/04 16:43:56
We are arming Syrian rebels who support ISIS, who is fighting Iran, who is fighting Iraq who we also support against ISIS, while fighting Kurds who we support while they are fighting Syrian rebels.
The police seizes items, then holds them during the court proceedings, then auctions them off quietly without telling who it actually belonged to and then pocket the money. Guilt or innocence is irrelevant.
This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2012/04/04 17:01:58
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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