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So intense!

*Ahem*

So, we've got this Forgeworld update, full of lots of neat stuff: crisis suit commander options, tetras and towers, hammerhead options, and more.

The question is, with the new "stamp," how "official" is this stuff, really? Has anyone out there in Dakkaland had any experience using it? Is it balanced? Do your opponents generally let you use it? What about tournaments? This isn't a White Dwarf update, and Games Workshop itself has been silent, so far. Are we to take this as a pseudo-codex?

In general, I am someone unaccustomed to the ebb and flow of Games Workshop and faction politics, so your thoughts are welcome.

It's as official as you want it to be. That stamp means it's balanced for standard games of 40k, and not for Apocalypse specifically. Treat Forgeworld rules the same way you'd treat Cities of Death or Planetsrike expansions - say "Hey, would you be okay with a 40k game using some Forgeworld rules?" and if your opponent okays it, go for it. Most tournaments don't allow Forgeworld stuff unfortunately, but any player who isn't a total ass will be happy to play against something new and different.

Now cue the same few blowhards going on about everything from Forgeworld being overpowered because they fought against one single unbalanced unit ever, or weren't prepared to fight some flavorful and overcosted unit somewhere else. Never get tired of seeing the same people in every thread concerning Forgeworld stuff.

As I've stated before, the warhammer 40k stamp means it's fine to go in standard games. No issue at all.

As for balanced I've yet to play someone who uses the tau forgeworld stuff, maybe I'll let someone proxy it, hm.

Sensor towers might even make firewarriors a bit more useful, and would make crisis suits kinda scary.

Brother SRM wrote:It's as official as you want it to be. That stamp means it's balanced for standard games of 40k, and not for Apocalypse specifically. Treat Forgeworld rules the same way you'd treat Cities of Death or Planetsrike expansions - say "Hey, would you be okay with a 40k game using some Forgeworld rules?" and if your opponent okays it, go for it. Most tournaments don't allow Forgeworld stuff unfortunately, but any player who isn't a total ass will be happy to play against something new and different.

Now cue the same few blowhards going on about everything from Forgeworld being overpowered because they fought against one single unbalanced unit ever, or weren't prepared to fight some flavorful and overcosted unit somewhere else. Never get tired of seeing the same people in every thread concerning Forgeworld stuff.

Pretty much this. Note that there's always a pretty hefty discussion about whether FW stuff is "permission only; not normally legal" or "always legal; deal with it." The arguments usually get pretty heated. Just be warned.

Anyway, as Brother SRM said, it's polite to ask your opponent before dropping FW stuff on the table, regardless of the legality. Many players do not have easy access* to all the FW rules or have not had as much experience playing with/against FW units and army lists. As a result, bringing a bunch of FW stuff without asking can lead to some bad feelings by people who think you're trying to cheat them by purposefully throwing around units with which they're not familiar. Just bring your FW book and let your opponent read up on anything that they're not clear about and you should be fine.

*There are certain... ways that codices become widely available. These methods are not used as often with FW books. Personally I feel like that's a major factor here, but take it as you will.

Well, the way the head-blackshirt at my Local GW Store described it was:

"Since we're selling the Forgeworld Imperial Armor Books in store, using the units and special army builds is fine without consent of the opposing player, however, you must buy the book in order to play the army.

Whether or not Forgeworld units and rules are allowed in store tourneys are conditional, especially when prizes are involved."

YMMV depending on the overall attitude where you game. For me, since Games Workshop owns Forgeworld, getting permission is obselete, as they are part of the same company and should, for all intended purposes, be considered army suppliments for advanced or specialized army building (Much like Codex:Catachan and Craftworld Eldar and Eye of Terror books).

KplKeegan wrote:Well, the way the head-blackshirt at my Local GW Store described it was:

"Since we're selling the Forgeworld Imperial Armor Books in store, using the units and special army builds is fine without consent of the opposing player, however, you must buy the book in order to play the army.

Here we go again. Does anyone see the stupidity of such a statement from said GW manager? So I have to get consent from my opponent to play a game against them in the first place, THEN get consent from them to use a FW list as they wish to go through it with a fine tooth comb or something. Do people play games without an opponent's consent at your GW or something?

As for the last bit, of course you have to buy the book, that should go without saying. How is that any different from turning up to play a "normal" 40k army with the relevant codex?

Grimtuff wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:Well, the way the head-blackshirt at my Local GW Store described it was:

"Since we're selling the Forgeworld Imperial Armor Books in store, using the units and special army builds is fine without consent of the opposing player, however, you must buy the book in order to play the army.

Here we go again. Does anyone see the stupidity of such a statement from said GW manager? So I have to get consent from my opponent to play a game against them in the first place, THEN get consent from them to use a FW list as they wish to go through it with a fine tooth comb or something. Do people play games without an opponent's consent at your GW or something?

As for the last bit, of course you have to buy the book, that should go without saying. How is that any different from turning up to play a "normal" 40k army with the relevant codex?

I may have misinterpreted your statement, but the GW manager says you DON'T need consent from the other player.

bmoleski wrote:

I may have misinterpreted your statement, but the GW manager says you DON'T need consent from the other player.

You need consent for anything you bring to the table.

At the end of the day, if your opponent doesn't like to be presented with Forge World without prior notice and decides to bail he's perfectly within his rights to do so. It's generally considered "good form" to arrange it a couple of days before so that your opponent can read up on it beforehand.

Iranna.

bmoleski wrote:

Grimtuff wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:Well, the way the head-blackshirt at my Local GW Store described it was:

"Since we're selling the Forgeworld Imperial Armor Books in store, using the units and special army builds is fine without consent of the opposing player, however, you must buy the book in order to play the army.

Here we go again. Does anyone see the stupidity of such a statement from said GW manager? So I have to get consent from my opponent to play a game against them in the first place, THEN get consent from them to use a FW list as they wish to go through it with a fine tooth comb or something. Do people play games without an opponent's consent at your GW or something?

As for the last bit, of course you have to buy the book, that should go without saying. How is that any different from turning up to play a "normal" 40k army with the relevant codex?

I may have misinterpreted your statement, but the GW manager says you DON'T need consent from the other player.

Implying one needs it at all other times.

Don't you see how utterly stupid it sounds for them to be arbitrarily saying FW needs some kind of "double consent" (the first consent simply being your opponent agreeing to a game in the first place) to simply use them. This is not the case. Whilst this manager may have waived this nonexistant rule, it seems to be standard fair across many gaming communities I've seen.

Every argument I've seen can easily be refuted- Mainly ones of ignorance of how the army fights (how is this any different from someone fighting the new Empire army in WHFB yesterday?). Presumably the player should have the book in front of them, this goes for any army, not just FW lists, so any claim of "He's cheating" can easily be addressed as with any other army as the rules are right there. Claims of overpoweredness can also be bunked, we're only just sneaking into the second hand's worth of units that people consider to be overpowered by FW, whereas GW has a laundry list of broken units and even whole codexes/armybooks.

Watch out guys, non-consensual 40k can get you thrown in jail, and don't get me started on statutory wargaming.

Now, does the fact that this update - and all associated rules - takes the form of a downloadable pdf available for free to anyone with an internet connection, change anything? It's only seven pages; I could easily print it out and slip it into the back of my codex. It was distributed for free, so I'm not even violating any rules by doing so.

The apoc books specifically states you must have your opponents permission to use them in a standard game.

I love Forgeworld stuff, and welcome games against their lists.


Also, I figured I'd save others the need to hunt this one down. Here's forgeworld's downloads page, and the article in question is one of the first items on the list.
http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Downloads.html

I just played a game using the Tetras. At 55 points for 4 BS4 markerlights its a great replacement for pathfinder squads. It's a tiny skimmer and able to fit just about anywhere and still draw LoS with its top mounted marker. I loved it.

That said, the update packet didn't have anything else worth bringing. The re-roll range on the sensor towers is 6" and is limited to your deployment zone. I don't see these as being useful.

The drone turrets are a maybe for me. For 160 points you get 8 S7 shots with a 4+ invul save on an armor 12 unit. They also seem to be a decent size to hide a suit behind or atleast keeping your broadsides out of an assault.

I would simply look at a guy with a nasty look if he didnt let me field a FW unit.

I mean playing Tau in is current form is far from a comp army... Adding spice to it with units that make the army better should not bother anyone.

My concern would be that a player who does not allow FW units in a game is simply a WAAC player. Who in their right mind would say NO to playing against TAU ?

Even with FW units added in the Tau are weak.


With that said I LOVE my FW Tetras... they allow me to spend points elsewhere other than over costed PF and Fish unit...

You will love this one. This guy I know has been wanting to play against my Tau for a while now. Wanting to get an "Easy" win I guess. So we tried setting up a match and I mentioned I was going to use the FW tetras. He said he didn't want to play against FW units so I showed him the sheet and pointed out that at Armor 10 with no weapons they aren't to big a deal and they have GW's go ahead seal.

"I don't know. They seem kinda cheesy."

Oh.

He plays GKs too.

It's amazing how people see cheeze in Forgeworld Units but not in they're own Codex...

ZebioLizard2 wrote:As I've stated before, the warhammer 40k stamp means it's fine to go in standard games. No issue at all.

As for balance

I agree, the stamp is the "official nod" I have been waiting for.
Whether its balanced or not its not up to me, but up to the designer / writer to worry about :')


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimtuff wrote:

KplKeegan wrote:Well, the way the head-blackshirt at my Local GW Store described it was:

"Since we're selling the Forgeworld Imperial Armor Books in store, using the units and special army builds is fine without consent of the opposing player, however, you must buy the book in order to play the army.

Here we go again. Does anyone see the stupidity of such a statement from said GW manager? So I have to get consent from my opponent to play a game against them in the first place, THEN get consent from them to use a FW list as they wish to go through it with a fine tooth comb or something. Do people play games without an opponent's consent at your GW or something?

Its the truth. I dont know which US store or manager has said that, I can swear to god the Canada BC manager also said something similar...
Of course less evil? This manager is more skilled.
"how do we know FW players arnt making stats up" ?
" no a pdf print out is not authentic"
" we DO sell FW books here, why not buy it? Either way, no official book, no games with it IN MY STORE"

Answering your question grimtuff, yes it does go through 2 layers of permission. The manager always keep an eye out on (abnormal looking things)
e.g they take 1 glance to check if its FW, and 2nd glance to make sure ITS NOT none GW / none FW.

PDF and print outs not authentic?

What happens with FAQ and erratas!?

Savageconvoy wrote:PDF and print outs not authentic?

What happens with FAQ and erratas!?

I think the manager meant a single page of paper can be faked.
Not saying anyone would do so but, an actual book > a printed page.

And most importantly, they get to earn like what... $70 if you do buy it from them?

Frankly, I live in San Francisco and my local GW is all the way down in San Jose. I play at Gamescape SF, and I couldn't care less about what they think in a GW store. I'm not buying a $70 book in order to get permission to play models that will cost me upwards of $100, especially when the pdf rules are available and distributed for free, intentionally, by the people who wrote them.

Brother SRM wrote:Watch out guys, non-consensual 40k can get you thrown in jail, and don't get me started on statutory wargaming.

She said she was over 1800, I swear i didn't know!

To be fair if someone came into my store with a pirated PDF printout I wouldn't be too happy. Eratta and updated FAQs is one thing, but if they're bringing in scanned codices, Forgeworld or not, I couldn't abide that.

ElectricPaladin wrote:especially when the pdf rules are available and distributed for free, intentionally, by the people who wrote them.

Really? @_@

LunaHound wrote:

ElectricPaladin wrote:especially when the pdf rules are available and distributed for free, intentionally, by the people who wrote them.

Really? @_@

Forgeworld has some updated army lists that they do have available free for download, yeah.

Woo linky please I like free stuff :'D

LunaHound wrote:Woo linky please I like free stuff :'D

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Downloads.html
There's army lists for Death Korps of Krieg siege regiments and for some Vraksian renegades. They're missing stats for common weapons like lasguns and flamers, but if you can find an IG reference sheet you're golden.

Brother SRM wrote:

LunaHound wrote:Woo linky please I like free stuff :'D

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/News/Downloads.html
There's army lists for Death Korps of Krieg siege regiments and for some Vraksian renegades. They're missing stats for common weapons like lasguns and flamers, but if you can find an IG reference sheet you're golden.

super , thank you!

common weapons are in rule book i think xD