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ok ever army i fight has some type of melta or mulite. I get that there good at tank killing. but my problem with them is i dont like that you have to get so close to use them. iam a big fan of las cannons and plasma cannons i have got 3 of each in my army and i like the rang and fire power the give me. also why do all space marnie armys us spam ml squads. and some IG army do to. ii have no luck killing any tanks with them. i also take a lot of HB and the do good for me. but iam told ther a waste of points. just looking for advice as in to which is better and why iam a shooty army so i like range fire power

Meltas are better than plasma guns/rifles and don't overheat, plus can kill vehicles easily. They also instant death toughness 4 or less things

Missile launchers are great light vehicle killers (transports) and can switch to dealing with infantry on the fly.

Easy, every other weapon is more expensive and less effective.

Take Dark Eldar darklight weapons, to kill a single rhino I need to dedicate 9 shots on average, 18 if they have cover, not to mention are 15 to 25pts each, whereas the missile launcher is either free or 10pts.

people use them because IMHO the game has became a game of mobility, who can get the closest the fastest, who can speed along down that alleyway to fire a melta weapon against the monolith fastest, etc, etc...

this is my humble opinion but people will say different...

I just like a lot of the other heavy guns more and it fits in with my style of play. i just dont like to get close in less i have to. with rapid fire tac squads if i get that close i have to give up shooting to charge.

Meh everyone has a different play style im just saying why people pick up melta guns and Co..

Also for SM drop pods are good and they Dont waste a turn of shooting ...

Because they're cost effective for this edition.

Player's try and accrue weapons based on what it does and compare it to the model wielding it (factoring in survivability, Ballistic Skill/Weapon Skill, any abilities that may enhance its stats, and cost of the model itself) and make a decision that is both:

1) Cheap and Effective
2) Counters a certain unit type (Vehicles, Infantry, Calvary, etc.

A Player's decision can also be dictated by the Edition that the game is played in.

For instance, since 4+ cover save is almost universal in this edition, many people believe that Heavy Bolters, which was really good at wounding infantry, got a little nerfed from all the 4+ cover, so its effectiveness lowered.

Meanwhile, Autocannons and Missile Launchers can both injure enemy units and blow up transports, and in 5th's rich vehicle meta, their effectiveness sky-rocketed.

Same deal with Melta's and Plasmas--Melta's can blow up vehicles and instant death T4 characters and don't get hot, and its cheaper than the Plasma, so its points effectiveness went through the roof.

frogy27 wrote:I just like a lot of the other heavy guns more and it fits in with my style of play. i just dont like to get close in less i have to. with rapid fire tac squads if i get that close i have to give up shooting to charge.

Space Marines have bolt pistols right? Well you can shoot those and still charge...

happygolucky wrote:people use them because IMHO the game has became a game of mobility, who can get the closest the fastest, who can speed along down that alleyway to fire a melta weapon against the monolith fastest, etc, etc...

this is my humble opinion but people will say different...

That's not your opinion, it's fact. With running and mech, mobility is king in 5th edition.

frogy27 wrote:I just like a lot of the other heavy guns more and it fits in with my style of play. i just dont like to get close in less i have to. with rapid fire tac squads if i get that close i have to give up shooting to charge.

Marines aren't meant to stand at 24" and shoot. They're meant to get in the 12" range mark and rapid fire the hell out of everything. They're durable enough to not die when they get shot at, and their weaponry literally doubles in effectiveness up close. As more meltas and missile launchers, they're both cheap and versatile. Meltas can double out T4 models, wound MC's, blow up vehicles better than almost anything, and charge the contents of a transport after shooting it. Missile launchers are insanely cheap or free, and have a decent strength and AP that can waste multiwound infantry like Nobz or Warriors, and effectively blow up light-medium armor. They also have long range so if you have them on a Devastator/Long Fang/Havoc squad you can reach out and touch someone from the backfield. Considering lascannons cost 20 points more than them in a Dev squad, it's kind of a no brainer to get missile launchers. Also OP, please work on your spelling, grammar, and punctuation.

I dont use any transports at all to me ther death traps. i like to keep the enemy at arms length and raipd fire stinks if ur that close to double tap you will get charged and die marines dont last long in C&C. i rather forgo my raipd fire to charge the enemy. i normal get 2 truns to shoot be for am forced to charge our get charged. out of 20 shots i might kill 5 our 6 models that does no good i rather charge and tie enemy.

If this is the same Froggy27 that is on www.stcloudwargaming.com, then you will just figure out what things work better and what things are less effective. Also, marines are pretty solid in cc, I believe. Marines are the jack of all trades, good at everything, but great at nothing, that is why they are a great starter army. In this eddition transports are key and they make your units more survivable. Take a look at my Sallie list or my Guard List on Tuesday. Also,don't forget that marines have a bolt pistol, shoot them and you can still assault.

frogy27 wrote:I dont use any transports at all to me ther death traps. i like to keep the enemy at arms length and raipd fire stinks if ur that close to double tap you will get charged and die marines dont last long in C&C. i rather forgo my raipd fire to charge the enemy. i normal get 2 truns to shoot be for am forced to charge our get charged. out of 20 shots i might kill 5 our 6 models that does no good i rather charge and tie enemy.

I'll say it again, please work on your spelling and grammar. Don't use chatspeak like subbing out "u" for "you" or what have you. Have your tactical Marines rapid fire before a dedicated assault unit can charge the enemy. Alternately, use multiple tactical squads together to take out one unit. If you stand back at 24" you're just delaying the inevitable; you don't have the firepower of a Guard army, and you don't benefit from their playstyle.

Why do you think transports are deathtraps? The last time they were was in 4th edition, back before the current ruleset in summer 2008. On the rare occasion a Rhino explodes, a 10 man squad will take 5 wounds, 3 of which it will save. Losing two ablative wound tactical Marines for that mobility is golden. It sounds like you probably haven't ever used a transport if you're thinking this.

The largest reason that certain weapons are shunned is because of the ridiculous 'single list' mentality people have.

Too many people only write a single list, and never change it, and certainly never change it based on who they are going to be fighting.

This results in many artificial perceptions.

If you are going to build a single army to take all comers, then of course certain units and upgrades will be shunned, because their predicted efficacy must be compared against all prevalent army builds.

If more players simply changed their list a little between games, depending on who they were fighting, then all those crappy units would be better, those shunned weapons would be used more often, and those OP units would be reigned in a bit.

I know everyone is saying the rhinos are cheap, but no fool runs them without extra armor. sometimes a dozer blade. That's 4 marines you could have on the table instead of getting that extra 6 inches of movement you can still attain by running.

Too many players are narrow minded. If your list is all Bolters, Melta's and Missile launchers what are you going to do about things like Terminators or units with FNP (such as a TMC or GK Paladin)

Terminators - Weight of Fire? i'd rather force the 5+ With a Plasma Cannon or Las Cannon. On average it should take 6 bolter shots to get through a terminators armour, aka 6 marines or 3 marines up close (and thats if they all hit and wound). I'd rather pay for las cannon or plasma cannon than 3-6 more marines.

juraigamer wrote:I know everyone is saying the rhinos are cheap, but no fool runs them without extra armor. sometimes a dozer blade. That's 4 marines you could have on the table instead of getting that extra 6 inches of movement you can still attain by running.

But lets see those same marines survive a S 7, Ap 3 pieplate or two, while running across the battelfield at 12'' a turn, and not lose a guy

Vehicles have their place, and part of that is taking fire the Marines can't survive until they get where they are going.


Rhinos, even with extra armour, are dirt cheap, as they provide near complete immunity to infantry fire, can self repair, can tank-shock their way through units...

I'll take that over 4 Tac's any day

Karnac wrote:Too many players are narrow minded. If your list is all Bolters, Melta's and Missile launchers what are you going to do about things like Terminators or units with FNP (such as a TMC or GK Paladin)

Strength 8 ignores FNP and also instant deaths Paladins and Nobz

AP1 ignores FNP and armor saves.

Ergo Meltas are just as effective as you could reasonably expect from anything against Terminators or FNP units. They're also assault weapons, so rather than sitting and waiting to get charged, you can actually run in there yourself after a few melta shots.

juraigamer wrote:I know everyone is saying the rhinos are cheap, but no fool runs them without extra armor. sometimes a dozer blade. That's 4 marines you could have on the table instead of getting that extra 6 inches of movement you can still attain by running.

I never buy extra armor. 15 points is better spent elsewhere. Sometimes I'll do a dozer blade, but there's only one result on the damage table that extra armor ignores. The only vehicles I buy extra armor on are Ork Battlewagons, and they're cheaper there to boot.

Karnac wrote:Too many players are narrow minded. If your list is all Bolters, Melta's and Missile launchers what are you going to do about things like Terminators or units with FNP (such as a TMC or GK Paladin)

Terminators - Weight of Fire? i'd rather force the 5+ With a Plasma Cannon or Las Cannon. On average it should take 6 bolter shots to get through a terminators armour, aka 6 marines or 3 marines up close (and thats if they all hit and wound). I'd rather pay for las cannon or plasma cannon than 3-6 more marines.

6 bolter shots is lowballing by quite a bit. 6 bolter shots = 4 hits = 2 wounds, which a 2+ is going to ignore by and large. Statistics say it would take 18 bolter shots to kill a Terminator. Plasma guns still have a place in the game but meltas are far more versatile. I definitely use both in my army lists.

Im sure its been said already, but meltas are primo tank busters.

ML like said before as well are capable of dealing with both armored threats as well as infantry. It just makes sense to me to spam them. Thats what I do with my guard.

Take in to consideration BS of units and the chance of scatter. Why not have a blast that still has a chance of hitting something then not hitting anything at all. Las cannons are awesome with the right units, but its a unnecessary risk in my eyes. Don't take it as me saying scrap them, because that would be foolish, but thats just how I play. It all depends on if your willing to take that risk.

I never, ever want to take missile launchers with my IG. I've got autocannons for that, and they tend to be cheaper and get hits more reliably. The higher rate of fire and slight downgrade in S/AP balance out, and if I'm shooting at Marines or Warriors or whatever I'll be shooting them with battlecannons anyway.

Brother SRM wrote:I never, ever want to take missile launchers with my IG. I've got autocannons for that, and they tend to be cheaper and get hits more reliably. The higher rate of fire and slight downgrade in S/AP balance out, and if I'm shooting at Marines or Warriors or whatever I'll be shooting them with battlecannons anyway.

I can agree with that too. well said. AC/GL squads are pretty nice.

Autocannons are also good since two shots gives you two chances at that precious stun result on the tank you're suppressing. Picking off infantry in the open is often less important than shutting down the mechanized support. Multiple med-strength shots are best at that.

i personally would spam plasma cannons over ML - they would be fun to fire at draigo

Plasma cannons are blast weapons and subject to scatter. Krak missiles, on the other hand, are not.

Sure, a krak missile is going to give Draigo the armor save and FNP that a plasma cannon won't, but given the effective reduction in BS (any blast template weapon is fired at an effective BS of 2) I'd rather shoot 4 missiles and have 3 of them hit than shoot 4 plasma cannon blasts and only have one of them land.

In 4ed, blast weapons only scattered if they were ordnance weapons fired outside LoS or if they were ordnance (barrage) weapons, which always scattered. Plasma also lost its "Gets Hot!" rule for an edition, and you saw a lot of plasma spam in 4ed as a result. Plasma, despite having -1S compared to Krak missiles, is a superior weapon in that situation. In 5ed, with the "every blast scatters, period" rule, not so much.

So it seems like the meta in 5ed has evolved from "40k in metal boxes with loads of melta" to "40k with lots and lots of models to counteract the inevitable loads of melta". So we settled on missile launchers as a result, since they're flexible enough to be used against infantry, MCs, and transports, while still taking loads 'o melta and pretty much disdaining weapons like the humble flamer template (unless Your Flamer is Different: see Orks for an example).

After all, a melta instasplortching one model out of a 10man assault unit is less painful than a melta blowing up a high cost las/plas razorback.

Chesh wrote:Plasma cannons are blast weapons and subject to scatter. Krak missiles, on the other hand, are not.

Sure, a krak missile is going to give Draigo the armor save and FNP that a plasma cannon won't, but given the effective reduction in BS (any blast template weapon is fired at an effective BS of 2) I'd rather shoot 4 missiles and have 3 of them hit than shoot 4 plasma cannon blasts and only have one of them land.

Blast weapons are actually more accurate than this. With BS4, direct hit chance on the target is 44% and 1" scatter 7.4% chance. This gives you effective BS of 3 for small blast weapons. Large blast is effectively BS 4 in same case.
Now, blast weapons are very hard to mathhammer though, as there are too many variables (coherency distance, what direction the blast scatters, how far the blast scatters, how many hits originally, how many hits after scatter), but they're not nearly as bad as you make them look like.

At 2" coherency max and 3" blast, if they were at max coherency in a strictly straight linear formation, you could hit at least 2 models, and there's 2 options on a D6 for no scatter, so that's a 33% baseline to hit at least 2 models.

The reason for the Missile Launcher is the versatility. Lots of infantry? Blast template. Lots of tanks? Krak missile for the lighter armoured vehicles such as the standard transports, opening up stuff like Lascannons on your tanks to deal with the heavier vehicles. Melta is because of the ease it has. However these choices rely on the fact that your meta matches the generalised meta. Around here for example it is not full mech but rather infantry heavy or hybrids. That means the Missile Launcher is a nice choice, but the Melta not so much. So I can get away with a Flamer or such to help push them off of cover a little more.

Luide wrote:

Chesh wrote:Plasma cannons are blast weapons and subject to scatter. Krak missiles, on the other hand, are not.

Sure, a krak missile is going to give Draigo the armor save and FNP that a plasma cannon won't, but given the effective reduction in BS (any blast template weapon is fired at an effective BS of 2) I'd rather shoot 4 missiles and have 3 of them hit than shoot 4 plasma cannon blasts and only have one of them land.

Blast weapons are actually more accurate than this. With BS4, direct hit chance on the target is 44% and 1" scatter 7.4% chance. This gives you effective BS of 3 for small blast weapons. Large blast is effectively BS 4 in same case.
Now, blast weapons are very hard to mathhammer though, as there are too many variables (coherency distance, what direction the blast scatters, how far the blast scatters, how many hits originally, how many hits after scatter), but they're not nearly as bad as you make them look like.

Assuming 2" coherency, you'll be hard pressed to hit more than one model, unless the 3" template lands right between two models. I'm counting the hit chance at 33%, since it's fair nigh impossible to mathhammer scatter.

2d6 scatter averages 7" - 4" for BS = 3" scatter / 2" coherency = 1 model hit, possibly 2. This assumes, of course, that it scatters in the right direction and optimal placement of target models and blast template. If you're firing it at a blob that's at least 7" radius, then you'll likely get a hit if you place the blast template on the center model. It's like a blue moon - it happens, but it's rare enough that you can count a scatter as a miss, and be right more often than not. This isn't 4th edition, where if you have LoS to your blast target you only roll 1d6 scatter. It's always 2d6 - BS (unless you're out of LoS in which case it always scatters the full 2d6).

Large blast is something different entirely, but we're not talking about large blasts, are we?

TedNugent wrote:

Karnac wrote:Too many players are narrow minded. If your list is all Bolters, Melta's and Missile launchers what are you going to do about things like Terminators or units with FNP (such as a TMC or GK Paladin)

Strength 8 ignores FNP and also instant deaths Paladins and Nobz

AP1 ignores FNP and armor saves.

Ergo Meltas are just as effective as you could reasonably expect from anything against Terminators or FNP units. They're also assault weapons, so rather than sitting and waiting to get charged, you can actually run in there yourself after a few melta shots.

your right on the FNP to the T4's, except Paladins any Termies wont need FNP with thier 2+ save.
Melta's are still a horrible option versus the Terminators. Sure you have a decent chance to melta one guy. But on the charge a Tac squad will be killed by Terminators or Paladins. There goes 175-200 points to kill 1-3 Terminators or maybe 2 Paladins.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Chesh wrote:

Luide wrote:

Chesh wrote:Plasma cannons are blast weapons and subject to scatter. Krak missiles, on the other hand, are not.

Sure, a krak missile is going to give Draigo the armor save and FNP that a plasma cannon won't, but given the effective reduction in BS (any blast template weapon is fired at an effective BS of 2) I'd rather shoot 4 missiles and have 3 of them hit than shoot 4 plasma cannon blasts and only have one of them land.

Blast weapons are actually more accurate than this. With BS4, direct hit chance on the target is 44% and 1" scatter 7.4% chance. This gives you effective BS of 3 for small blast weapons. Large blast is effectively BS 4 in same case.
Now, blast weapons are very hard to mathhammer though, as there are too many variables (coherency distance, what direction the blast scatters, how far the blast scatters, how many hits originally, how many hits after scatter), but they're not nearly as bad as you make them look like.

Assuming 2" coherency, you'll be hard pressed to hit more than one model, unless the 3" template lands right between two models. I'm counting the hit chance at 33%, since it's fair nigh impossible to mathhammer scatter.

2d6 scatter averages 7" - 4" for BS = 3" scatter / 2" coherency = 1 model hit, possibly 2. This assumes, of course, that it scatters in the right direction and optimal placement of target models and blast template. If you're firing it at a blob that's at least 7" radius, then you'll likely get a hit if you place the blast template on the center model. It's like a blue moon - it happens, but it's rare enough that you can count a scatter as a miss, and be right more often than not. This isn't 4th edition, where if you have LoS to your blast target you only roll 1d6 scatter. It's always 2d6 - BS (unless you're out of LoS in which case it always scatters the full 2d6).

Large blast is something different entirely, but we're not talking about large blasts, are we?

as mentioned above, a Plasma Cannon targeting the middle man in a squad is likely to hit something. Even when it Scatters. A krak Missile is hit and miss.

Plasma Cannons have the following over ML's:
- Rips through Any armour, forcing invulnerable/cover saves
- Can hit multiple enemies with said power.
- Just blow up a transport? would you rather have a single krak missile, a frag missile or a Plasma blast on the tightly packed contents?
- Same goes for transports that unload in range, drop pods that land in range or units that deepstrike in range.
- Scarab Swarms, Double Strength blast weapon. 1 hit with the blast = 2 ID wounds. With a blast it could be even more hits!
- Double Strength weapon on any t3 multiwounder
- Rips through TMC catalyst FNP

ML has:
- Slightly better Anti Tank
- Better Range
- Possibly better accuracy. Probably worse versus heavy unitswhere scatter will hit something in all likeliehood, but more accurate versus single targets.
- No chance of getting hot

Kaldor wrote:The largest reason that certain weapons are shunned is because of the ridiculous 'single list' mentality people have.

Too many people only write a single list, and never change it, and certainly never change it based on who they are going to be fighting.

Writing a list based on who you're going to be fighting brings a number of problems.

Firstly, if you know specifically what list your opponent is going to be using and you bring a list to tailor it then that is, effectively, cheating. He didn't get to know what list you were bringing, did he? This is classic TFG behaviour and is heavily frowned upon in many gaming groups.

Secondly, if you only know which codex he's using then you have to make some huge assumptions. He's bringing Orks so load up on heavy bolters and flamers, right? Unless he puts six battlewagons on the table.

ETA - almost every time I've inflicted really crushing defeats it's been because the other player tailored to what he thought I was bringing...