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Maybe you guys can help me with this one. The other day I was in my local GW watching some of the games going on. There was a really annoying guy with dark elder there beating up on a noob SM kid. He kept talking about how his Archon with a 2+ wounding agoniser was going to trash the kid’s terminators, and sure enough he proceeded to do so. Not usually being one to interfere in another person’s game I asked him how he was doing that. He said he had a Lhamaean in the Archon’s court and it made all of the poison weapons a 2+ to wound and I left it at that. I then went home and checked my DE book and as far as I can see the Agoniser is NOT a poison weapon, just a power weapon that always wounds on 4+. It is not listed as poison in the codex and I checked through the FAQ and didn’t see anything. Can anyone tell me if I am missing something or was the guy cheating?

If I remember right, that's one of the most misunderstood things in the DE book - he may not have been cheating intentionally, just didn't understand how Lhamaean's rule applies.

Yeah, he's cheating. Slap him round the head with a BGB if he still uses this after you tell him

Agonizer is a pw that wounds on 4+....not a poisoned ccw.

Yeah, he was confused and cheating. Kinda feel bad for his young opponant. What mistifies me is that this was happening at a GW store, where the DE codex was available as were staff to sort this guy out. So what wasthe staff doing while this kid was being screwed over?

worldwarme wrote:Yeah, he was confused and cheating. Kinda feel bad for his young opponant. What mistifies me is that this was happening at a GW store, where the DE codex was available as were staff to sort this guy out. So what wasthe staff doing while this kid was being screwed over?

Maybe they play FB? Or LoTR/WoTR? Or working?

There's no reason to assume the staff new enough or had the time to supervise the game. And the codex being available is irrelevant in some cases - if the SM player really was new, he may not have felt comfortable challenging the "veteran", especially when someone else asked and received an explanation that apparently satisfied them.

worldwarme wrote:Yeah, he was confused and cheating. Kinda feel bad for his young opponant. What mistifies me is that this was happening at a GW store, where the DE codex was available as were staff to sort this guy out. So what wasthe staff doing while this kid was being screwed over?

Unfortunately for the younger kids in the store the manager, who is a nice guy, seems a little over whelmed. He is the only employee in the store. GW won’t let him hire anyone, so he has to do everything himself. He has to run the register, do into games watch out for shop lifters ect. So as long as there is no shouting he really doesn’t get involved with the games going on.

Personally I think the guy was cheating on purpose hopping to exploit the vagueness of the rule and fact that there are not a lot of DE players in that store. He really seemed like the type that gives the game a bad name. I heard him tell a friend of his that plays Eldar that the FAQ says his wave serpent’s energy fields give a +5 invulnerable save, WTF, where could he have gotten that. For somebody that is supposed to be an adult he just seemed like he was trying to make himself look like he knew what he was talking about, but just making it up as he went along to impress the kids.

rigeld2 wrote:

worldwarme wrote:Yeah, he was confused and cheating. Kinda feel bad for his young opponant. What mistifies me is that this was happening at a GW store, where the DE codex was available as were staff to sort this guy out. So what wasthe staff doing while this kid was being screwed over?

Maybe they play FB? Or LoTR/WoTR? Or working?

There's no reason to assume the staff new enough or had the time to supervise the game. And the codex being available is irrelevant in some cases - if the SM player really was new, he may not have felt comfortable challenging the "veteran", especially when someone else asked and received an explanation that apparently satisfied them.

Okay. I am aware that the staff may have been else where in the store attending to someone else or that there were several games going on, etc. I know they can't be everywhere at once, and I am not suggesting they need be. However, this is a Games Workshop, who proudly display a good customer service, attentiveness to the products they sell and the game as a whole. The ones that I have been at (Toronto and Edmonton) have almost always had a staff memeber looking in on the game, espeacially when the player(S) are younger ( Under 18), or newer to the game, (As it would seem with this SM PLayer).
Only once have I walked in to a GW where a game was being played and the two staff memebers were'nt attending to it. One was at the cash, the other was painting models with a little kid, no more than 5 ft from the game.

Which brings me to the next point:
Its a GW shop, not Walmart. Surely during an assault phase where an "Annoying Guy"'s Archon is scoring non-stop Poisoned-Power-weapon wounds on some young kids Terminators, a staff member would've been within earshot or have paid it some attention as Mr. S Baldrick had.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

worldwarme wrote:Yeah, he was confused and cheating. Kinda feel bad for his young opponant. What mistifies me is that this was happening at a GW store, where the DE codex was available as were staff to sort this guy out. So what wasthe staff doing while this kid was being screwed over?

Unfortunately for the younger kids in the store the manager, who is a nice guy, seems a little over whelmed. He is the only employee in the store. GW won’t let him hire anyone, so he has to do everything himself. He has to run the register, do into games watch out for shop lifters ect. So as long as there is no shouting he really doesn’t get involved with the games going on.

Personally I think the guy was cheating on purpose hopping to exploit the vagueness of the rule and fact that there are not a lot of DE players in that store. He really seemed like the type that gives the game a bad name. I heard him tell a friend of his that plays Eldar that the FAQ says his wave serpent’s energy fields give a +5 invulnerable save, WTF, where could he have gotten that. For somebody that is supposed to be an adult he just seemed like he was trying to make himself look like he knew what he was talking about, but just making it up as he went along to impress the kids.

Gotya
That is unfortunate for the manager to not have a staff.
And the DE player does seem to have been being a genuine jerk for trying to pull a fast one on the poor kid.

worldwarme wrote:Its a GW shop, not Walmart. Surely during an assault phase where an "Annoying Guy"'s Archon is scoring non-stop Poisoned-Power-weapon wounds on some young kids Terminators, a staff member would've been within earshot or have paid it some attention as Mr. S Baldrick had.

It's a GW store where the job of the staff is to sell plastic toy kits to kids. There's no guarantee they know the rules beyond the bare basics to demo a game. In fact, every time my group has had an argument bad enough to ask store staff they've managed to give out the wrong answer. Every single time.

Well I am glad I am not going crazy and you guys read it the same way I do. When I first heard the guy I really thought I was missing something. If that was true why would you take anything else on an Archon?

I guess my expierances in GW shops have been differenet than otherposter's here, so I concede that it s not on the Staff to be referees. My logic behind it stems from what I had seen in Edmonton after the DE codex was released. Because everyone had seemingly taken an intrest in them, suddenly everybody was taking notice of the DE Agonizers and Poisoned arsenal. So to hear that somebody was combining the data on his own misinterpration of a well known DE asset, just to beat a kid in a game, well it kind of surpirses me. Again, no slight inteneded towards GW staff, per say, I am just kind of surprised the guy got away with it and I feel bad for the kid.

Spetulhu wrote:It's a GW store where the job of the staff is to sell plastic toy kits to kids. There's no guarantee they know the rules beyond the bare basics to demo a game. In fact, every time my group has had an argument bad enough to ask store staff they've managed to give out the wrong answer. Every single time.

I blame the company for that not the staff, all the training is on selling not understanding the game. To the managers credit in this case, he looked frazzled as it was. It was a busy Saturday all 4 tables had games going on, plus the painting stations, the regular foot traffic and the usual GW babysitting where people drop off their unattended kids all day, you know general chaos. I was glad I didn’t stay to play a game, there was barely enough room to walk around.

Wow. Even on a Saturday they would'nt authorize more staff? The hell is that? Are they closing that location?

worldwarme wrote: I guess my expierances in GW shops have been differenet than otherposter's here, so I concede that it s not on the Staff to be referees. My logic behind it stems from what I had seen in Edmonton after the DE codex was released. Because everyone had seemingly taken an intrest in them, suddenly everybody was taking notice of the DE Agonizers and Poisoned arsenal. So to hear that somebody was combining the data on his own misinterpration of a well known DE asset, just to beat a kid in a game, well it kind of surpirses me. Again, no slight inteneded towards GW staff, per say, I am just kind of surprised the guy got away with it and I feel bad for the kid.

I agree with you that the staff should be keeping an eye on things for the kids, but I just don't think the company give them much to work with. In my area most of the GW stores only have 1 or 2 staff members. Years ago there used to be a manager and at least 3 red shirts on a Saturday. I can't tell you the last time I saw a red shirt in a GW.


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worldwarme wrote:Wow. Even on a Saturday they would'nt authorize more staff? The hell is that? Are they closing that location?

Actually they just opened this store a year and a half ago. It is always busy on the weekends but they won't give the guy more staff. He is only open Wed-Sun, closed on Mon & Tues, because they won't let him work overtime or give him an assistant. The store closes for 45 mins every day so the guy can eat lunch. It is craxy, he turns off the lights and everyone has to leave while he takes lunch.

Okay....wow....I'd be interested in hearing how they (GW) defend that. What if he's sick that day? I feel bad for him. And the whole "No authorized Over time"? Wow. Are you in a small town or district that would warrent such a strange open/ close scheduel?
I'm just not grasping why they would run a location Understaffed as this, or allow it close two days a week, unless its a location that sees no profit.

worldwarme wrote:Okay....wow....I'd be interested in hearing how the defend that. What if he's sick that day? I feel bad for him. And the whole "Naoy authorized Over time"? Wow. Are you ina small town or ditrict that would warrent such a strange open/ close scheduel?
I'm just not grasping why they would run a location Understaffed as this, or allow it close two days a week, unless its a location that sees no profit.

No it’s actually a really busy area. I am in between DC and Baltimore. We used to have 3 stores and a Bunker that was the US HQ store. Then they moved the HQ to Tennessee. About a year after that they moved to Bunker an hour and a half away, which really killed the veteran community in our area. People then scattered to the smaller stores, but GW keeps closing them and moving them around. We still have 3 GW stores in our area but they have moved each of them in the past 2 years and really cut their staff. None of it makes sense for stores in between two major metropolitan cities. It is a shame really because the old bunker was the veteran hang out for close to 15 years and now its all screwed up.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:

Spetulhu wrote:There's no guarantee they know the rules beyond the bare basics to demo a game.

I blame the company for that not the staff, all the training is on selling not understanding the game. To the managers credit in this case, he looked frazzled as it was. It was a busy Saturday all 4 tables had games going on, plus the painting stations, the regular foot traffic and the usual GW babysitting where people drop off their unattended kids all day, you know general chaos. I was glad I didn’t stay to play a game, there was barely enough room to walk around.

True, being overworked doesn't help. And while I don't hold great respect for young staffers it's often even worse if it's a veteran gamer - he has Rogue Trader, 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th edition rules clogging up his head.

Well...........S@#tty.
My sympathies for your GW manager/ staff of 1.
I hope there is some regulars to that shop that'd be willing to volunteer in being Game supervisors on days where, as you said, all 4 tables are filled. It'd help prevent exactly what happened on the OP.: A player abusing a newer player.
(Am I the only one who thinks that being a Bully in 40K or Fantasy is kinda weak and up for interpretation of that person's ethics and insecurities? Feel free not to answer that Grey Knights....not your fault.
)

worldwarme wrote:Well...........S@#tty.
My sympathies for your GW manager/ staff of 1.
I hope there is some regulars to that shop that'd be willing to volunteer in being Game supervisors on days where, as you said, all 4 tables are filled. It'd help prevent exactly what happened on the OP.: A player abusing a newer player.
(Am I the only one who thinks that being a Bully in 40K or Fantasy is kinda weak and up for interpretation of that person's ethics and insecurities? Feel free not to answer that Grey Knights....not your fault.
)

Your not the only one who thinks that way. There have always been the WAAC players but it just seems that these days they are worse than in years past. It is bad especially now since GW caters to younger and younger kids.

Having only a single employee for a given store is actually pretty common.

I have the utmost respect for the guys that manage to do it. It's a LOT of work for a solitary person.

Im not really certain where the idea of the GW demographic getting younger and younger comes from. In the past 10 years ive scarcely seen a kid bellow the age of 16 in any of the stores ive played in.

I have noticed a steady incline in the competitive focus of the groups ive played with. Every thursday feels like a practice for a tournament....ive started shaking it up and getting some narrative games going...eases the tension.

Lightcavalier wrote:Im not really certain where the idea of the GW demographic getting younger and younger comes from. In the past 10 years ive scarcely seen a kid bellow the age of 16 in any of the stores ive played in.

I have noticed a steady incline in the competitive focus of the groups ive played with. Every thursday feels like a practice for a tournament....ive started shaking it up and getting some narrative games going...eases the tension.

At my local store there is about 4 of us in the 30+ bracket a handful of 16-25 year olds and then about 20 12 and unders. My heart bleeds for that manager when ever I walk in and I see the place backed and he is the only one in the store that can drive or by beer.

I don't travel often to my GW (I buy online and use my pool table as a table), but if I overheard something like this, I might just step in. A quick little "no, that's not how that works." would get their attention.

im of mixed opinion here...

while i can sympthazize with the lack of staff leading to the allowance of such blatent cheating.. i also dont think its proper form to interfere in someones game, unless asked by one of the players. simply because i absoultly hate it when bystanders interfere in my games. - this is a major reason i play elsewhere and avoid the flgs.

its not my game, i stay out of it.

now, that said - if the guy was obviously cheating or had something wrong, perhaps ask him to chat with you away from the game, to clarify something. DEFINITLY out of earshot of his opponent, to ask WTF? if his explanation does not meet merit ask to see the dex, or go borrow the customer open copy. if you believe the guy is playing wrong, or made a mistake suggest he correct it... but dont force him to. again, its not your game, and the new player did not ask you to swoop in and champion for him.

in my expierence players who cheat at the game tend to find themselves lacking in opponents very very quickly. this new kid will no doubt realize this fact about this other DE player and learn not to play against him. or if he does, to question and demand codex proof.

finally, i can also understand how the agonizer and lhamean rules can be mixed up or misinterptred. if they dont have acsess to or are ignorant of the online community they may not realize the error, and simply make the leap that the agonizer is poison, since it wounds the same as other poison weapons etc. im not defending cheating.. just offering a sort of sideways look at the issue.

I would say this guy was obviously cheating. I have never played against the guy, but I have seen him around a few times. He is one of those people that goes around saying “the FAQ says____”, but he never has the FAQ on him and it is always some kind of advantage for him or his friend.

This is surprising to me. Looks like I need to re-evaluate my DE lists (and read the codex again) because honestly I thought the same thing he did.

Mr. S Baldrick wrote:I would say this guy was obviously cheating. I have never played against the guy, but I have seen him around a few times. He is one of those people that goes around saying “the FAQ says____”, but he never has the FAQ on him and it is always some kind of advantage for him or his friend.

Well this is an easy one. All the FAQs are available on GWs site. Print off a copy of each army's FAQ, put them in a file folder and bring them with you with your rulebook and codex.

Then if he tries to say what is in a FAQ, you can pull it out and ask him where it says that.

For sure. The best way to stop a cheater who uses vague "the FAQ/dex/brb says x" is to provide the paperwork and ask him to cite his source. If he can't, that's pretty much the point.