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I suppose it's time to stop complaining about the book and start trying to figure out how Empire players are going to deal with the changes.

Lords

General of the Empire - Same stats as captain, gains +1 W, +1 Ld. These benefits don't justify the added cost, so he shouldn't be used where a captain will do. Instead, mount him on an Imperial Griffon and let him go wreak havoc on the enemy. Alternatively, put him on an Imperial Pegasus and load him up with magic items and go warmachine/small unit hunting.

Battle Wizard Lord - Lower points than before, same effectiveness. If you're going to run wizards, he should be the core of your magic retinue. Mounting him on a Wizard Wagon doesn't seem to make a lot of sense unless you really need to field 2 Steam Tanks.

Arch Lector - Same stats as Warrior Priest, gains +1 W, +1 Ld. These benefits don't justify the added cost, so he shouldn't be used where a Warrior Priest will do. The only use is to get a War Altar into your army.

Grand Master - As before, he's the closest thing we've got to a close-combat character. Still not as good as other armies' combat characters, but he's the best we've got in the Lords choice. Might be worth taking a Runefang.

Heroes
Captain of the Empire - Great for units of troops, Hold the Line is useful for both parents and detachments, definitely a must-take. One captain should be a BSB with magical protection (at least a ward save). A second captain can be had cheaply if you limit yourself to mundane items, giving him a 3+ armor save. Don't bother with a magic standard.

Battle Wizard - Standard, cheap, level 1 or 2 wizard. Scroll caddy.

Warrior Priest - IMO, a captain and WP are essential in every infantry block, at least if you're playing 2-3000 points. These guys are worth it for the Hatred alone, bound spells are just icing. Also, I'm pretty sure you can try all 3 bound spells every turn.

Master Engineer - Essential if you''re taking HBVG or HSRB. Moderately useful with cannons, although the change to Master of Ballistics means he's probably going to nominate the wrong cannon. Could be worth taking explosive pigeons just for fun.

Witch Hunter - Good idea, not great execution. His short range and slightly-above-average BS prevent him from being the character-sniping badass he should be. Unless you know you're going against weak enemy characters, he's best left at home. Use the model as an engineer instead.

Core
Halberdiers - good, but not as good as they used to be. Take with a full command (just in case you want to avoid an enemy challenge) and run them in horde formation. These guys are probably the best detachments available - cheaper than swordsmen and you can bum a 5++ from the parent.

Spearmen - Cheap and effective, skip out on the shields (unless, like me, you're a slave to WYSIWYG). A unit in bus formation will hold out as long as you need them too. Not good detachments for any reason.

Swordsmen - Too expensive and their parry save is wasted with the Luminark and Warrior Priests running around. Definitely a unit to be shelved this edition.

Crossbowmen - Got a boost in points and still aren't that good. If you really feel you need ranged shots, take handgunners for the same price.

Handgunners - Decent detachment. The gunline is virtually gone now, so unless you're using them for supporting fire (not a terribly bad idea) as a detachment, they should stay at home. Since all of our boosts (WP, wizard wagons) are close-combat related, it would be better to just take a Halberdier detachment, or even swordsmen. Halberdiers in the flank can swing a combat by up to 4 points before wounds and they have the same strength and chance of hitting as handgunners.

Archers - The only way I can see these guys as useful is as a parent skirmisher unit. I'm not sure why you'd want a parent unit of skirmishers, but if you did, these are the guys to take.

Free Company Militia - I'd suggest these guys are the best detachment unit, although I could be convinced otherwise. I suspect (vs. Halberdiers) two attacks is better than 1 S4 with hatred and rerolls to wound. You give up light armor, but you shouldn't be getting hit too much in the flank. And hopefully you've got a ward save.

Knightly Orders - I liked them last edition, I like them this edition. If you liked them before, you'll like them now that they're slightly cheaper.

Special
Greatswords - I actually like these guys more in this edition than in last, despite them getting a points increase. Their ability to pass Stubborn onto detachments makes them an attractive parent unit. The only limit I see is that detachments for them would count towards Special, and there's already plenty to take in this area.

Demigryph Knights - The best new addition to the list. They're expensive, but the Demigryphs hit hard and the 1+ save (don't take Halberds) from the knight makes them tough to get rid of. Since most of the killing potential comes from the Demigryphs, you'll want to run these in 1 rank. I'd also suggest 4-wide, because that would result in maximum frontage against 5-wide models with 20mm bases (100mm hit by the center two Demigryphs, 2 on the corners).

Reiksguard Knights - Stubborn IC knights for 2 more points. A good substitute for IC knights, IMO.

Huntsmen - Skirmishing scouts, good for being skirmishers and scouts. The Empire army hasn't had something like this before, so they'll be an experiment. Still fairly expensive, given that they'll be ranging ahead of your army, but are probably too slow to reliably get into the enemy backfield.

Pistoliers - Same as before. I don't think their tactics will change in this edition. Light harassment unit.

Outriders - Same as before. I don't think their tactics will change in this edition. Park them out of a charge arc and unload pistols into the enemy. Barding is cheaper, but still not a good option.

Greatcannon - Increased in cost, but I think it will still find its way into most Empire lists. More unreliable (if you take 2) with the nerf to Engineers, which is unfortunate.

Mortar - Really no reason to take this.

Flagellants - They moved to Special, which is nice, but they also went up in price by 20% and their special rule makes them less controllable, and therefore less efficient.

Rares

Helblaster Volley Gun - About as before...but oh look, a price increase. It's slightly more reliable, but if you take one, bring along an Engineer to babysit. Might make a good addition simply because of the paucity of rare choices.

Helstorm Rocket Battery - Probably the best candidate to replace the Mortar. Long range, armor piercing, and 50% higher strength than the Mortar. If you need to take out light infantry, it's decent. Horribly unreliable (to hit), but decent. Like the HBVG, requires an engineer to babysit.

Steam Tank - Took a major hit to Toughness, but it's marginally more predictable. Random movement is actually a major improvement, preventing charge reactions and allowing you to charge 360 degrees. Which is good, because it's going to get beat to hell in close combat. Cheaper price means you can field 2 without worry in a 2000 point list.

Celestial Hurricanum - The better of the two Mage wagons because it compliments Warrior Priests. Cheap enough that you can field it with your two Steam Tanks in a 2520 point game. Don't take two. If you've got the points for a second one, take the Luminark of Hysh or some more state troops (protip: don't take the Luminark of Hysh)

Luminark of Hysh - Worse of the two Mage wagons because Warrior Priests do what it does better. Also, the spell can be replaced by a (more likely to fire) cannon. Cheap enough you can field it in a 2480 point game with two Steam Tanks. As with the Hurricanum: don't take two.

If the Hurricanum and Luminark stacked their Locus of Azyr and Locus of Hysh special abilities, they would be close to worth their cost. If they had a 5++ save, they'd be worth taking. If the Aura of Protection stacked, they'd be amazing.

biccat wrote:I suppose it's time to stop complaining about the book and start trying to figure out how Empire players are going to deal with the changes.

YOU DON'T SAY



Anyway, I would disagree with the swordsmen and the witchhunter.

A ranged sniper attack with KB is nothing to be sniffed at, and I am sure there is a use for him.

Swordsmen I think could be used for detachments, since you could use the parent unit's ranks and use the swordsmen to harass an attacking unit's flank.
The parry saves would come in handy I think.

Still, it seems like a decent list.

YOU DON'T SAY

Kind of hard to forget it when sone of them are still screaming about it not being overpowered.

Anyways I feel hellblasters are the new mortars to say the least, certainly going to hurt if you roll very well.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

YOU DON'T SAY

Kind of hard to forget it when sone of them are still screaming about it not being overpowered.

Anyways I feel hellblasters are the new mortars to say the least, certainly going to hurt if you roll very well.

What are the new rules for the helblaster anyway?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:YOU DON'T SAY.

Please don't meme up the thread. Thanks.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Swordsmen I think could be used for detachments, since you could use the parent unit's ranks and use the swordsmen to harass an attacking unit's flank.
The parry saves would come in handy I think.

Prayers carry over to the detachments...so not really.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:A ranged sniper attack with KB is nothing to be sniffed at, and I am sure there is a use for him.

There might be a use for him. But it's going to be against something that can't charge 12"...because that's the range on his ranged attack.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:What are the new rules for the helblaster anyway?

Creates D3 small blasts rather than 1 large blast.

I thought helblasters were the multibarrelled cannons.

I never said anything about prayers. I said parry saves.

Having 12" range never stopped skinks. I am sure you can stick the WH into a unit of skirmishers. Unless Empire doesn't get those.
If that's the case, what the hell are Huntsmen then?

biccat wrote:Please don't meme up the thread. Thanks.

You realize there's something like 3 threads already on this same topic?

Memes need a deserving home

Well the Helblaster is less likely to blow up methinks. 1 Misfire only halves the other two barrel guns attack instead of having a chance of getting the whole gun in trouble. Of course then again 3 misfires is an automatic kaboom while firing 30 shots but that is quite rare I bet (not to mention an Engineer nearby will really help them both with the reroll and the BS4)

I think the WH would be amazing if they kept the Dragon Bow. Maybe too amazing (guess thats why they dropped it?)

Edit: Wait are we talking about the volley gun or the rockets?

kenshin620 wrote:Well the Helblaster is less likely to blow up methinks. 1 Misfire only halves the other two barrel guns attack instead of having a chance of getting the whole gun in trouble. Of course then again 3 misfires is an automatic kaboom while firing 30 shots but that is quite rare I bet (not to mention an Engineer nearby will really help them both with the reroll and the BS4)

I think the WH would be amazing if they kept the Dragon Bow. Maybe too amazing (guess thats why they dropped it?)

Edit: Wait are we talking about the volley gun or the rockets?

Zeb was talking about the gun that fires 3D6 S5 AP shots. I can never get the empire's artillery names right to much.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I never said anything about prayers. I said parry saves.

Prayers grant a 5++ ward save that works in close combat. Parry is a 6++ ward save that only works in combat.

Parry is worse than prayers.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Having 12" range never stopped skinks.

Skinks also aren't 50 points each and don't take points out of your Hero choice. If they are, then I've been playing against a lot of cheating Lizardmen players. Their poisoned weapons also work against everyone, not just a single model selected at the start of the game.

biccat wrote: Cheap enough that you can field it with your two Steam Tanks in a 2520 point game.

...do people play 2520pt games? (or 2480 for that matter?)

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

biccat wrote: Cheap enough that you can field it with your two Steam Tanks in a 2520 point game.

...do people play 2520pt games? (or 2480 for that matter?)

I was thinking this same thing.


And maybe like a 4 wtich hunter hit squad if you can get them multishot in some way...

They are insanely cheap. They are multi-shot by buying multiples.

biccat wrote:General of the Empire - Same stats as captain, gains +1 W, +1 Ld. These benefits don't justify the added cost, so he shouldn't be used where a captain will do. Instead, mount him on an Imperial Griffon and let him go wreak havoc on the enemy. Alternatively, put him on an Imperial Pegasus and load him up with magic items and go warmachine/small unit hunting.

I think a captain on a pegasus is probably just as effective as a general for war machine hunting. And the griffon is probably still too expensive/too weak.

Battle Wizard Lord - Lower points than before, same effectiveness. If you're going to run wizards, he should be the core of your magic retinue.

I think he's probably the only Lord character I'm really keen on, to be honest. The General isn't needed as captains do the same for a bit less, and Arch Lectors don't add much at all over warrior priests. Grand Masters are even worse than in previous books.

Captain of the Empire - Great for units of troops, Hold the Line is useful for both parents and detachments, definitely a must-take. One captain should be a BSB with magical protection (at least a ward save). A second captain can be had cheaply if you limit yourself to mundane items, giving him a 3+ armor save. Don't bother with a magic standard.

Yeah, one of these guys, with BSB reroll, makes it near impossible to break a steadfast unit. And when you consider the BSB is also a captain with Hold the Line...

Trick will be keeping them alive, most canny opponents will target them early.

Warrior Priest - IMO, a captain and WP are essential in every infantry block, at least if you're playing 2-3000 points. These guys are worth it for the Hatred alone, bound spells are just icing. Also, I'm pretty sure you can try all 3 bound spells every turn.

You can try all three each turn, and they go off on a 3+. So you could just spam one dice spells, succeed two times out of three and just dare your lvl 4 wizard opponent into using 1 dice dispels.

Master Engineer - Essential if you''re taking HBVG or HSRB. Moderately useful with cannons, although the change to Master of Ballistics means he's probably going to nominate the wrong cannon. Could be worth taking explosive pigeons just for fun.

Real shame they hosed the engineer. I'm thinking about using one, positioned between a helstorm (notice they changed it from helstrom?) and a helblaster, using his ability on the helstorm until the helblaster is within range.

Witch Hunter - Good idea, not great execution. His short range and slightly-above-average BS prevent him from being the character-sniping badass he should be. Unless you know you're going against weak enemy characters, he's best left at home. Use the model as an engineer instead.

If nothing else he's pretty cheap, but I think it'd be unlikely for him to justify his points too often.

Halberdiers - good, but not as good as they used to be. Take with a full command (just in case you want to avoid an enemy challenge) and run them in horde formation. These guys are probably the best detachments available - cheaper than swordsmen and you can bum a 5++ from the parent.

Ultimately I think these guys are going to remain the core choppy element of most Empire armies. They used to be too cheap, now they're probably about right. I expect the anvil role to be switched from Swordsmen to Spearmen (and am thinking about just asking my opponents if they'll accept me using my swordsmen as spearmen in future games).

Crossbowmen - Got a boost in points and still aren't that good. If you really feel you need ranged shots, take handgunners for the same price.

I've always found the extra range of crossbowmen preferable to the AP of the handgunners. Cost increase was sucky for both units either way, even at the old price I didn't put either unit in my competitive armies.

Halberdiers in the flank can swing a combat by up to 4 points before wounds and they have the same strength and chance of hitting as handgunners.

You don't auto-charge the flank anymore. I haven't tried it out yet, but I suspect it's going to be fairly fiddly to keep within 3 inches, keep back far enough to make sure the detachment doesn't get charged, and be out wide enough to lined up for a flank charge.

Free Company Militia - I'd suggest these guys are the best detachment unit, although I could be convinced otherwise. I suspect (vs. Halberdiers) two attacks is better than 1 S4 with hatred and rerolls to wound. You give up light armor, but you shouldn't be getting hit too much in the flank. And hopefully you've got a ward save.

With the supporting ranks rule, it isn't two attacks at Str 3 vs one attack at Str 2, it's 3 attacks at Str 3 or 2 attacks at Str 4. And that comparison favour the two Str 4 attacks against everything other than unarmoured T3 opponents. Free Company remain a fluff choice, though the difference is fairly marginal.

Knightly Orders - I liked them last edition, I like them this edition. If you liked them before, you'll like them now that they're slightly cheaper.

And Inner Circle are core now, so you can take a load of knights for a pretty decent price.

Greatswords - I actually like these guys more in this edition than in last, despite them getting a points increase. Their ability to pass Stubborn onto detachments makes them an attractive parent unit. The only limit I see is that detachments for them would count towards Special, and there's already plenty to take in this area.

I like these guys exactly as much as before. They're just too expensive for a competitive game. Other than flagellants, these were the guys absolutely crying out for a price drop, and instead it went the other way.

They're not terrible, like Marcus Wolfhart is terrible, but if you want as strong a list as the Empire can field, these guys aren't going to be part of it.

Demigryph Knights - The best new addition to the list. They're expensive, but the Demigryphs hit hard and the 1+ save (don't take Halberds) from the knight makes them tough to get rid of. Since most of the killing potential comes from the Demigryphs, you'll want to run these in 1 rank. I'd also suggest 4-wide, because that would result in maximum frontage against 5-wide models with 20mm bases (100mm hit by the center two Demigryphs, 2 on the corners).

I think they look excellent too. Note that cavalry halberds don't replace the shield, only the lance (seems lots of people have missed this). So the knight can have Str 5 every turn and a 1+ save. They're basically ensorcelled blades.

Reiksguard Knights - Stubborn IC knights for 2 more points. A good substitute for IC knights, IMO.

It's funny, I grimace at the 27 points in a way I just don't grimace at the 25 points for IC knights. Might just be me.

Huntsmen - Skirmishing scouts, good for being skirmishers and scouts. The Empire army hasn't had something like this before, so they'll be an experiment. Still fairly expensive, given that they'll be ranging ahead of your army, but are probably too slow to reliably get into the enemy backfield.

Maybe a less mobile replacement for pistoliers, that are handy in that they can survive more missile fire?

Outriders - Same as before. I don't think their tactics will change in this edition. Park them out of a charge arc and unload pistols into the enemy. Barding is cheaper, but still not a good option.

They benefit a little from handgunners going up to 9 points, so the old 3 wounds or vanguard & mobility debate has changed a little.

Mortar - Really no reason to take this.

Against T3 opponents, especially Elves, it remains a solid unit. Which tells you a fair bit about how good it used to be. If there's T4 in your area its pretty bad, though.

Flagellants - They moved to Special, which is nice, but they also went up in price by 20% and their special rule makes them less controllable, and therefore less efficient.

They were a marginal choice before, in my opinion. With the reduced quality of their special rule I think they've become fairly terrible.

Helblaster Volley Gun - About as before...but oh look, a price increase. It's slightly more reliable, but if you take one, bring along an Engineer to babysit. Might make a good addition simply because of the paucity of rare choices.

It's chance of exploding is way down, and an engineer makes it capable of not exploding and having BS 4 at the same time. I think it got a massive boost, and an engineer/helblaster will be a key element of many armies.

Helstorm Rocket Battery - Probably the best candidate to replace the Mortar. Long range, armor piercing, and 50% higher strength than the Mortar. If you need to take out light infantry, it's decent. Horribly unreliable (to hit), but decent. Like the HBVG, requires an engineer to babysit.

I think the option to save points might be one engineer, babysitting the helblaster early, then switching to the helblaster when it comes into range.

Steam Tank - Took a major hit to Toughness, but it's marginally more predictable. Random movement is actually a major improvement, preventing charge reactions and allowing you to charge 360 degrees. Which is good, because it's going to get beat to hell in close combat. Cheaper price means you can field 2 without worry in a 2000 point list.

It's easy to hurt, but it suffers a lot less from wounds (before you could make it useless with a couple of lucky wounds). The boost to the steam gun helps as well, to give this thing a chance of doing enough damage to justify it's points. No longer just a points denial/nuisance engine, I'm quite looking forward to putting mine back onto the field.

Celestial Hurricanum - The better of the two Mage wagons because it compliments Warrior Priests. Cheap enough that you can field it with your two Steam Tanks in a 2520 point game. Don't take two. If you've got the points for a second one, take the Luminark of Hysh or some more state troops (protip: don't take the Luminark of Hysh)

I'm fairly non-plussed with both of the wizard engines to be honest. It's a lot of point for a power die/dispel die, a mild bubble bonus, and a bound spell.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:A ranged sniper attack with KB is nothing to be sniffed at, and I am sure there is a use for him.

That ranged attack is at 12"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:What are the new rules for the helblaster anyway?

Basically the same as before, except that you don't roll on the misfire chart for every misfire. Instead one misfire result halves the shots fired from the other two barrels, two misfires makes you roll one the chart, and three auto explodes your helblaster. So basically, counter-intuititively, the odds of a helblaster exploding are less than other artillery pieces (odds of two or three dice coming up misfire out of three dice is 7.87%, compared to 16.67% of one dice rolled coming up misfer by itself).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:...do people play 2520pt games? (or 2480 for that matter?)

Guy once asked me if I wanted to play some bizarrely exact number of points, like 2,346. I guess he wrote up exact what he wanted in his list, then went down the club expecting someone else to be willing to do what he wants. I have no idea if he found a game or not.

biccat wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I never said anything about prayers. I said parry saves.

Prayers grant a 5++ ward save that works in close combat. Parry is a 6++ ward save that only works in combat.

Parry is worse than prayers.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Having 12" range never stopped skinks.

Skinks also aren't 50 points each and don't take points out of your Hero choice. If they are, then I've been playing against a lot of cheating Lizardmen players. Their poisoned weapons also work against everyone, not just a single model selected at the start of the game.

Skinks are also T2, BS3 No armor save and will run away as soon as you slap them. They get poison, but they don't have killing blow with S4 AP attacks, which I think is a bit more dangerous.

Skink Chiefs are just over 50pts each for a hero slot, and they don't get killing blow, they still have fairly terrible ld, still no armor and you have to pay for any ranged attack.

Having a 50pts assassin HQ with killing blow, sniper, relatively good ld, and S4 AP attacks for free is a bargain in my books.

sebster wrote:I think a captain on a pegasus is probably just as effective as a general for war machine hunting. And the griffon is probably still too expensive/too weak.

I agree with you here, plus I think the Griffon looks stupid, so he won't be fielded anyway. The problem is that there are way too many options in the Hero choice. It would be easy to fill up on points there if you're not careful.

sebster wrote:You don't auto-charge the flank anymore. I haven't tried it out yet, but I suspect it's going to be fairly fiddly to keep within 3 inches, keep back far enough to make sure the detachment doesn't get charged, and be out wide enough to lined up for a flank charge.

It'll be the same as in 6th edition - it requires some finesse, but it's not too difficult.

sebster wrote:And Inner Circle are core now, so you can take a load of knights for a pretty decent price.

Hadn't noticed that before. I guess that gives them a slight edge over Reiksguard.

sebster wrote:I think they look excellent too. Note that cavalry halberds don't replace the shield, only the lance (seems lots of people have missed this). So the knight can have Str 5 every turn and a 1+ save. They're basically ensorcelled blades.

You don't get the +1 armor save from the shield while in close combat. Halberd is a 2H weapon, so you can't use a shield.

sebster wrote:I think the option to save points might be one engineer, babysitting the helblaster early, then switching to the helblaster helstorm when it comes into range.

I think the Helstorm will continue to be an area denial, more useful at keeping the enemy away from an area than actually killing things. In my experience, people don't like to get within 24" of it.

sebster wrote:I'm fairly non-plussed with both of the wizard engines to be honest. It's a lot of point for a power die/dispel die, a mild bubble bonus, and a bound spell.

It's not a lot of points, especially if you're fielding two hordes of spearmen or halberdiers. Giving them +1 to hit is incredibly useful, especially if they're rerolling hits and wounds.

But they're fire magnets with a poor save, they'll likely go down fast.

sebster wrote:Guy once asked me if I wanted to play some bizarrely exact number of points, like 2,346. I guess he wrote up exact what he wanted in his list, then went down the club expecting someone else to be willing to do what he wants. I have no idea if he found a game or not.

...it was a hint as to the point cost of the units.

Hmm I am curious, I wonder how does the new Steam Tank hold up against the Land Battleship?

Oh and I think great swords with stubborn are still good. Having a decent block of them can at least put on some pain, stick a warrior priest in there and both the unit and its detachs have stubborn, hatred, and whatever prayer that got off.

Great Swords can get a magic banner which is huge for Empire

kenshin620 wrote:Hmm I am curious, I wonder how does the new Steam Tank hold up against the Land Battleship?

Oh and I think great swords with stubborn are still good. Having a decent block of them can at least put on some pain, stick a warrior priest in there and both the unit and its detachs have stubborn, hatred, and whatever prayer that got off.

I can vouch that stubborn soldiers with Great Weapons and hatred can be brutal to enemies, keeping them locked up for a couple of turns and doing some nasty damage. My experience is from Dark Elf Executioners within 12" of a Cauldron of Blood. I had a unit which endured a Tomb King chariot charge and held it for a turn whilst my Hydra got into position and smashed their flank. Empire Greatswords are (very slightly) cheaper, with a better armour save but no Killing Blow and lower weapon skill and strength. If they can get the buff which allows for re-rolling failed wounds then they will be a very nasty unit for that first turn while Hatred is active.

Inner Circle Knights being core basically opens the door to having actual cavalry hammers (besides Demigryphs). Toss a mounted warrior priest in with a block of knights, they're hatred S6 on the charge and then possibly re-rolling failed To-Wounds thanks to the Hammer of Sigmar bound prayer. The Steel Standard makes them very tolerant of mediocre positioning and long-ish charges. 1+ armor with potentially a 5++ ward is pretty darn durable too.

Cannons cost the same as the Luminark, which is a little absurd seeing as one of them is also a S5 T5 W5 chariot with a 6++ ward aura and dispel dice generation. If there's anything to take away from the Ironblaster in the OK book, it's that having your artillery capable of also doing things like flank/support charging is really useful. Sure it's a bound spell and can be neutered by dispell rolls, but this new Empire army has bound spells all over the place and is going to be heavily reliant on playing a good shell game with your opponent's dispel pool. I feel like a Wizard Lord is even more essential so that you have a big stick with which to bluff your opponent out of dice.

Flagellants remain a very solid unit, the price change is negligible and does not blunt their effectiveness. They're a hammer that automatically morphs into an anvil. There's no longer the unit size cap so they'll last longer, and with a 2+ martyr wound roll they punch well above their weight. Personally I use greatswords for aesthetics, but I don't see any reason to stop using Flagellants in the new book just because of the point increase.

Personally I'm shelving all of my handgunners (and I'm on the fence regarding my pistoliers). They struggled to perform at 8 points a guy and for 9, it feels like a complete waste. Maybe at higher point values they can guard my warmachines, but at lower values (<1500) they're comically terrible for the cost. 90 points for 10 BS3 shots, hell you could replace them like and kind with a unit of archers. Might have to try that.

I'm still struggling to decide what to do with my swordsmen.

Handgunners were never good?
Strange, I thought they were fairly decent. I mean, they do have S4 AP attacks, and they can stand and shoot.

What did the empire use as their ranged guys then?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Handgunners were never good?
Strange, I thought they were fairly decent. I mean, they do have S4 AP attacks, and they can stand and shoot.

What did the empire use as their ranged guys then?

Lots of Mortars judging from the whining which has been going on

Crossbows

Oh right, derp.
Well, I guess the extra 6" range isn't a bad trade off.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

biccat wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I never said anything about prayers. I said parry saves.

Prayers grant a 5++ ward save that works in close combat. Parry is a 6++ ward save that only works in combat.

Parry is worse than prayers.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Having 12" range never stopped skinks.

Skinks also aren't 50 points each and don't take points out of your Hero choice. If they are, then I've been playing against a lot of cheating Lizardmen players. Their poisoned weapons also work against everyone, not just a single model selected at the start of the game.

Skinks are also T2, BS3 No armor save and will run away as soon as you slap them. They get poison, but they don't have killing blow with S4 AP attacks, which I think is a bit more dangerous.

Skink Chiefs are just over 50pts each for a hero slot, and they don't get killing blow, they still have fairly terrible ld, still no armor and you have to pay for any ranged attack.

Having a 50pts assassin HQ with killing blow, sniper, relatively good ld, and S4 AP attacks for free is a bargain in my books.

You're both missing the point the main reason skinks are a better harras unit than that flashy warmblood is M6.

HoverBoy wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:

biccat wrote:

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I never said anything about prayers. I said parry saves.

Prayers grant a 5++ ward save that works in close combat. Parry is a 6++ ward save that only works in combat.

Parry is worse than prayers.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Having 12" range never stopped skinks.

Skinks also aren't 50 points each and don't take points out of your Hero choice. If they are, then I've been playing against a lot of cheating Lizardmen players. Their poisoned weapons also work against everyone, not just a single model selected at the start of the game.

Skinks are also T2, BS3 No armor save and will run away as soon as you slap them. They get poison, but they don't have killing blow with S4 AP attacks, which I think is a bit more dangerous.

Skink Chiefs are just over 50pts each for a hero slot, and they don't get killing blow, they still have fairly terrible ld, still no armor and you have to pay for any ranged attack.

Having a 50pts assassin HQ with killing blow, sniper, relatively good ld, and S4 AP attacks for free is a bargain in my books.

You're both missing the point the main reason skinks are a better harras unit than that flashy warmblood is M6.

That is true.
But skinks are not intended to assassinate characters. The WH is.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:
But skinks are not intended to assassinate characters. The WH is.

Missing the point. If the witch hunter was a piece of magical equipment (that made the unit immune to terror but still take fear checks, and provided MR2 to boot) he'd be around 35-40 points. Since he does all that plus a 4s-all-across statline, even before we take into account his accusation and anti-character properties he's not a bad deal.

The best way to run him with the intent to assassinate a wizard is probably with a brace of pistols, but that's a poor strategy for an infantry block. For everything else the great weapon is better so I'm running mine with just the one pistol and using him as a little combat res boost.

I like witch hunter with meteoric armor. 3S4 attacks will kill most unit champs, sooner or later I'll work my way toward the real target.

Another though is comet bombing. MR2 gives 5+ vs spells. Run out and grab an enemy, then start dropping comet into combat.

If witch hunter could get crossbow, I'd take 4 or 5 of them.

-Matt

All those swordsmen... useless now D:

So it looks like the core troop of choice now is Halberds and spears?

As others have said, I still see some potential for the WH, but everything else seems to confirm what I thought when reading through the book. Glad I got so many greatswords.

biccat wrote:I agree with you here, plus I think the Griffon looks stupid, so he won't be fielded anyway. The problem is that there are way too many options in the Hero choice. It would be easy to fill up on points there if you're not careful.

I'm happy I got the old Griffon model, I really don't like the new one at all. This is just a copy of the model I found on line, not mine;



And yeah, there's a lot of pressure on heroes. The captasus might fall out of favour just because there's so much pressure in that category now.

It'll be the same as in 6th edition - it requires some finesse, but it's not too difficult.

Yeah, I presume you determine charge arc from the target unit's eventual destination (contact with the regimental unit) and not from where it declared the charge?

Either way, with premeasuring it shouldn't be too tough.

You don't get the +1 armor save from the shield while in close combat. Halberd is a 2H weapon, so you can't use a shield.

Right you are. Somewhere in the rumours there was a thing about cavalry halberds being one handed, and when I saw you didn't lose the shield for picking the halberd that confirmed that in my mind - I didn't check there was actually a rule for cavalry halberds that was seperate. My mistake.

I think the Helstorm will continue to be an area denial, more useful at keeping the enemy away from an area than actually killing things. In my experience, people don't like to get within 24" of it.

If you have enough artillery to make the enemy come to you (and you should, even with the greater prices) and you castle up in one section of the board, then the enemy is going to have to come to you. Put the gun up front, between line regiments, and so if the enemy wants to assault those line regiments it has to expose itself to fire from the helblaster.

It's not a lot of points, especially if you're fielding two hordes of spearmen or halberdiers. Giving them +1 to hit is incredibly useful, especially if they're rerolling hits and wounds.

True, it isn't that many points, and does stack well with warrior priest bonuses. But like you said it'll go down quickly to anyone who cares to take it out.

...it was a hint as to the point cost of the units.

Yeah, I know. I just like telling that story.


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kenshin620 wrote:Oh and I think great swords with stubborn are still good. Having a decent block of them can at least put on some pain, stick a warrior priest in there and both the unit and its detachs have stubborn, hatred, and whatever prayer that got off.

I think greatswords ability to pass stubborn off onto their detachments, and I'm thinking missile troops deployed two ranks deep, could be invaluable. With a warrior priest granting a 5+ ward, they will hang around a lot longer than they used to.


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CthuluIsSpy wrote:Handgunners were never good?
Strange, I thought they were fairly decent. I mean, they do have S4 AP attacks, and they can stand and shoot.

What did the empire use as their ranged guys then?

They used either crossbowmen or handgunners. They weren't ever that good though, it's just that you could take a load of mortars and some other artillery and the missile troops would add a nice bonus to the devestation from your war machines. That's not really a viable strategy with the new book (which is a good thing, because it was boring to play and more boring to play against) so instead it leaves missile troops as very expensive humans with no combat equipment, who are likely to score about 5 wounds against a T4, 5+ save in shooting for every 100 points you spend on them. Which is okay, but not great.


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frest wrote:Missing the point. If the witch hunter was a piece of magical equipment (that made the unit immune to terror but still take fear checks, and provided MR2 to boot) he'd be around 35-40 points. Since he does all that plus a 4s-all-across statline, even before we take into account his accusation and anti-character properties he's not a bad deal.

You can get fear causing items, which reduce terror to fear, for like 10 points - there's an item in the Empire book that gives you fear and an extra point of armour for 15 points. So something that just knocks terror down to fear, and doesn't inflict fear itself would maybe be worth 5 points. MR is potentially useful, though the current price line it costs you is way too much, which is why you never see it. I think as a piece of gear you'd probably see the Witchhunters stat line go for about 25 points, and be rarely taken for that price - not because it's expensive, but because it's rarely useful.

Which leaves you with a guy with two attacks, and 4s across his stat line, with killing blow against a specific opponent and some nice advantages against certain enemy armies. For 25 points, more or less, it's about what you'd expect to get. Not great, but not terrible either. Basically, it's unlikely this guy is going to play a decisive part in many games he plays, but nor is it very likely that his cost will prevent you winning many either.

And I think it might be best to keep him as is, pistol and handweapon, because killing blow is made more useful the more attacks you have.