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If I am getting shot at by lets say Khorne Bezerkers bolt pistols...

And I have a Space Marine Tactical Squad in cover and I want to have them take a LD test before they get charged and lose CC by that melee unit and using combat tactics just book it...

Could one use the cover save over the armor save?

usmcmidn wrote:If I am getting shot at by lets say Khorne Bezerkers bolt pistols...

And I have a Space Marine Tactical Squad in cover and I want to have them take a LD test before they get charged and lose CC by that melee unit and using combat tactics just book it...

Could one use the cover save over the armor save?

No. You must always use your best save. Page 24 BRB

Ah thx for pointing that out.

rigeld has it. You must take the best available save.

rigeld2 wrote:

usmcmidn wrote:If I am getting shot at by lets say Khorne Bezerkers bolt pistols...

And I have a Space Marine Tactical Squad in cover and I want to have them take a LD test before they get charged and lose CC by that melee unit and using combat tactics just book it...

Could one use the cover save over the armor save?

[In the example you provided the answer is] No. You must always use your best save. Page 24 BRB

Added the orange for clarity.

To answer the question of: "Could one use [a] cover save over the armor save?"

This is possible, it happen with Orks all the time, since regular boyz have an armor save of 6, and cover is usually 4+ or 5+

But rig has it 100% "You must always use your best save. Page 24 BRB"

Just don't ask what "best" means when you have a 3+ save and a 4+ re-rollable save...

Yep, we are really serious.....don't ask that question......Really!........Don't!

Steelmage99 wrote:Yep, we are really serious.....don't ask that question......Really!........Don't!

Actually the rulebook has the answer - it is the lowest numeric save, and does not care about any other factors. Page 16, from memory.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

Steelmage99 wrote:Yep, we are really serious.....don't ask that question......Really!........Don't!

Actually the rulebook has the answer - it is the lowest numeric save, and does not care about any other factors. Page 16, from memory.

Not from what I can see.

BRB 24 deals with models with more than one save: "the model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save." The section goes on to provide an example using a SM Chaplain, explaining that he would select a 3+ cover (from fortified ruins) rather than the 4++ he already has because it will "give him the best chance of surviving."

elrabin wrote:Not from what I can see.

BRB 24 deals with models with more than one save: "the model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save." The section goes on to provide an example using a SM Chaplain, explaining that he would select a 3+ cover (from fortified ruins) rather than the 4++ he already has because it will "give him the best chance of surviving."

Page 6, BRB. third paragraph. Specifically defines a lower numbered armor save as being better.

Close, page 6 not 16.... thanks for providing the proper citation

"has the advantage of always using the best available save"

I guess raises the question, as originally posed that what if taking the lowest save doesn't confer an advantage ?

Although hoping to take casualties so you can break and run is a fairly obscure advantage for sure.

You have to look at the advantage within that particular phase of the game. Yes it is a disadvantage in the context of the next 2 phases but in the shooting phase it is of advantage to keep more men alive and as such roll the 3+ baby.

liturgies of blood wrote:You have to look at the advantage within that particular phase of the game. Yes it is a disadvantage in the context of the next 2 phases but in the shooting phase it is of advantage to keep more men alive and as such roll the 3+ baby.

Where does it say to restrict the advantage to a specific phase?

I was responding to a question that is not exactly grounded in the strictures of the rules.

The advantage is talked about as the armour save that confers the best chance of surviving and it goes on to say that you use the best numerical save.
The advantage is looked at solely on the saves to be made not on the ongoing stratagem you wish to employ. As armour saves are made in a particular phase you look at the saves available and use the best, not the worst so you can fall back, regroup and charge as you are a space marine and your opponent can't catch you.

It doesn't actually say "best" it just says that characteristics in general get better the higher the number and armour is the opposite which is not really an indication of "best". All it is saying is that a low armour number is better than a high armour number, it makes no comparison with other things that save.

The best armour save is the one out of a choice that confers to you the best advantage. If your going to argue the meaning of best you have to look at it in the context of how it is used.

I feel compelled to point out that I do not agree with any of this. I've said it before and I'll say it again the language of the BRB is too weak to argue on the basis of usage. Anyone cranking these sorts of interpretations in a game is going to find themselves pretty lonely pretty in my group.

Saving on 3+ is always better than a 4+ regardless of whether it's an invulnerable or armor save.

When it comes to a rerollable, use the best. A 4+ rerollable is better than a 3+ non-rerollable.

Check my math:
3+ = 66% success

4+ = 50%
rerollable = 75% success

In answer to the original posts question - no, you cannot chose take a worse save so you can fail your morale and flee or any other tactically preferred consequence.

elrabin wrote:BRB 24 deals with models with more than one save: "the model only ever gets to make one saving throw, but it has the advantage of always using the best available save." The section goes on to provide an example using a SM Chaplain, explaining that he would select a 3+ cover (from fortified ruins) rather than the 4++ he already has because it will "give him the best chance of surviving."

This is my interpretation of this as well - the latter portion, my bolding. Whatever gives the model the best chance of surviving the wound, not the numerically better one. Otherwise you'd technically be forced to take an armor save for terminators against things which allow no armor save and automatically fail it, yes? In any event I once posted this question a while back, and it went on a bit and got locked with this excellent summation from Insaniak:

Unfortunately, you've hit one of those topics that gets discussed to death on a regular basis with no clear consensus.

There are several different viewpoints:
- You must choose the best save numerically
- You must choose the best save based on the situation or
- You aren't actually required to use the best save, you just have the ability to do so, and which one you use is entirely up to the player.


From my experience, the third one is really how it winds up being played. I've never seen a situation arise on the table where a player has questioned the save their opponent chooses to use.


Locking this one now, as it will inevitably spiral down into the same tired old argument as last time.

In your specific case, however, as your goal is not to have them survive the wound but rather to force a LD test, I'd disallow it as bad faith.

^ Thats what I was thinking... But again it makes sense to take the better save.

There is the possable situation where you could choose between 2 equal numbered saves and pick the worse one of the 2.

For example you could have some TH/SS terminators in 3+ cover but also effected by Null Zone. You would be able to choose to use your 3+ invuln instead of 3+ cover if you wanted to fail saves.


Highly unlikely but its there.

I'd have to look at the wording for Null Zone - does it say you fail all invul saves, or that you cannot make any invul saves?

If it's the latter, you can't pick your 3+ save.

its that you reroll successful invuln saves.

Fair enough - yeah, you could pick that save if you really wanted to.

Another good point with this is Lychgaurd with sword and board, sometimes they might RATHER take the 4++ to redirect fire, but they cannot if the are able to use the 3+.

I think that is a strange rule too...AP 3 or less you can reflect, AP 4 or more you can not.

helixthief wrote:Another good point with this is Lychgaurd with sword and board, sometimes they might RATHER take the 4++ to redirect fire, but they cannot if the are able to use the 3+.

I think that is a strange rule too...AP 3 or less you can reflect, AP 4 or more you can not.

"
In those cases, though, wouldn't the 4++ be the "best" in the situation?

No, because as was pointed out the BEST save is the lowest numerical value.

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because as was pointed out the BEST save is the lowest numerical value.

Except that it isn't, or else terminators couldn't save against plasma guns.

After all, they ALWAYS have to take that 2+, because it's numerically better than that 5+.

Even when it automatically fails.

Unit1126PLL wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because as was pointed out the BEST save is the lowest numerical value.

Except that it isn't, or else terminators couldn't save against plasma guns.

After all, they ALWAYS have to take that 2+, because it's numerically better than that 5+.

Even when it automatically fails.

AP doesn't cause saves to auto-fail, you can't even use it. So the 2+ isn't available as a save, which makes the 5++ the only available save, so it's the best numerical save.

rigeld2 wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:No, because as was pointed out the BEST save is the lowest numerical value.

Except that it isn't, or else terminators couldn't save against plasma guns.

After all, they ALWAYS have to take that 2+, because it's numerically better than that 5+.

Even when it automatically fails.

AP doesn't cause saves to auto-fail, you can't even use it. So the 2+ isn't available as a save, which makes the 5++ the only available save, so it's the best numerical save.

I don't have my rulebook on me, but I was under the impression it was the other way around, could you cite that rule for me?

Sorry - I'm staying at a buddies house for a couple of days. And it's 5 AM.

"If the weapon's Armour Piercing value is equal to or lower than the model's armour save then it is sufficiently powerful to punch straight through the armour and the target gets no armour save at all." BRB, pg 20
So the best available save for terminator in open wounded by plasma gun is 5++.