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So, my adepticon list has got trolls. It has also got Throgg. Trolls have 3 attacks at ws3, s5. They can choose, instead, to inflict one automatic s5 hit with no armor saves allowed. Throgg has 4 attacks at s6, and can inflict d6 s5 no armor hits each phase. He also has a breath weapon for 2d6 s5 no armor once per game, but that doesn't really come into this since you can use both that either of his regular attack options. In all cases, each model can still stomp. All vomit attacks are considered magical.

So, what should be slapped with troll claws, and what should I puke rainbows all over?

Some calls are pretty easy, obviously: fighting mournfang, vomit on them. Fighting state troops, slap them. But there's a lot of middle ground. How about chaos warriors (shield version or halberd version). What about hammerers or ironbreakers? What about savage orcs or daemons with a 5+ ward?

I am looking either for anecdotal evidence of what works and what doesn't, and also if somebody wants to do some epic mathhammer, I would be fine with that too: I am a law student, and I was a history major; I do not understand such things as plus and minus.

Thanks in advance for your help?

Btw I am running 9 trolls plus throgg, and I normally run them 4 wide.

Well, they are both naturally -2 to armor save.

Two things are WS and AS.

How many hits on the unit are they likely to get with only WS3? At T3-6 it is 1.5. From there they will wound based on T3: 83%
T4: 67%
T5: 50%
T6: 33%

Then it's based on armor save or ward or regen.

On one hand, you don't average many hits, not including stomp. And a dead troll has 0 breath weapon attacks. And using might get a quick break from the enemy. And you get the sense it won't be that different than what they normally did. Even if Trolls went up to a Giant, they're going to do their Stomp in all likelihood and nothing else.

So it depends on what you see on the table. Can you survive the upcoming fight and do you need it for some ethereals or mega armored knights or that steam tank over there? Or is it all about the same so go for the gusto and try and pound their faces.

this starts at a 4+ armour save because anything less won't change anything. same with less than T3 or above T7. it also assumes that you're hitting on a 4+.

so here's how many wounds you'll cause per Troll with 3 attacks:

___N/A__4+ __ 3+ __ 2+ __ 1+
T3: 1.25 _1.04 _0.83 _0.63 _0.42
T4: 1.00 _0.83 _0.67 _0.50 _0.33
T5: 0.75 _0.63 _0.50 _0.38 _0.25
T6: 0.50 _0.42 _0.33 _0.25 _0.17
T7: 0.25 _0.21 _0.16 _0.13 _0.08

Vomit
T3: 0.83
T4: 0.67
T5: 0.50
T6: 0.33
T7: 0.17

or simply put. if they have a 1+ armour save like Empire Knights, your vomit will have twice the chance to kill no matter the enemy toughness.
2+ he vomit is slightly better
3+ it makes no difference, but I like rolling more dice.
but if an enemy has a 4+ save or less then you should deffinitely smack them.


then again with the update here:
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1780264a_FAQ_WarriorsofChaos_V1_4.pdf
trolls in the second rank can vomit as well.

wait, I forgot Stomps... here, 3 attacks + Stomp:
___N/A__4+ __ 3+ __ 2+ __ 1+
T3: 2.08 _1.73 _1.39 _1.05 _0.70
T4: 1.67 _1.39 _1.11 _0.83 _0.55
T5: 1.25 _1.05 _0.83 _0.63 _0.42
T6: 0.83 _0.70 _0.55 _0.42 _0.28
T7: 0.42 _0.35 _0.27 _0.21 _0.14

so if it's small enough to stomp (man-sized infantry, swarms and war beasts) and they don't have a 1+ save then you've gotta just use your normal attacks.

Duke, vomit skips armor.

Lotet, those are very helpful numbers. I believe that stomps shouldn't be factored into this because you get to do them either way as I read the rules. However, the numeric comparison is very helpful. Thanks!

The easy rule of thumb is if they have 1+ or 2+ armor, or are WS7, vomit. Otherwise, attacking typically has better results.

-Matt

also enemies with a ward save, don't vomit on them since you'll only get 1 hit with vomit but 1.5 from normal attacks, neither of which will affect thier saving roll.

Lotet wrote:also enemies with a ward save, don't vomit on them since you'll only get 1 hit with vomit but 1.5 from normal attacks, neither of which will affect thier saving roll.

Weapon skill cuts your number of hits.
Armor save reduces effectiveness of attacks.
Ward saves affects both normal attacks and vomit equally, so it doesn't matter.

WS7+ means on average you get 1 hit with attacks, or 1 hit with vomit. Generally, I hope for average, so if attacking and vomitting net the same 'average' hits, I'll vomit. That way you bypass any chance of rolling well below average at the cost of hoping to get lucky. If you're hoping to get lucky, by a lottery ticket, and never vomit.
3+ armor with 3 attacks at -2, is the exact same odds as 1 auto hit at S5 no armor. 2+ or 1+ armor makes it more favorable to take the less hits and auto hit with a bypass on the armor save.

After all that is said in done, your opponent will take any ward saves he has, and the above decisions will net you as many pre-ward wounds as possible.

-Matt

Lotet wrote:

wait, I forgot Stomps... here, 3 attacks + Stomp:
___N/A__4+ __ 3+ __ 2+ __ 1+
T3: 2.08 _1.73 _1.39 _1.05 _0.70
T4: 1.67 _1.39 _1.11 _0.83 _0.55
T5: 1.25 _1.05 _0.83 _0.63 _0.42
T6: 0.83 _0.70 _0.55 _0.42 _0.28
T7: 0.42 _0.35 _0.27 _0.21 _0.14

so if it's small enough to stomp (man-sized infantry, swarms and war beasts) and they don't have a 1+ save then you've gotta just use your normal attacks.

Your first calculation was correct. Stomp is a special ability, so you can puke then stomp.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Lotet wrote:also enemies with a ward save, don't vomit on them since you'll only get 1 hit with vomit but 1.5 from normal attacks, neither of which will affect thier saving roll.

Weapon skill cuts your number of hits.
Armor save reduces effectiveness of attacks.
Ward saves affects both normal attacks and vomit equally, so it doesn't matter.

WS7+ means on average you get 1 hit with attacks, or 1 hit with vomit. Generally, I hope for average, so if attacking and vomitting net the same 'average' hits, I'll vomit. That way you bypass any chance of rolling well below average at the cost of hoping to get lucky. If you're hoping to get lucky, by a lottery ticket, and never vomit.
3+ armor with 3 attacks at -2, is the exact same odds as 1 auto hit at S5 no armor. 2+ or 1+ armor makes it more favorable to take the less hits and auto hit with a bypass on the armor save.

After all that is said in done, your opponent will take any ward saves he has, and the above decisions will net you as many pre-ward wounds as possible.

-Matt

no it won't, it'll net you the average, like you said earlier.

I was talking about Daemons troops, Empire with Blessing, Parry Save enemies and stuff, you'll ignore thier armour either way so you should get more attacks in. how many massed blocks of infantry have WS 7? Settra's Guards? how many monsters? 3 maybe? chances are you'll only get 1 troll in base contact with an enemy Lord or Hero and 1 vomit attack can't kill him unless he's already on 1 wound.

why did you...

HawaiiMatt wrote:3+ armor with 3 attacks at -2, is the exact same odds as 1 auto hit at S5 no armor. 2+ or 1+ armor makes it more favorable to take the less hits and auto hit with a bypass on the armor save.

repeat what I said...

HawaiiMatt wrote: If you're hoping to get lucky, by a lottery ticket, and never vomit.

and call me some sort of gambler because I like to roll lots of dice...

HawaiiMatt wrote:Generally, I hope for average, so if attacking and vomitting net the same 'average' hits, I'll vomit.

when dealing with something that is more often than not a preference?

you wound me mate. but that's okay, I have another.

Well, you're not going to use Vomit attacks on rank and file troops, not most of the time anyway. In any other case...
Vomit attacks are auto-hits and since Trolls are only WS 3, anything with a higher skill decreases your chances.
And of course, Vomit attacks bypass Armor saves, so they are good against a lot of heavy types.

Don't worry about rolls to wound, ward saves, or stomp attacks. Those things remains unchanged whether you attack or vomit.

Just look at the things that change - the number of attacks, the roll to hit & the roll to penetrate armour. Basically you're reducing your attacks from 3 to 1 in order to guarantee you'll hit and beat armour, so that means wherever the roll to hit and penetrate armour combined is less than 1/3 probability, you should vomit.

The way that works is basically what HawaiiMatt said. If the target has WS 7, where you need 5+ to hit, therefore 1/3 of attacks land, then if they don't get an armour save against your Str 5 attacks then both attacks have the same odds, but if they get an armour save then vomitting is always better. For lower WS, you're hitting on 4+, so averaging 1.5 hits per troll, so you'd need for armour to stop more than 1/3 of your attacks for vomiting to be superior, if it stopped less than that then normal attacks are superior. Once you account for the troll's -2 armour mod, then you've got troops with a 2+ save or better stopping more than 1/3 of attacks, at which point you should always vomit, troops with 4+ save or worse stopping less than 1/3, so you should always make standard attacks, and troops with a 3+ save giving the same probability of kills with either vomiting or normal attacks.

Theoretically there'd be another category, for WS 2 troops, but then you'd only switch from standard attacks to vomiting if the target had, after the troll's mod, an armour of 3+ or better, and there's no troop out there with WS 2 and a 1+ save. Unless you do something clever with magic, I guess.