Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

First of all, apologies for creating three new threads in the proposed rules section within a week. I'm working on a campaign with a friend and want to try and iron out the basic details by the 20th April.

Alright, onto the proposal:

In one campaign mission I was considering having civilians. The general rules I was thinking for them are as follows:

Civillian
Unit composition: 1-5

WS: 1
BS: 1
S 3
T 3
I 3
A 1
W 1
LD 5
SV: -

(S and T upgraded from 2 to 3 upon rational argument. Credit to CthuluIsSpy)

Wargear:
Personal Defence Sidearm
Close Combat Weapon

Personal Defence Sidearm: Pistol, S2 AP-, Range 12" (Originally AP 6, reduced to AP-) Credit to Bobthehero.
Special Rules:
Fleeing: Civilians will always move 6" and run D3 towards the nearest board edge after both players have taken their turns. However, if any model in a unit of civilians passes within 12" of any of model from another unit (Including another group of civilians) they will attempt to fire upon them.
Collateral Damage: When firing upon an enemy unit, if any models in the civilian unit are touched when you draw a line from your unit to the target. Any to-hit rolls of 1 are instead taken upon the civilian unit.



The reason I have chosen the 1-5 model size as opposed to the more obvious choice of a mob of civilians is that I wanted to simulate individual families trying to flee the battlefield were neither side cares about collateral damage. A horde of 10-20 civilians would fit much better in an evacuation scenario, I think, where one faction had an objective of protecting them. For this campaign the civilians are neutral.

I would greatly appreciate your help in refining and improving this idea. The end result that I am looking to simulate is D3+1 groups of civilians running around the battlefield. The campaign is going to be extremely driven by narrative, so I think the addition of civilians in the battle reports would help stir emotion and draw the reader in more.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.

AP 6? The lasgun doesn't even even AP to start with and I'd give them the conscripts stats, considering they're pretty much civilian sent to war. Liove the special rules however.

Thanks for replying, Bobthehero.

I envisioned the personal defence sidearm as a pistol which fired a solid shot as opposed to a laser. That is why I thought AP 6 would be more appropriate.

Not that it will make any difference, neither side in this campaign has any units with 6+ saves. Mainly for fluff reasons.

I'll remove the AP 6 now. Thanks for the criticism.

Bobthehero wrote:AP 6? The lasgun doesn't even even AP to start with and I'd give them the conscripts stats, considering they're pretty much civilian sent to war. Liove the special rules however.

Conscripts have had training. Civillians in this situation would be all panicked and dont have any training, so WS1 BS1 seems fine with me.

Otherwise like these rules

I don't know why everyone keeps giving civs T2 S2 I2.
They are humans; all humans have T3 S3 I3.
And you forgot the Ld value.
Make then either Ld5 or 6. A bit less than a guardsmen.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I don't know why everyone keeps giving civs T2 S2 I2.
They are humans; all humans have T3 S3 I3.
And you forgot the Ld value.
Make then either Ld5 or 6. A bit less than a guardsmen.

Apologies, I'll add in the leadership value now. 5 will do, 2 less than an average guardsman.

Hmm...

My logic for putting them at S and T 2 is that although they are both humans the atmosphere and culture they are exposed to are vastly different.

Civilians are not conditioned or trained regularly. A white collar worker will rarely, be as tough as a soldier. At least that is my view.

What is the rationale behind your argument? I am genuinely curious and am open to correcting my mistake if I am wrong.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, I will boost them from I2 to I3 btw, I can understand there not being much difference in general human reflexes without some very specialised training.

T2 S2 makes them en par with gretchin, who are much weaker and smaller than humans.

There's also the fact that a single point of S or T makes a massive difference.
Let me put it this way:

Space Marines are S4 and they can crush a man's skull with one hand out of armor.

Imperial Guard are S3 and they can't crush a man's skull with one hand out of armor.

That one point of strength made all the difference between being able to crush skulls and not being able to crush skulls.

There's also the simple fact of consistency.
IG, SoB, Inquisitors and imperial psykers are all S3 T3, even though they all had various degrees of training (SoB would be stronger than IG, for example, due to their power armor and supposedly harsher training), and in the case of sanctioned psykers, no training nor physical exercise. Yet they are all still T3 S3 because they are all unmodified humans.

Ahh, I see where you are coming from now.

Hmm...

I'm finding it difficult to believe that if a 10 guardsmen and 10 civilians entered unarmed combat that the guardsmen wouldn't have a physical advantage.

-They have higher WS.
-Higher leadership.

However neither of these reflect the additional strength gained from training.

I can lift fairly light weights. My friend in the military can lift much heavier weights. Ergo, by my logic, he is stronger. Is it not possible for white collar workers to be as weak as Gretchin?

I'm a bit more swayed by your point on toughness though. Without chemical steroids human beings will generally always be able to stand the same level of "hurt."

Marsden wrote:Ahh, I see where you are coming from now.

Hmm...

I'm finding it difficult to believe that if a 10 guardsmen and 10 civilians entered unarmed combat that the guardsmen wouldn't have a physical advantage.

-They have higher WS.
-Higher leadership.

However neither of these reflect the additional strength gained from training.

I can lift fairly light weights. My friend in the military can lift much heavier weights. Ergo, by my logic, he is stronger. Is it not possible for white collar workers to be as weak as Gretchin?

I'm a bit more swayed by your point on toughness though. Without chemical steroids human beings will generally always be able to stand the same level of "hurt."

Yes, the guardsmen would have a slight physical advantage, but as I said with the points on the strength differences between SM and IG, a single point of strength is a huge gap.
It makes complete sense for two units to have the same strength values, yet fluff wise for one of the units to be stronger than the other.
Looks at orks and IG. They both have S3, yet orks are a bit stronger than IG.

Aha! Point taken now, that makes a lot of sense.

The S1-10 scale doesn't permit the level of accuracy I was trying to convey here.

Thanks very much for explaining this. I'll change it now.

It makes more sense in the table top game, where each stat is actually a percentile. So imagine that your civilian is a flat 30, but your well trained guardsman gets a +5% to his strength to indicate his training. On the 40k tabletop, this is still only a S3/T3, but for 40kRP its much different.

Also might I suggest an "Angry mob?" They will have 2 hand weapons (broken bottles, hockey sticks, pipes, etc) stubborn, hatred, and between 1-3 "rabble rousers" that brings their LD to an awe inspiring 7. Once these are killed (Their position in the group and the loose nature of an untrained mob of rabble allowing them to be picked out with firing by anything with the Sniper rule or and BS5 or better model) the mob has to make a break test. When in contact with an objective, the mob may destroy the objective in its fury. Mobile objectives (loot counters, data files, etc) can be looted and taken with the mob. Stationary objectives (computers, generators, etc) can be destroyed. Roll a d6 every turn that the mob stays in base contact with the objective. On a 1-3 the objective is destroyed. Weapons caches might be lootable, allowing the rabble to become armed with proper weaponry. (Fear the las guns!) The angry mob, upset about (taxes/being evacuated/facist extremism in the government/outcome of the World Cup) will make evacuating cooperative civilians/VIPs or securing pbjectives very difficult.

Mind if I use these stats for an Evacuation scenario?

Nagashek wrote:It makes more sense in the table top game, where each stat is actually a percentile. So imagine that your civilian is a flat 30, but your well trained guardsman gets a +5% to his strength to indicate his training. On the 40k tabletop, this is still only a S3/T3, but for 40kRP its much different.

I really? I should have a gander at the RPGs then. They sound interesting.

Glad to help you, Marsden

Deadshot wrote:Mind if I use these stats for an Evacuation scenario?

Only if I get a short battle report of it! =D

Haha, I'm joking, go ahead! I'm glad it's of use to someone other than me too!

You may want to alter the rules so that instead of running towards the nearest table edge you are able to control their 6"+D3 movement each turn instead. =)

I would bump the WS and BS to 2. Conscripts with no training have that, so I don't see why Joe the Factory worker wouldn't shoot as well as Joe the recently conscripted grunt.

I can see bs 1, they would be frantic and fearfull and not able to shoot well, but I think they should be weapon skill two as they are fighting for their life.

Marsden wrote:

Deadshot wrote:Mind if I use these stats for an Evacuation scenario?

Only if I get a short battle report of it! =D

Haha, I'm joking, go ahead! I'm glad it's of use to someone other than me too!

You may want to alter the rules so that instead of running towards the nearest table edge you are able to control their 6"+D3 movement each turn instead. =)

Thanks! I will post the scenario here or in the Proposed Forum seperately as you prefer when I have it done. Shouldn't take too long

Happygrunt wrote:I would bump the WS and BS to 2. Conscripts with no training have that, so I don't see why Joe the Factory worker wouldn't shoot as well as Joe the recently conscripted grunt.

feth sake, conscripts have training just no experience. There just green in actual combat experience.

Ws2 ok, they have been in a fight or to, but joe the factory worker doesnt learn how to fire a lasgun in a factory.

Conscripts do have training. But as is the case with most conscripted forces, their training consisted of "Here's the trigger, this is how you reload, here's how to aim, this thing does that. Did you get all that?"

"SIR NO SIR!"

"Too bad, bring in the next wave. C'mon the only have 5 seconds to learn this stuff!"

Edit: Derp

mayfist wrote:

Happygrunt wrote:I would bump the WS and BS to 2. Conscripts with no training have that, so I don't see why Joe the Factory worker wouldn't shoot as well as Joe the recently conscripted grunt.

feth sake, conscripts have training just no experience. There just green in actual combat experience.

Ws2 ok, they have been in a fight or to, but joe the factory worker doesnt learn how to fire a lasgun in a factory.

Conscripts, courtesy of Call of Duty (The first one).

No formal training. Plus, Orks have BS2, and they don't have any training either. BS2 civilians makes sense. It is not game breaking.

Orks have innate warfare instincts in the same way Meks can just build something, and Painboys just sew your brain togetjer and you're good to go.

The reason orks have BS2 is because they really don't care to aim carefully and place their shots. They just point the gun in the direction of the enemy and pull the trigger. It really just gives them something to do before they start stomping faces the old fashioned way.

WS2 and BS1 seem appropriate.

I would give them a random selection of wargear.

Each group is 6 civilians, no more or less. All civilians have a close combat weapon.

You roll on a chart for each group.

2D6 result

2-4: Practically nothing: This group is especially unfortunate, having only improvised clubs and sticks to defend themselves with. No additional equipment.

5-6: Grab a stick!: D6 models in the group are armed with an additional CCW

7: I got a rock!: The entire group has gathered rocks and other suitable objects for throwing. These are treated as a ranged weapon with the following profile. Range 6", Str2, Ap-, assault 2

8-10: I found something!: The group has found some battered, but still functional weaponry. D3 models in the group may be armed with auto or laspistols, for game purposes they all shoot at the following profile. Range 12", Str3, Ap-, Pistol

11-12: Grab their gear!: This group has stumbled upon some freshly dead corpses and looted the bodies. D3+1 models may be armed with either a Laspistol or a Lasgun and all civilians gain Flak Vests(6+ armor save)

Conscripts=civilians in uniform. Just use their stats? Minus the armour save.

Grey Templar wrote:The reason orks have BS2 is because they really don't care to aim carefully and place their shots. They just point the gun in the direction of the enemy and pull the trigger. It really just gives them something to do before they start stomping faces the old fashioned way.

WS2 and BS1 seem appropriate.

I would give them a random selection of wargear.

Each group is 6 civilians, no more or less. All civilians have a close combat weapon.

You roll on a chart for each group.

2D6 result

2-4: Practically nothing: This group is especially unfortunate, having only improvised clubs and sticks to defend themselves with. No additional equipment.

5-6: Grab a stick!: D6 models in the group are armed with an additional CCW

7: I got a rock!: The entire group has gathered rocks and other suitable objects for throwing. These are treated as a ranged weapon with the following profile. Range 6", Str2, Ap-, assault 2

8-10: I found something!: The group has found some battered, but still functional weaponry. D3 models in the group may be armed with auto or laspistols, for game purposes they all shoot at the following profile. Range 12", Str3, Ap-, Pistol

11-12: Grab their gear!: This group has stumbled upon some freshly dead corpses and looted the bodies. D3+1 models may be armed with either a Laspistol or a Lasgun and all civilians gain Flak Vests(6+ armor save)

This is actually what I wanted to avoid more than anything else when writing these rules. As the civilians are owned by neither player I want them to be fairly streamlined and simply during their turn. I'm afraid that too much complexity would ruin their chances of being a good unit.

There are a hundred other things I would love to add in theory, mob rules, looting weaponry etc, but it simply cannot be done, I think.

I do love the ideas you have written though, they sound great! Perhaps they would work if the civilians were a faction unto themselves, but as they are neutral I think they need to be kept extremely simple for the meantime.

Got the mission done.

That sounds great, Deadshot!

Loved the joke btw, I won't post it and ruin it for the others. Haha.

I think it would certainly be a very interesting game mode to try out some day.

Like to point out that the IG codex says conscripts are either too young, or have not had time to complete basic training. Using this plus the arguement that the 10 point scale doesnt allow you to show small defferences, I would be more than content to give the civies ws 2 bs 2. However I would maybe concider reducing their leadership to 4.

Well, I guess that your average hive dweller would know at least how to fist fight (I mean, its a Hive City. Those places are nasty) so that would justify BS2

Not sure if many of them ever held a gun before.
Is there anyone we know of who has BS1 that could be used as an example?

CthuluIsSpy wrote:IG, SoB, Inquisitors and imperial psykers are all S3 T3, even though they all had various degrees of training (SoB would be stronger than IG, for example, due to their power armor and supposedly harsher training), and in the case of sanctioned psykers, no training nor physical exercise. Yet they are all still T3 S3 because they are all unmodified humans.

I'd just like to correct that Psykers are only S2.

moving on...
some civilians wouldn't fight at all while others could be the local 'big man'. they could be on a wheel chair or they could be a veteran who was written of as a casualty. I think WS1 BS1 is fine because a lot civilians won't attack because they have no weapons but you can assume that all the hits and wounds made were from the more ferocious of the lot. generally, I would imagine that most of the 'good' ones have either already joined the Imperial Guard or, failing that, the Penal Legions.

also Penal Legions are WS3 BS3 for whatever reason, just a reminder.