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I know this may be a ways off but we have a good idea now what GW is trying to do with the new books. What do you think will happen to the High Elves. What will they gain? What will they lose? And what do you think they will get to keep?

I will say that the Book of Hoeth will stay.
Teclis loses his moon staff

I'll bet you $10 Hoeth won't stay except in name. It will be changed massively if it remains. Banner of the World Dragon and other silly stuff will likewise be gone.

Teclis might keep A staff, but it won't be D3 dice. I could see +2 to casting attempts. He also won't be IF on any double. Maybe give him a little more defense in exchange. But he'll get nerfed to hell and Elfy tears will flow.

I could see Lil-T returning to the book before the current one Lil-T

I would think if they keep the book and Teclis' IF then it must also cause a miscast.

But that would be a punishment. He'd be miscasting constantly.

No he would still absorb one a round. You would just have to be cautious after the first IR.

Another question: what would monterous cavalry be for them? Giant lions? Dragons whelps?

Monstrous cavalry should be Drakes (small dragon like creatures) ridden by Dragon Princes. They were in the old War of the Beard list.

Army wide ASF will probably be gone as it was a 7th edition game balancer. Sword Masters will fight at initiative (no ASL or ASF) with their great weapons like they used to.

Either Silver Helms return to core or Dragon Princes become rare (or both).

RBTs either get upgraded or their cost goes down. (currently they do less casualties than the new Empire mortar that everyone is complaining about).

Teclis gets changed again as he has been different in every army book. No more IF on doubles. Bonus to cast instead with loremaster. Bonus dice probably becomes a one use item (as it used to be). Retains some miscast protection.

New spells for High Magic (hopefully they get rid of the stupid one that re-rolls misses with missile weapon as getting a few more weak hits is pretty worthless. Most direct damage spells will do more damage than this spell).

Eltharion and his Griffon need their ward improved to 4++ to be viable in this edition.


Change Dragon Mages (or drop them).

They should bring back the Pegasus as a ridden monster so we can use the old model again (and they can sell a new model too) as an elf on an eagle looks way to Wood Elfy.

A couple of things I think will happen:

-They will not get rid of Teclis' doubles = IF with no miscast, that is one of if not the biggest reason for taking him.

-Characters as a whole will probably drop in points cost across the board or even rise in some cases, either way. Also as mentioned Eltharion and Stormwing get a 4+ ward save.

-Units such as Spearmen, Archers and Lothern Sea guard will get cheaper.

-Bolt Thrower will/should be lowered to 50pts. per model.

-Personally think both the Book of Hoeth and World Dragon Banner will remain in the next HE book (yes they are very good but you pay for it which balances it out) as they are popular HE items currently which kind of seems to be the trend in the army books (Empire kept the Runefang and Griffon Standard for example).

-ASF will still be there though it will probably be worded in some different fashion.

-Griffons will drop in points cost and getter better stats like the Empire ones did.

-High Magic is fine the way it is (Curse of Arrow Attraction is an awesome spell, especially in combination with several units of Archers and Bolt Throwers, they better not get rid of it!)

gmaleron wrote:-They will not get rid of Teclis' doubles = IF with no miscast, that is one of if not the biggest reason for taking him.

How much you want to bet? I'll bet everyone who offers it, $10 that it will not remain the same. No IF on any double.

Teclis is indeed a great spellcaster. But half the races have a super uber spellcaster. From the living embodiment of magic, the frog who sat at the feet of the gods who made the world (including Teclis' race), god-infused casters from various races (rat, woc, ogre, greenie). etc

I.e., magic is just one more thing in 8th. A very important thing. And a very important thing to be balanced. But no race simply dominates to a silly degree another phase, like movement or melee combat or ranged combat. It's too much.

DukeRustfield wrote:

gmaleron wrote:-They will not get rid of Teclis' doubles = IF with no miscast, that is one of if not the biggest reason for taking him.

How much you want to bet? I'll bet everyone who offers it, $10 that it will not remain the same. No IF on any double.

Teclis is indeed a great spellcaster. But half the races have a super uber spellcaster. From the living embodiment of magic, the frog who sat at the feet of the gods who made the world (including Teclis' race), god-infused casters from various races (rat, woc, ogre, greenie). etc

I.e., magic is just one more thing in 8th. A very important thing. And a very important thing to be balanced. But no race simply dominates to a silly degree another phase, like movement or melee combat or ranged combat. It's too much.

According to the fluff Teclis is supposed to be the most powerful of all spellcasters in the current world which means, much like HE armies currently are, is that they have very good magic just like every other army has weaknesses and strengths (and he does have his weaknesses, being only T2 for example). It was just my opinion that they would not get rid of the doubles = IF and no miscast since it is a big part in why Teclis gets taken in the first place I never ruled it out. However if they do get rid of it I expect a large point decrease for him and the Book of Hoeth definitely staying in the HE lineup of magic items, for 100pts. its fairly priced.

It isn't IF on any doubles, FIRST, you have to successfully reach the casting value, THEN, IF you have doubles of any kind, you get IF.

BronzeJon wrote:It isn't IF on any doubles, FIRST, you have to successfully reach the casting value, THEN, IF you have doubles of any kind, you get IF.

Aware of this I dont understand why some HE and other players think that if your roll doubles the spell automatically goes off, makes no sense.

gmaleron wrote:According to the fluff Teclis is supposed to be the most powerful of all spellcasters in the current world

And Khairos isn't of this world.

And the Slann, according to the fluff, are the most powerful race of wizards the world has ever known. Kroak "and his peers who taught the ancestors of the HE the magic they wield to this day, in the golden age of Ultuan before the elves wrote down their histories."

Blah blah.

It's about balance. My offer stands. He's not going to keep it because it is crazy unpowerful. Look at Hrand Hierophant Khatep, who is cheaper, but you can see him becoming more like him.

DukeRustfield wrote:

gmaleron wrote:According to the fluff Teclis is supposed to be the most powerful of all spellcasters in the current world

It's about balance. My offer stands. He's not going to keep it because it is crazy unpowerful. Look at Hrand Hierophant Khatep, who is cheaper, but you can see him becoming more like him.

Khairos is a Demon so technically no he isnt he manifests from the warp . And either way you slice it he still is one of if not the most powerful mage in the world so I personally dont think it will be gone, its just my honest opinion. And crazy unpowerful? Dont you mean crazy powerful since its what your saying needs to be gone for some reason?

These are all great thoughts and arguments. I seem to have attracted just the right people to this thread.

But I would like to get back to Teclis later as he is going to cause rage no matter which way this ends up.

I would like to focus on core first (if you guys wouldn't mind).

Overall I think of the HE as a dying race, so they should have very few models on the table. But they should also be able to beat everyone model for model.

That being said, what are your thoughts on this:
archers should better than human archers and I don't mean +1 BS. I think any bow used by an elf should get re-rolls to hit, armor piercing and strength 4 at close range (don't worry wood elf players, I think you should be made to be even better than this). Also the curse of arrow attraction should be changed to +1 to hit and cause D3 wounds.

I know it seems like much but when I think elves I think archers. They should be prevalent on the field and the only way to do that is to make them at least useful and I think... feared.

Do you think this is too much, too little? What would you change and what would be the point cost?

+1BS is insanely good. For units that start with 3BS, a 1BS increase is 1/3rd. BS is everything for shooters.

And no, arrow attraction shouldn't be D3 because it would be instant death to Ogres and such. Or basically anything with multi-wounds. It's plenty powerful for gunlines.

We will see Reavers and silver helms move into core.
ASF is going away.
High magic will get re-worked and drain magic will become a normal spell (maybe the signature) instead of a freebee.
Bolt throwers should get cheaper (I'm thinking 75 points-ish)
I could see dragon mages moving to rare.
Swordmasters will swing at their own init, while white lions will ASL.
Like all books, you'll be seeing only ~10 magic items.
Teclis will get re-worked. IMO, he'll be the only lore master and he's I.F. on any doubles is going away. He'll have some other type of bonus to still be a great caster in 8th edition. 8th Edition magic is more about the spells being more powerful, but the individual casters not being as Over the Top.

Begin Nerd Rage now.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:We will see Reavers and silver helms move into core.
ASF is going away.
High magic will get re-worked and drain magic will become a normal spell (maybe the signature) instead of a freebee.
Bolt throwers should get cheaper (I'm thinking 75 points-ish)
I could see dragon mages moving to rare.
Swordmasters will swing at their own init, while white lions will ASL.
Like all books, you'll be seeing only ~10 magic items.
Teclis will get re-worked. IMO, he'll be the only lore master and he's I.F. on any doubles is going away. He'll have some other type of bonus to still be a great caster in 8th edition. 8th Edition magic is more about the spells being more powerful, but the individual casters not being as Over the Top.

Begin Nerd Rage now.

-Matt

As a soon to be high elf player, I hope Matt is right on everything. As soon as I mentioned High Elf as my next army people groaned and immediately complained about Teclis. He is OTT and I hope he gets reduced. I have a feeling on the following.

- Banner of Sorcery stays as is.
- Banner of the World Dragon either goes away or raises to 125 points.
- Speed of Asuryan will probably be changed to striking at initiative even if they have ASL. Might even mean winning initiative ties by 1.
- Teclis will probably retain loremaster but have to pick his lore before the game starts instead of after deployment or whatever it is now. I think his auto IF will probably be a one-turn one-use item. He will probably gain T3. I doubt he will gain d3 dice any longer. I could even see him becoming a lvl 5 caster, in a similar but different fashion to Arkhan the Black.
- Core will probably be the same with maybe a 1 or 2 point reduction in model prices.
- Weakening of Speed of Asuryan will also probably cause a 1 or 2 point drop in Swordmasters and White Lions.

My thoughts, anyways.

There is no way Banner of the World Dragon is going to stay the same in rules. It will be like MR 3 or something.

I can't see there being any change to the three elite infantry units. Swordmasters, White Lions and Phoenix Guard are nicely balanced against each other, and between them all, and the ASF rule, you have the core concept of the High Elves perfectly captured - they are the glass hammer army. I would be very surprised if any major changes were made there, and absolutely gobsmacked if they lost ASF.

Really, there are two problems with the High Elves at present. The first, and possibly the single most talked about thing on the internet, is that Teclis is too powerful. Scaling back his power level, while still keeping him among the most powerful mages available, is inevitable. The easiest way to do this would be to drop the "IF on a double" thing, and instead let him generate extra power dice - so the High Elf player will still get loads of spells off, but at least his opponent will be able to pick some spells to try and block.

The second, and harder problem to solve, lies with the core troops. Right now High Elves are the army where any somewhat competitive list will take the minimum core troops, and absolutely no more. They simply are not worth the points. Fixing this is quite problematic, because a simple points cost would see these troops move back towards horde numbers, and that's a problem when you're supposed to be looking at an elite, dying race. Increasing the power of these guys is also pretty tricky, as you risk stepping on the toes of the elite HE troops, or on special rules given to other armies. I'm not sure what the answer is, but I know that the way to improve the High Elf book is to make their core troops unique, useful units worth taking in their own right, and not just to fill up the minimum core requirement.

Oh, and I agree Silver Helms will move back into core. The only reason they aren't there in the current book was the problem older editions of the game had problem with all cavalry armies, that simply doesn't exist in the more tactically sophisticated environment of 8th ed.

Archers, Spears and Lothern Sea guard all drop by 2-3 points each to make them viable alternatives to the veritable treasure trove of awesomeness that is the elite choices.

Silver helms as troops.

I could see their core coming down 1-2 points. I could see them all losing ASF in exchange for +1-2 I. Mostly cuz it's just a universal rule. It's a big exlamation mark and it takes away a lot of strategy. Like, got your M12 I10 super fast daemon creature? Too bad, an elf is faster. It just trumps too many things. It could be part of HE magic like KB in Nek with maybe Swordmasters(?) retaining ASF.

It's kind of like if an army auto-hit, even if they didn't do much dmg. You tend to not think about a lot of stuff. Undead/Daemons don't worry about panic, but they die from it. Which is a good exchange for such a powerful ability.

I think ALL mage lords should be able to be made like the best Slann or WoC or Daemon (not hard). With Teclis having some bonuses above that and consequent extreme cost and glaring weaknesses that all SCs have.

They also have no real war machines and not great war machine hunters. Ogres have gotten considerably better at machines. So have Dark Dwarfs.