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Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Lexington, KY

Trotting this out again to see if there's anything I've missed about it.

3rd printing Chaos Codex says a model with a Doom Siren strikes first regardless of charging into cover or weapon.  This would mean you get to swing a Power Fist before anyone, charging into cover or not.

The 4.2 FAQ previews that were available on GW's web site (UK only, I believe?) for a while totally changed the rules.

Those FAQs are no longer available.

So, what does a Doom Siren do?

I'm asserting that the authoritative sources are the 3rd printing Chaos codex and the 4.0.1 Chaos FAQ, as the 4.2 FAQ is no longer 'published', hence Doom Siren and Power Fist is a S8 attack before I10.  Any difference in opinion?

Stop trolling us so Lowinor and I can go back to beating each other's faces in. -pretre 
   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

Technically, the Doom Fist MIGHT be an I1 weapon that strikes before everything. This was my first impression as a brand-spanking-new Chaos player, unbiased by previously retracted "unofficial FAQs". But, as the rules currently stand, you will not find a conclusion to this debate which everyone can agree on.

Legality aside, I suggest you don't do it until the FAQs, or Codex, have been updated.

Setting the Fist argument aside, the current state of the Doom Siren itself allows you to strike before everyone else.

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




*Current meatspace coordinates redacted*

Interesting. I can't see anyone complaining about, say, a great weapon using Doom Siren to go first, or arguing that a Doom Siren  assaulting into cover doesn't go first. So i suppose that now the Power Fist is I1, and not strikes last, I can't think of any rule that would prevent this combo. Yuck! That's really brutal. Maybe I should go with Emperor's Children ...

Cheers, F


He knows that I know and you know that he actually doesn't know the rules at all. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





I think that the wording now that the Powerfist is Initiative 1 vs the "Always strikes last" wording of 3rd edition is key.

Doom Siren allows the user to strike first regardless of initiative. So the Siren would ignore the fact that the fist is I of 1 and strike first anyway.

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in us
[DCM]
-






-

That is the way it looks now, but, GW has promised to release updated FAQs any second, so...

(And no, I am not holding my breath)

   
Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Posted By Lowinor on 03/07/2006 8:31 AM
So, what does a Doom Siren do?

I'm asserting that the authoritative sources are the 3rd printing Chaos codex and the 4.0.1 Chaos FAQ, as the 4.2 FAQ is no longer 'published', hence Doom Siren and Power Fist is a S8 attack before I10.  Any difference in opinion?


Ahoj!
As per the RAW you quote, yes, the Powerfist on a model with Doom Siren works in an unusual manner
However, nobody I know off plays it that way, but plays as per Doom Siren rules from 1st and 2nd printing.
Borys
   
Made in us
[DCM]
-






-

Borys,

Is there a reason why everyone you know doesn't play the Doom Siren as listed in the most recent Chaos Marine Codex?

Is it a house rule?

Are there other things that you and your group are playing as they were in the 1st and 2nd printings?

Just curious!

   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA



Alpharius, I would guess that the reason some people aren't using the 3rd printing Doom Siren rules is that, for a while, GW had posted a list of Chaos Codex printing changes on their forums. In it, it said:

"Error in the Third Printing of Codex: Chaos Space Marines

P56 Doom Siren. The correct wording for the close combat effect of a Doom Siren is as follows: - In close combat a model with a Doom Siren will always strike in Initiative sequence even if attacking enemy in cover as the waves of sonic energy confuse and repel them. Enemy who strike first regardless of Initiative are unaffected."



So, many people choose to follow this guideline, even though the post is no longer on the website and it is unknown if this ruling will ever find its way into a FAQ or an even newer printing (4th?) of the Chaos codex.


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Made in pl
Regular Dakkanaut




Ahoj!
Alpharius - there two chief reasons for my gaming group to use 1st/2nd printing rules for Doom Siren:
1 - Poland was used as dumping ground for 2nd printing until the summer/fall of last year;
2 - thus the "dissapearing draft of 4.2 CSM FAQ" got to us sooner than the 3rd printing of the codex, and in my circle EOT gaming aids are usually regarded as binding;

Borys
   
Made in us
Automated Rubric Marine of Tzeentch






Posted By Borys on 03/08/2006 7:41 AM
Ahoj!
Alpharius - there two chief reasons for my gaming group to use 1st/2nd printing rules for Doom Siren:
1 - Poland was used as dumping ground for 2nd printing until the summer/fall of last year;
Borys



GamesWorkshop forgot about Poland!

Noone I play with has the third printing and the local game store still has a second printing so a road trip would be in order for me to even see a third printing. I can see how you would use what you have.


   
Made in us
[DCM]
-






-

Huh!

I remember seeing the "4.2" FAQ a while back (an Unofficial Gaming Aid, yes?) and was amused that the "corrected" text for the Doom Siren began with:

"Error in the Third Printing of Codex: Chaos Space Marines"

That's one hell of an error! (And certainly not a typo/cut and paste mistake either!)

It was such a radical change, it couldn't have just snuck in there, right?

So of course what it has done is completely screw up the whole Doom Siren issue...

But, the new FAQs are due any day now, right?

<crickets>



   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Even based on the 3rd edition codex wording, I am having a hard time understanding how people are making the interpreting that the "Doom Fist" goes first.

The rule for the Power Fist in the main rule book clearly states that it goes at I1 regardless of any bonuses for cover, granades, wargear, etc.

The Doom Siren is a piece of wargear that has a general rule stating that models (with any weapons) strike first.

The Power Fist is a weapon with a specific rule stating that it strikes at I1 regardless of any special wargear rules.

This is not to say that a piece wargear couldn't be developed with a rule that specifically over-rides the PF's I1 restriction, but the wargear rule would have to specifically state that it is over-riding the PF rule.

No?

"I didn't say I was ATTACKING the Umber Hulk. I said I was THINKING about it." -- Jimbo Jones as one of "The 12 Types of Fantasy Gamers" in "Comic Book Guy's Book of Pop Culture" 
   
Made in us
Been Around the Block




The key wording ing doom siren is that "Regardless of weapon or cover the model will strike first."  Not the models strikes first, but regardless of weapon. Is a powerfist a weapon, yes, disregard it's rules about when it strikes, it will strike first.   
   
Made in us
[DCM]
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-

Er, it kinda is.

I don't have the exact quote with me here, but the 3rd printing version clearly says goes first regardless of iniative (or is it cover?) or weapon .

Not sure about the cover/iniative thing, but I am sure that it specifically calls out "regardless of weapon" used.

So, that's were this is coming from for most...

   
Made in us
Widowmaker






Syracuse, NY

The doom siren states that a model with it strikes first regardless of weapon. That looks like a pretty clear over-ride of any weapon-specific rules. Moreso when the only weapon available to a doom siren wielding model capable of changing strike order is the powerfist.




   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Ah, so the weapon says regardless of wargear, and the wargear says regardless of weapon. That's MUCH more confusing...

"I didn't say I was ATTACKING the Umber Hulk. I said I was THINKING about it." -- Jimbo Jones as one of "The 12 Types of Fantasy Gamers" in "Comic Book Guy's Book of Pop Culture" 
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

"That's one hell of an error! (And certainly not a typo/cut and paste mistake either!)."

T4(5) Oblits were also an 'error'.

BYE

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"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut




Los Angeles

T4(5) Oblits were also an 'error'


I was under the impression that it was the other way around.

"The last known instance of common sense happened at a GT. A player tried to use the 'common sense' argument vs. Mauleed to justify his turbo-boosted bikes getting a saving throw vs. Psycannons. The player's resulting psychic death scream erased common sense from the minds of 40k players everywhere. " - Ozymandias 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Eye of Terror

This is the case where an immovable object is hit by an irresistable force. Basically anyone that wants to use a doomfist is trying to save some points since there several ways to have a Slaanesh character run with S8.

The people that are saying Doom Siren sez 'regardless of weapon' are leaving out that powerfist sez 'always goes last. So it is a matter of wot you give preference. Now if anyone tried to use doomfist on me I would say no way... I would quit first. I think anyone that wants to use doomfist can be classified as a jerk too.

Loved by many!!! Don't you know it too! Heh. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Lexington, KY

I think it's pretty obvious that the "Doom Fist" swings first if the rules in the 3rd printing Chaos codex are the authoritative rules on the Doom Siren.  The rules printed in the codex are more specific than those in the main rule book and hence override.

What I was looking for was any extant publication that would change the rules on the Doom Siren itself.

As for saving points on characters... it's more for aspiring champs than ICs.  You end up with +25 points on a champ to get a flamer shot and S8 swings first.  On ICs, you want the siren for charging into cover, as as said there are other ways to boost strength.  Being able to take the fist and then master craft it is a nice advantage, though.

Stop trolling us so Lowinor and I can go back to beating each other's faces in. -pretre 
   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

Posted By BloodyT on 03/08/2006 4:42 PM
The people that are saying Doom Siren sez 'regardless of weapon' are leaving out that powerfist sez 'always goes last.



Thats part of the problem though. The rules for P-Fists no longer DO say "always go last". They instead say "always strike at Initiative 1", making them go simo with other I 1 strikers.

So, its not the P-Fist that makes you strike last, its the reduced initiative, and Doom Sirens appear to currently ignore initiative altogether. This is why you **might** be able to enforce both rules without breaking either, resulting in an I1 S8 attack that strikes first.

 

There are definately less "iffy" ways to accomplish this on an IC, but the ability to use this with Asp. Champs is the whole point. Can you imagine the carnage? :S


"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





resulting in an I1 S8 attack that strikes first.


Well put.

The Powerfist makes you I1 and then the Siren ignores the 'I' all together.

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

Just remember the "might".

"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Eye of Terror

Initiative 1 is the same exact thing as going last... so don't try to muddy the waters.

 

"I think it's pretty obvious that the "Doom Fist" swings first if the rules in the 3rd printing Chaos codex are the authoritative rules on the Doom Siren.  The rules printed in the codex are more specific than those in the main rule book and hence override."

If that is your justification you are full of cr@p.


Loved by many!!! Don't you know it too! Heh. 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Eye of Terror

Champion w. deamonic strength (now at S5) plus combat drugs (now at S6) plus dark blade (now at S8)... there you go.

Loved by many!!! Don't you know it too! Heh. 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran




Lexington, KY

"If that is your justification you are full of cr@p."

This is a RAW question. The rules seem to support a Doom Fist swinging first. Do you have an actual argument otherwise? Ad hominems don't count for anything.

Stop trolling us so Lowinor and I can go back to beating each other's faces in. -pretre 
   
Made in us
Master of the Hunt





Angmar

Posted By BloodyT on 03/09/2006 10:36 AM

Initiative 1 is the same exact thing as going last... so don't try to muddy the waters.



No, its not. Insisting that it is is not in line with the RAW at all. I1 does not always strike last any more than I10 always strikes first. Saying that I1 always strikes last is an assumption. It just so happens to usually be correct, but it is an assumption nonetheless.

Yes, most of the time I1 will strike last, but not because it "always strikes last", but instead because of the fact that there would usually not be any other attacks happening after it due to the fact that I1 is the lowest possible initiative. Now, if another rule comes into play, and I'm sure one of these exists somewhere, which states that the user "strikes last", the P-Fist will actually strike before this.

The sequence is simple. From first to last you have:

"Strikes First", I10, I9, ..., I2, I1, "Strikes Last"


"It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the seed of Arabica that thoughts acquire speed, the teeth acquire stains, the stains become a warning.
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion."
 
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




Eye of Terror

Don't wave RAW around like it is nobody's business... it doesn't intimidate me. You have failed to present an actual case where something would hit after I1. I have not seen anything anywhere that has I0. We cannot go about interpreting rules based on every fairy tale you throw our way.

That this whole discussion is based on taking aspiring champions with doomfists is enough for me to know that this is coming from a rule lawyering powergaming *&^%.

 


Loved by many!!! Don't you know it too! Heh. 
   
Made in us
Widowmaker






Syracuse, NY

No one has to provide an instance where something strikes after I1. You are trying to say that striking last is the same thing as having a rule that says 'Always strikes last'. This is not the case - A carnifex has I1 for instance, if a powerfist 'Always struck last' then a carnifex would go before the pfist, as it stands they go simultaneous.

Anyone using slaanesh asp champs with doomfist striking first is someone who read their codex. Belittle them all you want, but they are playing the game by the rules.

   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Why so hostile BloodyT?

You are the one not presenting any facts. All you are doing is running around saying "boo hoo powergamers full of crap".

The facts are simple, I1 is ignored in the case of a Doom Siren. Sorry man, it's just the way it is.

Don't wave RAW around like it is nobody's business... it doesn't intimidate me. You have failed to present an actual case where something would hit after I1.


Why are you worried about being intimidated? And why would anyone need to provide a case of something hitting after I1? That's not the point, the point here is about Doom Siren ignoring the I1 rule of the powerfist and striking first. Those facts have been presented since they relate to the case at hand. Your "what strikes after I1" does not relate to the question.

The rules are the rules. Getting all butt hurt about them isn't going to prove your case any more than it has ever helped Capt Anderton.

Can you D.I.G. it? 
   
 
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