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MY high elf army is at this point as follows:

a block of 29 spearmen with a noble in it next to the command unit (command unit =leader + standard bearer + musician )

a block of 20 seaguard with command

a block of 16 archers with command

a block of 10 swordmasters with command

a block of 8 silver helms with shields and command ( usually i run them with a noble on barded steed )

a block of 5 reavers with harbinger

one reaper bolt thrower

one lvl 2 mage with a dispell scroll and sacred incense

and lastly a block of 10 white lions with command

id like to know what i should add into them to get them working optimal cause now they are a little bit of a let down in games
i think that i need some more magic in there ...

Well I'll start by saying that I've lost all 8 (I think) of my battles so far, so I'm not the best person to take advice from, but since no one else has replied here goes:

I put your list into an app & it comes out at roughly 1800 points, of which you have 44% core, that is WAY too much. Our best units are in the special category, so you need to drop core to bulk up your SMs and WLs.

You have too much command, I personally run with almost none (but then I lose so....). For example, you don't want your archers in combat so standard bearer is useless. Champions usually come with +1 attack, but they cost the amount of an extra model for that unit, which would have +1 attack & +1 wound. If you took out all your command groups you would save 182 points!!! That's enough for 12 SM/WL/PGs! Musicians can be really useful though so I'm not saying take it all out, just most of it.

Sacred incense is useless when you take swordmasters. If I was your opponent my shooting would go for them, not your Mage & his unit. You're better off either giving him silver wand, or seerstaff of saphery than the dispell scroll, or better yet, take an archmage instead.

Archmage would give you a much better magic phase, give him book of hoeth if you want a terrifying one (I don't personally like it that much but again, I lose...).

I don't like reavers, but then I'm pretty defensive so they usually get left all alone to die. I do like the cavalry bus, but if youre not taking a mounted noble I'd consider dropping the helms as I don't think they're that good on their own. I would rather have 12 swordmasters than 8 helms, but then I love SMs.

Hope I helped, or at least gave you something to think about

Decide what it is you'd like to be able to do with your army, and make adjustments from that point. Are you losing every combat by a little? A lot? Getting wiped out entirely? This helps you decide if you need subtle changes or major ones.

The following is not a set way you have to make a list, but it's a good point to start from when you're not feeling the HE love in your games.

First off, the main rule with HE is minimum core, as has been stated. If you're playing 2000 points, that means you have exactly 500 points of core and not a point more if you can avoid it. How you make up your core depends on your playstyle a bit, but a quick rundown is as follows:

---Spearmen: best option as they are the cheapest unit. You can field two decent sized blocks or a single large block for your points.

---Archers: second best option for filling in the gap if you only want a single spear block. They work well in multiple sizes of 10 with a musician, or larger blocks if you're worried about giving your opponent easy victory points. Don't expect them to kill much.

---Seaguard: a blend of the above two, and more expensive than either without any extra benefit. They won't be any stronger than spearmen when charged, they don't have the range of the longbows, and you won't have as many wounds in your blocks. They do provide tactical flexibility, but I'd save off using them until you have a direct strategy behind it.

Once you're done with deciding your core option, it's time to move on to what DOES work very well for HE's: special choices, and magic. I'll cover magic first.

The long and short of it is that HE's have, arguably, the strongest magic in the game, period. Slann, Tzeentch, and DE trickery all have very strong points, but no other race has the kind of abilities HE's have access to in order to completely control the magic phase. Decide if you want to go magic offensive or defensive first, and from there spell lore choice and gear becomes easier. If you choose a defensive route, I'd suggest playing with the un-killable life archmage, load-out as follows:

Archamge, lvl 4
Talisman of Saphery
Folariaths Robe

This will leave you with 20 more points to equip your archmage with choices from anything except talisman and enchanted items. Why do you run this? Everytime your mage successfully casts a life spell, he will regain a wound. The only way he can be wounded is if it's from a magic attack, and when he get's into base contact, any magic weapon become's mundane. This effectively make's him literally impossible to hit while in combat, unless the attack is naturally magical (ethereal and such I believe).

If you'd like to be more offensive, try the High Magic on your archmage, still lvl 4, but give him the Book of Hoeth. Your opponent may give you dirty looks. Feel free to cackle. Just remember you must successfully generate enough power to cast the spell for the irresistible effect to count (or still 2 6's). Basically, rolling 6 dice, needing 12, and rolling 6 1's doesn't count as irresistible.

Other builds do work, as do regular mages in pairs or alone with a strong spell set and silver wands, annulian crystals, and seerstaffs. Play around and decide what you like. Try and stick with high magic, life, light, and fire to start. Remember that HE's always work better when you choose to buff your units instead of debuffing the enemy.

If you want to keep it simple and evil, just pick Teclis and keep him safe. If you don't understand what this means, read up on Teclis and see if you don't smile a bit and end up mouthing "well this guy is just downright silly broken" by the end of it.

Ok, phew, on to specials. To keep a long story short, White Lions, Sword Masters, and Phoenix Guard. If you must have cavalry, Dragon Princes. The rest of the units are very situational and highly overpriced for what you get. Chariots can be fun, but only take them if you have a definitive purpose. Two lion chariots will wreck face pretty hard if they get the charge, but are a lot of points. You'll have 1000 points to play with, spend them wisely.

MSU white lions works very well, as it keeps them cheap so you have a lot, and steadfast means you'll not worry about modifiers. Not to mention that their ASF STR 6 attack will wound most anything on 2's, with -3 to armor. That puts a hurt on 90% of the game.

MSU sword masters also work well, but they'll need some cover to avoid getting shot up. Try and keep them ready for a flank charge when possible. They will absolutely wreck face if their full force is brought into combat. try two ranks of 7 for maximum effect.

For phoenix Guard, MSU is possible but not required. They make excellent mage bunkers (especially for the un-killable life mage), and are one of the best tar-pit units in the game. They cause fear, they hit at str 4, they have a 5+ armor and a 4+ ward. OPh, and they have a natural LD of 9. 15 points a pop is well worth these things. Try a solid block of 20 to start. That will bog down a lot.

The last thing to consider is the Dragon Prince. For what they are, they do a great job. 2+ armor save, 2+ ward against anything fire, Ld 9, 2 attacks each, lances on the charge. So what's the problem? They're terribly expensive. a Unit of five will set you back 150 points before you even add a command. Use them for flank destruction or in a bigger unit to charge headlong with, but be very cautious of them being destroyed needlessly, you can't afford it.

For rare choices, it has to be great eagles. They eat war machines, absorb shots to waste your opponents shooting, block incoming chargers, redirect, and look cool to boot. At 50 points a pop, how can you not take one? By taking two, and to be honest at 2000 points it would be better with 3 or 4.

Bolt throwers just never seems to make up their points. You'll be killing a few (2-4) guys each round on average, but i've just never had it be worth the trouble. If you do take one, avoid the single bolt and stick to shooting down whoever you're about to charge first with volley fire. Seems to supply better long term damage.

If you decide to take a BSB, I'd start with avoiding the magic weapons and banners for the first few runs and keeping him simple and survivable. Try helm of fortune, guardian phoenix, heavy armor, shield, great weapon. He'll have a re-rollable 3+ armor save and a 5+ ward. Keep him in the middle of everyone out of trouble to make sure your guys stay fighting when things get hairy.

Ok, so beyond all of what was just said, remember to play smart. HE's are very squishy, and very expensive. They epitomize what an elite army is, and as such you must pick and choose your engagements wisely. If you don't think you stand an excellent chance of winning a charge fight, don't start it. Know what you can and cannot reliable kill and how to best go about it. Pick targets that are a real threat to your army, and focus on them first. With ASF, the only things you need to immediately fear are anything that also has ASF AND a higher initiative (which isn't much) and anything with impact hits, as those will go first before you get your ASF (and most likely, they will kill some guys too). You can't do much about the ASF and higher Init problem besides having more wounds to waste, but for impact hits just make sure you get the charge and not him. Measure, measure, measure.

For magic, be wary of anything which lowers your initiative or requires a strength or toughness test; having 3 on both means you'll fail half your tests on average.

Good luck in future battles, hope this was of some use.

Seaguard are pointless because you always want to keep your spears and your bows separate.

Phoenix Guard are your best special unit on virtue of having a 4+ invuln save. Yes they are only Str 4 but you should realize that shields + CCW no longer grant +1 armor save so strength has been devalued as a stat. In the same vein Swordmasters are bad unless you tool them up since they are the most fragile of the lot. White lions are way better in MSU on virtue of being stubborn and their 3+ save vs shooting.

If you absolutely must have elves on horses go with Dragon Princes. Yes they are more expensive, but they die to less random nonsense. Also if you use them as they are intended to be used in 8th ed (ie flankers/march interdictors) you only ever need 5 in a unit

PS if you have an archmage and you are not packing the book of Hoeth you are doing it wrong.

Personally, I would take 20 swordsmasters and 20 white lions for special.

As for characters I like the idea of the immune to magic weapon/can only be hurt by magic weapon archmage. But there are other combos that work as well, if not better.

I have said this and will say it again. Eagles. For redirecting and whatnot.

yenlowang wrote: PS if you have an archmage and you are not packing the book of Hoeth you are doing it wrong.

Spoken like a true WAACer. There are a good number of perfectly viable builds for an archmage that don't include wasting all your points on a single magic item.

Aerethan wrote:

yenlowang wrote: PS if you have an archmage and you are not packing the book of Hoeth you are doing it wrong.

Spoken like a true WAACer. There are a good number of perfectly viable builds for an archmage that don't include wasting all your points on a single magic item.

Whoa. Whoa. WHOOOOOOOOOAAAAAAAAAAAAAA there broseph. I think you are confusing 'viable' with 'optimal'.

There are a great many POSSIBLE builds for a lvl 4 Archmage. However NONE will be as good as the Book of Hoeth especially if that Archmage is also going to be your General. This is due to the way magic and miscasts work.
The easy rule of the thumb is you roll 1 power dice for every 3 power you need (Power - Mage Level).

So if you are trying to cast a 8+ spell with a lvl 4 archmage, you will need to roll 2 power dice to have a reasonably reliable chance to cast it. The odds of a miscast on 2 dice is approx. 16% or just under 1 in 5 spells. And thats on 2 dice. The chances of you rolling a miscast grows pretty rapidly the more dice you throw into the mix. And lets be honest. If you were going to just cast pissant 8+ spells you might as well just bring a couple of disposable lvl 1s. With the book that miscast rate drops to 2.77% or just under 1 in 30 spells for 2 dice. And the effect is even more pronounced once you throw more dice in.

Ask any VC or TK player what the greatest cause of caster death is. Its not combat, or shooting its miscasts. So yeah spending 100 points to keep your 250+ investment AND general from kersplodin + letting you cast your big spells like a boss is a 'waste'.

If you are packing a lvl 4 Archmage and dont take the Book of Hoeth you are either a masochist or providing your opponent with charity wins. Either way you are doing it wrong.

And who says that balls to the walls offense is the "right" way to play? What if you intend to play defensively, especially if you know your opponent plays heavy offense?

Then Folariaths Robe, Talisman of Saphery and Silver Wand is a better build as your mage is immune to everything except spells and magic arrows(not sure if there is any non magic phase magic shooting in the game).

That build right there is easily a more versatile option than the Book.

Just because one build is the best offensive choice doesn't make it the only choice.

What happens when an empire player uses a witch hunter to snipe the gak out of your precious book mage? Or any other sniping abilities in the game for that matter. If I know an opponent is running the Book then it is 100% priority unless they happen to also have a dragon running amok.

The Book of Hoeth is not the end all, be all, of magic items. Granted, it's one of the best ever, but remember what you sacrifice in order to take it. You will have no save of any kind, unless you park the mage in a unit with some magic resist or put him on a mount. He will have to be given a ward save via magic, and that will eat power dice every turn.

On the plus side, The Book allows you a better chance of dominating the magic phase. I don't like my spells getting dispelled by some stupid scroll. It's nice to throw three dice at a lvl 12 spell, roll a 5 and a couple of 3's, and tell my opponent he can't dispel it and I suffer no miscast. BUT, don't forget that you STILL suffer regular penalties (i.e, a miscast) if you roll two or more 6's (though you still get your irresistible force). Also, you won't get to use the books effect when rolling doubles if you missed the casting value. So it goes in a two check order. 1, did I meet or beat the casting value? If yes, did I roll two or more doubles that are not 6's? If yes, bam! you can't dispel it and I suffer no miscast. Hooray!

So I'm not quite sure how the book reduces your chances you miscast. All I've known it to do is to improve your chances of getting your spell off in such a way that it cannot be dispelled.

Also, many tournaments and leagues ban the book as being OP.

Aipoch wrote:The Book of Hoeth is not the end all, be all, of magic items. Granted, it's one of the best ever, but remember what you sacrifice in order to take it. You will have no save of any kind, unless you park the mage in a unit with some magic resist or put him on a mount. He will have to be given a ward save via magic, and that will eat power dice every turn.

On the plus side, The Book allows you a better chance of dominating the magic phase. I don't like my spells getting dispelled by some stupid scroll. It's nice to throw three dice at a lvl 12 spell, roll a 5 and a couple of 3's, and tell my opponent he can't dispel it and I suffer no miscast. BUT, don't forget that you STILL suffer regular penalties (i.e, a miscast) if you roll two or more 6's (though you still get your irresistible force). Also, you won't get to use the books effect when rolling doubles if you missed the casting value. So it goes in a two check order. 1, did I meet or beat the casting value? If yes, did I roll two or more doubles that are not 6's? If yes, bam! you can't dispel it and I suffer no miscast. Hooray!

So I'm not quite sure how the book reduces your chances you miscast. All I've known it to do is to improve your chances of getting your spell off in such a way that it cannot be dispelled.

If only high elves had a unit that was stubborn.
Like white lions.
Just take white lions with standard and musician, deployed 2 wide and 8 or so deep. That puts the wizard safely in the 2nd rank.

-Matt

You might be needing more magic, I'm new to Fantasy, so I'm not sure if I'm the best person to take advice from but I do know one thing about High Elves. High Elves easily boast some of the best magic in the game, take advantage of that!

yenlowang wrote:Seaguard are pointless because you always want to keep your spears and your bows separate.

Phoenix Guard are your best special unit on virtue of having a 4+ invuln save. Yes they are only Str 4 but you should realize that shields + CCW no longer grant +1 armor save so strength has been devalued as a stat. In the same vein Swordmasters are bad unless you tool them up since they are the most fragile of the lot. White lions are way better in MSU on virtue of being stubborn and their 3+ save vs shooting.

If you absolutely must have elves on horses go with Dragon Princes. Yes they are more expensive, but they die to less random nonsense. Also if you use them as they are intended to be used in 8th ed (ie flankers/march interdictors) you only ever need 5 in a unit

PS if you have an archmage and you are not packing the book of Hoeth you are doing it wrong.

just thought i'd say i disagree with all of these points (not sure if they are answered later, i read this far and chimed in )

pheonix guard do as close to no damage as can be possibly achieved, and with t3 and a 4++ save (most things will ignore heavy armour so i never expect to use it) they will still die to any hard hitting unit.

white lions are ok but you need to load up on them. with only 1 attack they dont put out "that much" damage (get them into chaos warrios and/or knights and they put some beat down but....) and can end up loosing most combats because of it.

swordmasters kick out amazing amounts of damage to lightly armoured.... stuff (thinking 4+ save or worse) but cant take loosing combats so you need to pick the fights for them carefully.




for the cost of 5 dragon princes you can have 10 of any of the elite infantry, i'd go with the infantry in this edition.

reavers are amazing at dropping war machines and hunting mages. pack them 2 wide and run at mages with them for 4 attacks at str 4 re-rolling misses.... hell its an expensive shot but it is not too bad a set of odds, especially against hero level ones. granted, against war machines the great eagle out performs a bit though (just by being a little bit more survivable)


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yenlowang wrote:If you are packing a lvl 4 Archmage and dont take the Book of Hoeth you are either a masochist or providing your opponent with charity wins. Either way you are doing it wrong.

i pack a level 4, using high magic, with a dispel scroll and foloriath's robe.

i do this for several reasons:

1) the book of hoeth is not too much shy of a small (and still viable) unit in points
2) mages are already expensive
3) the robe has allowed me to have my mage charge out of his unit into a steam tank, thus stopping its rampage through my army and holding it up for the game (whilst i still cast all but 1 of my spells)
4) the book, much like taking teclis, i find a waste of points. once you take it to a tournament or your local meta start noticing it you will find that there are so many ways to rid yourself of a t3 model with no save
5) i want to enjoy my games
6) [most importantly] i want my opponent to enjoy their game as well (i will either vaporise them with magic and they'll have a boring game or they'll drop my 370odd point mage straight away and they'll have a magic dominated game, again boring)