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According to Lexicanum, the Fall of the Eldar happened just one millennium before the Great Crusade. Was it possible that the pre-heresy SM Legions could have encountered the DE or had they not yet grown to full force with raiding and everything?

Eighteen Wheeler wrote:According to Lexicanum the Eldar's fall happened just one millennium before the great crusade. Was it possible that the pre-heresy SM legions could have encountered the DE or had they not yet grown to full force with raiding and all that stuff

They could have possibly ran into small DE raiding parties but during the crusade the legions probably didn't know the difference between Craft world Eldar and Dark Eldar. So probably most cases of pre-heresy Legion seeing Dark Eldar were written in their records as seeing eldar.

Even in the 41st millennium the Imperium doesn't widely understand the difference between Eldar and Dark Eldar. Part of the distrust of the Eldar arises from ignorance; it's hard enough to understand the motivations of a single craftworld that may attack you one day and defend you the next, let alone a galaxy of independent craftworlds. Then add in warbands of nearly identical looking but totally sadistic and evil Eldar, and you can see why the Imperium at large hates a race that we commonly consider "good guys". Only someone particularly well-versed in xenos, like an Inquisitor, or a Rogue Trader, or an experienced Guard commander, would probably know the difference.

Did the Eldar and DE use the same wargear back then?

As if your usual xenophobic human can tell the difference between a splinter rifle and a shuriken catapult.

Even if they didn't use the same wargear, the ignorance and paranoia of most Imperium forces would keep them from realizing the difference. As has already been stated, only someone relatively well-versed in alien species like an inquisitor would know the difference.

Imperials are so scared of aliens and they always claim they fear nothing. Fear nothing my a**

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Even in the 41st millennium the Imperium doesn't widely understand the difference between Eldar and Dark Eldar. Part of the distrust of the Eldar arises from ignorance; it's hard enough to understand the motivations of a single craftworld that may attack you one day and defend you the next, let alone a galaxy of independent craftworlds. Then add in warbands of nearly identical looking but totally sadistic and evil Eldar, and you can see why the Imperium at large hates a race that we commonly consider "good guys". Only someone particularly well-versed in xenos, like an Inquisitor, or a Rogue Trader, or an experienced Guard commander, would probably know the difference.

This isn't strictly true.

The Imperium at large is able to differentiate between Craftworld Eldar, Exodites, Kabalites, Wych Cults, and Corsair warbands.
Recognizing specific Craftworlds, Corsair groups, etc is not something they'll really be able to do though.

Imperial forces did indeed encounter dark eldar pirates. The Spacewolves story in Tales of Heresy is an example of such an encounter.

Just to clarify things, I'm asking if the DE were a full-fledged faction before the HH

There's no real "yes" or "no" answer to that. We have a short story mentioning piratical Eldar raiders in "Tales of Heresy", but it could simply be a band of corsairs.

You could always ask one of the Black Library authors on their Twitter feeds/Facebook accounts. They're quite responsive and helpful when it comes to stuff like this.

Think I found your story

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Tales_of_Heresy_(Anthology)#Wolf_at_the_Door

One of the Primarchs backstories (before he was discovered by the Emperor) involves fighting off Dark Eldar raiders.

Though it should be noted at this point, all Eldar besides a very small minority of outcasts would have come off like Dark Eldar. DE are basically what the Eldar were the day of the Fall.

Harriticus wrote:Though it should be noted at this point, all Eldar besides a very small minority of outcasts would have come off like Dark Eldar. DE are basically what the Eldar were the day of the Fall.

Really? Shrinking heads and everything?

Eighteen Wheeler wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Though it should be noted at this point, all Eldar besides a very small minority of outcasts would have come off like Dark Eldar. DE are basically what the Eldar were the day of the Fall.

Really? Shrinking heads and everything?

Maybe even worse. Mandrakes are implied to be half-daemon and all, born between unholy congresses between mortal and daemon at the eve if the Fall.

Well, Vulkan beat them up with hammers before the Emp. even found him. But he is space-Samuel L. Jackson, so that isn't too surprising.

One has to imagine they were around and already on the prowl. Their webway cities would probably be more independant of eachother than they are in the 41st millenium, but they would have very quickly had to find ways to sate She-Who-Thirsts. The scattered and poorly defended worlds full of humans would likely be very easy targets, so cases like Vulkan were probably more of a rude and unexpected surprise.

However, conact with the Legions was probably minimal. The DE were hiding in the webway, so it isn't as if the crusade would run across any DE "worlds". And the Dark Eldar would have no real incentive to attack a target so large, well armed, and difficult as a Legion crusade fleet.

An interesting hypothetical on a similar note- had Big E. completed his web-way project, how would he have gone about confronting the Dark Eldar?

Webway Project?

DrimGark wrote:Well, Vulkan beat them up with hammers before the Emp. even found him. But he is space-Samuel L. Jackson, so that isn't too surprising.

One has to imagine they were around and already on the prowl. Their webway cities would probably be more independant of eachother than they are in the 41st millenium, but they would have very quickly had to find ways to sate She-Who-Thirsts. The scattered and poorly defended worlds full of humans would likely be very easy targets, so cases like Vulkan were probably more of a rude and unexpected surprise.

However, conact with the Legions was probably minimal. The DE were hiding in the webway, so it isn't as if the crusade would run across any DE "worlds". And the Dark Eldar would have no real incentive to attack a target so large, well armed, and difficult as a Legion crusade fleet.

An interesting hypothetical on a similar note- had Big E. completed his web-way project, how would he have gone about confronting the Dark Eldar?

Oh, yes. I would imagine the whole 'bringing battle to the Eldar' was more against the Dark Eldar than the Craftworld Eldar. He and the Council of Terra were willing to negotiate with the Craftworlds with regard to Maiden Worlds, so I would imagine the Webway might have been shared between the Humans and the Craftworld Eldar, while the Dark Eldar would have been ruthlessly exterminated with regards to the
ir Chaos taint.

Eighteen Wheeler wrote:Webway Project?

The Emperor sought to gain access to the Webway by using the Golden Throne as a central control from which to explore, repair, and expand the Webway. This would have set the stage for the next stage of His plan to safely accelerate Human evolution, and was supposed to be the Emperor's greatest gift to Mankind.

Tadashi wrote:The Emperor sought to gain access to the Webway by using the Golden Throne as a central control from which to explore, repair, and expand the Webway. This would have set the stage for the next stage of His plan to safely accelerate Human evolution, and was supposed to be the Emperor's greatest gift to Mankind.

What stopped it

Magnus the Red, in an attempt to warn the Emperor about Horus's treachery, used sorcery to reach out to him, after it was barred at Nikea. He barged in to the section of the Webway the Emperor had built, causing extreme amounts of damage to it, and opening it up to infestation by warp entities.

The fallout from this act could go on for pages, but, for our purposes here, it essentially put an end to the Emperor's attempt, and he didn't get a chance to try again.

Eighteen Wheeler wrote:

Tadashi wrote:The Emperor sought to gain access to the Webway by using the Golden Throne as a central control from which to explore, repair, and expand the Webway. This would have set the stage for the next stage of His plan to safely accelerate Human evolution, and was supposed to be the Emperor's greatest gift to Mankind.

What stopped it

I'm going to assume your really really new.

Read up on a little historical thing called The Horus Heresy.

clively wrote:

I'm going to assume your really really new.

Read up on a little historical thing called The Horus Heresy.

New to DD maybe but sure as hell not to 40k. I've read plenty about HH. This was just probably something I forgot. It's not like it was a major detail anyway.

Eighteen Wheeler wrote:

clively wrote:

I'm going to assume your really really new.

Read up on a little historical thing called The Horus Heresy.

New to DD maybe but sure as hell not to 40k. I've read plenty about HH. This was just probably something I forgot. It's not like it was a major detail anyway.

Actually it is. This is the original purpose of the Golden Throne, and the primary reason the Emperor returned to Terra on the first place.

Kanluwen wrote:

CalgarsPimpHand wrote:Even in the 41st millennium the Imperium doesn't widely understand the difference between Eldar and Dark Eldar. Part of the distrust of the Eldar arises from ignorance; it's hard enough to understand the motivations of a single craftworld that may attack you one day and defend you the next, let alone a galaxy of independent craftworlds. Then add in warbands of nearly identical looking but totally sadistic and evil Eldar, and you can see why the Imperium at large hates a race that we commonly consider "good guys". Only someone particularly well-versed in xenos, like an Inquisitor, or a Rogue Trader, or an experienced Guard commander, would probably know the difference.

This isn't strictly true.

The Imperium at large is able to differentiate between Craftworld Eldar, Exodites, Kabalites, Wych Cults, and Corsair warbands.
Recognizing specific Craftworlds, Corsair groups, etc is not something they'll really be able to do though.

The Imperium at large? Or the Ordos Xenos?

I'd doubt your average Guardsman would know the difference between one Eldar pirate and another, unless they had extensive experience.

Tadashi wrote:Actually it is. This is the original purpose of the Golden Throne, and the primary reason the Emperor returned to Terra on the first place.

Well you can't blame me for forgetting that, after all it's current purpose does drown out the original one. Until now I thought it was made as a life support machine. I'm not an IoM fan anyway.

Eighteen Wheeler wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Actually it is. This is the original purpose of the Golden Throne, and the primary reason the Emperor returned to Terra on the first place.

Well you can't blame me for forgetting that, after all it's current purpose does drown out the original one. Until now I thought it was made as a life support machine. I'm not an IoM fan anyway.

Sorry if I caused offence.

Tadashi wrote:Sorry if I caused offence.

not at all.

an Imperial apologizing. there's something you don't see everyday.

Eighteen Wheeler wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Sorry if I caused offence.

not at all.

an Imperial apologizing. there's something you don't see everyday.

True.

But Blood Ravens are Seekers of Truth...we have to acknowledge our own selves, for knowledge is power, and knowledge of the self is a most powerful truth - kinda ironic since who the Blood Ravens really are is so wrapped in mystery...

Tadashi wrote:But Blood Ravens are Seekers of Truth...we have to acknowledge our own selves, for knowledge is power, and knowledge of the self is a most powerful truth - kinda ironic since who the Blood Ravens really are is so wrapped in mystery...

not anymore. sorry to burst your bubble but the Blood Ravens are actually a loyalist splinter of TS.

Eighteen Wheeler wrote:

Tadashi wrote:But Blood Ravens are Seekers of Truth...we have to acknowledge our own selves, for knowledge is power, and knowledge of the self is a most powerful truth - kinda ironic since who the Blood Ravens really are is so wrapped in mystery...

not anymore. sorry to burst your bubble but the Blood Ravens are actually a loyalist splinter of TS.

Yes, the Fourth Fellowship survivors theory is one I support, but the problem with that is it hasn't been proven yet, and some people on dakka (it would be impolite to give names) capitalize on that fact and try to debunk the Blood Ravens as simply another Chapter.

DOW2 says that Thule was never the same after he saw the chapter's secrets in North Vandea. on top of that they were destroyed. this only bolsters the assertion that they're TS.

I like the scenario presented by 40k Wiki
http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Blood_Ravens#Possible_Connections_to_the_Thousand_Sons_Traitor_Legion