Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

There are already threads about the Blood Ravens/Thousand Sons thing.

I've said my piece on them a few dozen times. I won't again.

"Ah yes. Kanluwen. We've dismissed this claim."
- the Citadel Council

the fall of the dark eldar conicided with the birth of the eye of terror, the depravity of the eldar causing slanesh to be born, creating the eye of terror, wich also contributed to some exodites retreating in the webway to escape slanesh - becoming dark eldar.

i do believe the eye of terror was around before the crusades and the heresay?

but that would be the best point of refrence. what was the imperium doing when the eye iof terror opened?
and i may be wrong but did not the defeated traitor legions get cast/retreat into the eye of terror after the battle?

DarthSpader wrote:the fall of the dark eldar conicided with the birth of the eye of terror, the depravity of the eldar causing slanesh to be born, creating the eye of terror, wich also contributed to some exodites retreating in the webway to escape slanesh - becoming dark eldar.

i do believe the eye of terror was around before the crusades and the heresay?

but that would be the best point of refrence. what was the imperium doing when the eye iof terror opened?
and i may be wrong but did not the defeated traitor legions get cast/retreat into the eye of terror after the battle?

Nothing. The Eye opened before the Imperium was founded, and only when it opened did the Warp Storms that marked the Age of Strife calmed down, at which point the Emperor began the Unification Wars on Terra.

well so thats the answer to that then... the imperium most definitly encounterd dark eldar... or at least the 3rd ed codex version of them around or during the heresay and crusades. no weather or not they actually knew the diffrence or not is anyones guess. dark eldar do have a different look and style to them over craftworld eldar, so something must have clicked. also arent the craftworlds decked out in extremly bright colors like blue yellow and red? aside from the ulthwe..

DarthSpader wrote:well so thats the answer to that then... the imperium most definitly encounterd dark eldar... or at least the 3rd ed codex version of them around or during the heresay and crusades. no weather or not they actually knew the diffrence or not is anyones guess. dark eldar do have a different look and style to them over craftworld eldar, so something must have clicked. also arent the craftworlds decked out in extremly bright colors like blue yellow and red? aside from the ulthwe..

Yes they are so different in fact that i would think some humans would think them two different races, not one fractured race. How ever the dark eldar aren't the only ones attacking humanity for slaves, corsairs have been known for doing it two, most of the time just to sell them to the dark eldar. And that is one of the major reasons the Imperium despises the eldar, and a pretty good one in my opinion. How ever I'm more curios as to how they reacted to the exodites who would have been rarely encountered as they according to the fluff populate worlds on the edges of the galaxy, at least these are the ones that survived the fall.

Yori wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:well so thats the answer to that then... the imperium most definitly encounterd dark eldar... or at least the 3rd ed codex version of them around or during the heresay and crusades. no weather or not they actually knew the diffrence or not is anyones guess. dark eldar do have a different look and style to them over craftworld eldar, so something must have clicked. also arent the craftworlds decked out in extremly bright colors like blue yellow and red? aside from the ulthwe..

Yes they are so different in fact that i would think some humans would think them two different races, not one fractured race. How ever the dark eldar aren't the only ones attacking humanity for slaves, corsairs have been known for doing it two, most of the time just to sell them to the dark eldar. And that is one of the major reasons the Imperium despises the eldar, and a pretty good one in my opinion. How ever I'm more curios as to how they reacted to the exodites who would have been rarely encountered as they according to the fluff populate worlds on the edges of the galaxy, at least these are the ones that survived the fall.

Fulgrim offered the Exodites Imperial protection and recognition of their worlds as 'inviolate' - if an xenos race tried to occupy/colonize, then that race would face retribution from both the Imperium and the Craftworlds. Also the Imperium would forbid any Human attempt to colonize those worlds - all this was offered with tacit approval from both the Emperor and the Council of Terra; unfortunately, by this point Fulgrim was already under Slaaneshi influence and the Eldar attacked him without provocation. Instead of trying to warn Fulgrim or try to convince him of the danger, they simply attacked - which has since been recorded all the way to the 41st Millennium as an insult to the hand of friendship and peace that Mankind had offered the Eldar.

Tadashi wrote:

Yori wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:well so thats the answer to that then... the imperium most definitly encounterd dark eldar... or at least the 3rd ed codex version of them around or during the heresay and crusades. no weather or not they actually knew the diffrence or not is anyones guess. dark eldar do have a different look and style to them over craftworld eldar, so something must have clicked. also arent the craftworlds decked out in extremly bright colors like blue yellow and red? aside from the ulthwe..

Yes they are so different in fact that i would think some humans would think them two different races, not one fractured race. How ever the dark eldar aren't the only ones attacking humanity for slaves, corsairs have been known for doing it two, most of the time just to sell them to the dark eldar. And that is one of the major reasons the Imperium despises the eldar, and a pretty good one in my opinion. How ever I'm more curios as to how they reacted to the exodites who would have been rarely encountered as they according to the fluff populate worlds on the edges of the galaxy, at least these are the ones that survived the fall.

Fulgrim offered the Exodites Imperial protection and recognition of their worlds as 'inviolate' - if an xenos race tried to occupy/colonize, then that race would face retribution from both the Imperium and the Craftworlds. Also the Imperium would forbid any Human attempt to colonize those worlds - all this was offered with tacit approval from both the Emperor and the Council of Terra; unfortunately, by this point Fulgrim was already under Slaaneshi influence and the Eldar attacked him without provocation. Instead of trying to warn Fulgrim or try to convince him of the danger, they simply attacked - which has since been recorded all the way to the 41st Millennium as an insult to the hand of friendship and peace that Mankind had offered the Eldar.

I hated Eldrad and the Wraithlord in that book, they were the embodiment of eldar arrogance and ignorance, Eldrad actually told Fulgrim that if humanity tried to colonize the planet they would come and slaughter the colonists, I really liked the part where Fulgrim beat the crap out of the Warithlord and then the Avatar. What I can't remember is did he destroy those worlds I think he did but i cant really recall it. And is the Imperium prepared to do that again to perhaps weaken the eldar even more, or fallow the saying "If I can't have it, no one will!"?

Yori wrote:

Tadashi wrote:

Yori wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:well so thats the answer to that then... the imperium most definitly encounterd dark eldar... or at least the 3rd ed codex version of them around or during the heresay and crusades. no weather or not they actually knew the diffrence or not is anyones guess. dark eldar do have a different look and style to them over craftworld eldar, so something must have clicked. also arent the craftworlds decked out in extremly bright colors like blue yellow and red? aside from the ulthwe..

Yes they are so different in fact that i would think some humans would think them two different races, not one fractured race. How ever the dark eldar aren't the only ones attacking humanity for slaves, corsairs have been known for doing it two, most of the time just to sell them to the dark eldar. And that is one of the major reasons the Imperium despises the eldar, and a pretty good one in my opinion. How ever I'm more curios as to how they reacted to the exodites who would have been rarely encountered as they according to the fluff populate worlds on the edges of the galaxy, at least these are the ones that survived the fall.

Fulgrim offered the Exodites Imperial protection and recognition of their worlds as 'inviolate' - if an xenos race tried to occupy/colonize, then that race would face retribution from both the Imperium and the Craftworlds. Also the Imperium would forbid any Human attempt to colonize those worlds - all this was offered with tacit approval from both the Emperor and the Council of Terra; unfortunately, by this point Fulgrim was already under Slaaneshi influence and the Eldar attacked him without provocation. Instead of trying to warn Fulgrim or try to convince him of the danger, they simply attacked - which has since been recorded all the way to the 41st Millennium as an insult to the hand of friendship and peace that Mankind had offered the Eldar.

I hated Eldrad and the Wraithlord in that book, they were the embodiment of eldar arrogance and ignorance, Eldrad actually told Fulgrim that if humanity tried to colonize the planet they would come and slaughter the colonists, I really liked the part where Fulgrim beat the crap out of the
Warithlord and then the Avatar. What I can't remember is did he destroy those worlds I think he did but i cant really recall it. And is the Imperium prepared to do that again to perhaps weaken the eldar even more, or fallow the saying "If I can't have it, no one will!"?

The Eldar have always looked down on others - especially the Ulthwe and the Alaitocii. The Biel-Tan are more pragmatic; as warriors they respect the Imperium enough not to trifle or belittle it's iron fist, or to needlessly provoke it. And yes, Fulgrim did destroy those worlds, virus bombing them into oblivion. Ironic isn't it? The Eldar's actions may actually have increased the corruption by angering Fulgrim and weakening his mental defenses; perhaps if they'd tried to warn him a lot of deaths could have been avoided. As for the current Imperium, as much as possible they try to ignore the Maiden Worlds, as they apparently don't counterattack if a colony on one is destroyed. Only when pirates or corsairs use them as a base do they take action. I've read in a Codex or some other official (non-BL) work that a notorious and ruthless Corsair used several Maiden Worlds as bases for his raids on the Imperium. Eventually, enough was enough, and the Imperium incinerated the entire region until they found his ship and blew it into the Warp; apparently, the Craftworlds didn't dare risk a confrontation with the very angry Imperial retaliation force, and the surviving Exodites remember bitterly NOT the Imperium, but that Corsair for deliberately provoking the Imperium.

Harriticus wrote:Though it should be noted at this point, all Eldar besides a very small minority of outcasts would have come off like Dark Eldar. DE are basically what the Eldar were the day of the Fall.

Did the Craftworlders not look the same in the 31st mil. as they do now?

Eighteen Wheeler wrote:

Harriticus wrote:Though it should be noted at this point, all Eldar besides a very small minority of outcasts would have come off like Dark Eldar. DE are basically what the Eldar were the day of the Fall.

Did the Craftworlders not look the same in the 31st mil. as they do now?

Craftworlders were generally on the fringes of the Eldar Empire to begin with. Commorragh was the epicentre of the Eldar's empire within the webway, so they were much current with the 'trends' that were occurring at the time of the fall.

So they must've been the outcasts that Harriticus speaks of

Eighteen Wheeler wrote:So they must've been the outcasts that Harriticus speaks of

Not exactly. There were two types of Outcasts at the time: Craftworlders and Exodites. The Craftworlders retained their technology, just limiting their society and rejecting excess, while the Exodites threw away all advanced technology - essentially the Eldar equivalent of Feral Worlders. Currently, Exodites and Rangers are considered Outcasts, with both Eldar and Dark Eldar considering themselves 'true' Eldar.

The first part of 'Thousand Sons' as Magnus fighting what sound like DE Titans (well.. corrupted Eldar Titans, anyway).

Tadashi wrote:Not exactly. There were two types of Outcasts at the time: Craftworlders and Exodites. The Craftworlders retained their technology, just limiting their society and rejecting excess, while the Exodites threw away all advanced technology - essentially the Eldar equivalent of Feral Worlders. Currently, Exodites and Rangers are considered Outcasts, with both Eldar and Dark Eldar considering themselves 'true' Eldar.

So the majority of Eldar gave into said excess?

Eighteen Wheeler wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Not exactly. There were two types of Outcasts at the time: Craftworlders and Exodites. The Craftworlders retained their technology, just limiting their society and rejecting excess, while the Exodites threw away all advanced technology - essentially the Eldar equivalent of Feral Worlders. Currently, Exodites and Rangers are considered Outcasts, with both Eldar and Dark Eldar considering themselves 'true' Eldar.

So the majority of Eldar gave into said excess?

Oh yes. If we think a Daemon World in the Eye is bad, then we haven't heard of the Eldar Empire at it's fall. A certain measure of order exists in the Daemon Worlds, even if it boils down to following the strongest Champion of Chaos and serving the Dark Gods by going out in raids or failing that fighting each other. But still, a certain degree of order remains in the Dark Empires in the Eye. The Eldar Empire during the Fall was simply put, pure Chaos. Eldar were viciously raping, murdering, even eating each other, among other things. Even CSMs and Heretics would think twice before engaging in orgies with daemons, but Dark Eldar Mandrakes are implied to be the product of such horrific congresses. So much darkness was pouring out of the Empire that warp storms were popping like there was no tomorrow out of the Warp, and not even the Emperor (of course, He wasn't the Emperor then) and the elder Powers of Chaos could control the Warp at the time. Human civilization, still reeling from the recent war with the Men of Iron, was torn apart, descending into the Old Night.

in that case I'm glad the Eldar got what they got. I wonder which is worse, having a child with a daemon or like the CSMs, becoming a daemon yourself.

Eighteen Wheeler wrote:in that case I'm glad the Eldar got what they got. I wonder which is worse, having a child with a daemon or like the CSMs, becoming a daemon yourself.

Now we all know why the Imperium and the Inquisition keeps Mankind so oppressed. Think about how far Mankind would fall if our 'modern' free society was faced with the temptations of Chaos; it'd be the Fall of the Eldar all over again, only this time it'd be ten times worse, since Mankind's unstable psyche can cause greater resonances in the Warp.

i thought Eldar psyche was much more extreme than the humies'

Tadashi wrote:Now we all know why the Imperium and the Inquisition keeps Mankind so oppressed. Think about how far Mankind would fall if our 'modern' free society was faced with the temptations of Chaos; it'd be the Fall of the Eldar all over again, only this time it'd be ten times worse, since Mankind's unstable psyche can cause greater resonances in the Warp.

Psychic ability is what causes resonance in the warp, that's why human psychers have to be sanctioned. They struggle with their grasp over their psychic abilities and are at risk of demonic possession.
But psychic proficiency is innate in all Eldar. (Though currently very atrophied in DE) That prolific psychic unity coupled with the fact that Eldar experience all emotion far more deeply and profoundly than humans are capable is what caused the fall.

Humans could have galaxy wide, millennia long drunken orgies and still never do what the Eldar did. They don't have enough massed psychic ability and they don't high enough emotional capacity

Theirs a short story about the Space Wolves Legion encountering a human world that for centuries has paid the Dark Eldar tribute in human children. With the help of the Space Wolves they hold off the Xenos only to has the Astartes turn on them after the battle.

I would think yes they would have met de but not really known who they really were

Archonate wrote:

Tadashi wrote:Now we all know why the Imperium and the Inquisition keeps Mankind so oppressed. Think about how far Mankind would fall if our 'modern' free society was faced with the temptations of Chaos; it'd be the Fall of the Eldar all over again, only this time it'd be ten times worse, since Mankind's unstable psyche can cause greater resonances in the Warp.

Psychic ability is what causes resonance in the warp, that's why human psychers have to be sanctioned. They struggle with their grasp over their psychic abilities and are at risk of demonic possession.
But psychic proficiency is innate in all Eldar. (Though currently very atrophied in DE) That prolific psychic unity coupled with the fact that Eldar experience all emotion far more deeply and profoundly than humans are capable is what caused the fall.

Humans could have galaxy wide, millennia long drunken orgies and still never do what the Eldar did. They don't have enough massed psychic ability and they don't high enough emotional capacity

The Inquisition would like a word with you...

That's a good theory, if it weren't for the fact that there are four malevolent entities on the Warp that feed on dark emotions and actions. Just the sheer weight of all the quadrillions of Humans going DE would swell their power enormously and repeat the nightmare of the Fall, this time across three-fourths of the galaxy.