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Situattion: Genestealer with Broodlord charge Grey Knight HQ (not sure which) in the open. Broodlord is in B2B with HQ and tries to Hypnotic Gaze, However the Grey knight player insist that the Cleansing Flames goes first despite the fact that their activation times have the exact wording. In such case would the Unit with the higher Initiative go first?

Can anyone verify this?

They both go off at the same time, Initiative has not started yet.

I'm not sure why it matters. Do these rules even interact?

DeathReaper wrote:They both go off at the same time, Initiative has not started yet.

I think what he is asking is: Does Hypnotic Gaze stop Cleansing Flame? Cleansing Flame is a CC attack, and Hypnotic Gaze stops the model from making CC attacks.

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They both go off at the same time, Initiative has not started yet.

I think what he is asking is: Does Hypnotic Gaze stop Cleansing Flame? Cleansing Flame is a CC attack, and Hypnotic Gaze stops the model from making CC attacks.

It's a CC attack that is initiated with a Psychic test. HG does not stop Psychic tests. Therefore HG does not stop CF.

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They both go off at the same time, Initiative has not started yet.

I think what he is asking is: Does Hypnotic Gaze stop Cleansing Flame? Cleansing Flame is a CC attack, and Hypnotic Gaze stops the model from making CC attacks.

It's a CC attack that is initiated with a Psychic test. HG does not stop Psychic tests. Therefore HG does not stop CF.

Who cares how it is initiatied? It is a close combat attack regardless. It doesn't matter where it came from. Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack coming from the model, is it not? You can make the psychic test all you want. It is the result of the psychic test that is negated.

That's like saying that armour doesn't protect from psychic tests, it protects from damage, so it cannot protect you from Eldritch Storm. We know that is not the case. The psychic test isn't what matters here.

puma713 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:They both go off at the same time, Initiative has not started yet.

I think what he is asking is: Does Hypnotic Gaze stop Cleansing Flame? Cleansing Flame is a CC attack, and Hypnotic Gaze stops the model from making CC attacks.

It's a CC attack that is initiated with a Psychic test. HG does not stop Psychic tests. Therefore HG does not stop CF.

Who cares how it is initiatied? It is a close combat attack regardless. It doesn't matter where it came from. Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack coming from the model, is it not? You can make the psychic test all you want. It is the result of the psychic test that is negated.

HG says "that model may not attack in the ensuing close combat". Note the difference between that and stopping all close combat attacks

That makes sense but is it not 2 different parts?

1. Psychic test to make sure it can activate.
2. The Actually swings from Cleansing Flame

Since the Swings are CC I was wondering if The gaze would stop it.

Riozaki wrote:That makes sense but is it not 2 different parts?

1. Psychic test to make sure it can activate.
2. The Actually swings from Cleansing Flame

Since the Swings are CC I was wondering if The gaze would stop it.

They are not "in the ensuing close combat". They happen before attacks are made, by definition (since you resolve the power immediately, and the power must be case before attacks are made).

rigeld2 wrote:
HG says "that model may not attack in the ensuing close combat". Note the difference between that and stopping all close combat attacks

Yes, I see the difference. I am having a hard time wrapping my head around "not being able to attack in the ensuing close combat" and then proceeding to make "close combat attacks".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

rigeld2 wrote:
They are not "in the ensuing close combat".

I would argue that the entirety of that assault is the "ensuing close combat." To say that it is not is to start to create mini-phases within the actual assault phase, which we both know aren't there. To swing your attacks "before all other attacks are made" is still a part of the "ensuing close combat", just before the Initiative Step. Just because it happens before the other swings doesn't make it somehow not apart of the close combat.

If that were true, then Cleansing Flame wouldn't count towards combat resolution.

puma713 wrote:Just because it happens before the other swings doesn't make it somehow not apart of the close combat.

Except it does - because of the trigger it can only ever mean that it happens before any attacks.

If that were true, then Cleansing Flame wouldn't count towards combat resolution.

Not true. There's nothing that limits wounds caused to only those in the initiative step - Perils, for example, would be counted into the combat resolution.

edit:

To say that it is not is to start to create mini-phases within the actual assault phase, which we both know aren't there.

Like there's no "beginning of the movement phase" or "end of the movement phase" or "before movement"?

Hypnotic gaze also happens before combat, their activation is exact wording in their codex. So why does Flame still get priority, hypnotic gaze is supposed to stop them from attack does it not? I don't understand why it still goes off if it happens exactly at the same time Gaze does. :(

Cleansing Flame does not get priority, but neither does Hypnotic Gaze.

They happen at exactly the same time, so they both work.

To let Hypnotic Gaze stop the model from using Cleansing Flame is to say that 2 things that happen at the exact same time do not happen at the exact same time.

Riozaki wrote:Hypnotic gaze also happens before combat, their activation is exact wording in their codex. So why does Flame still get priority, hypnotic gaze is supposed to stop them from attack does it not? I don't understand why it still goes off if it happens exactly at the same time Gaze does. :(

It's not getting priority - they go off at the same time.
Even if they didn't - CF goes off before the "ensuing close combat" which is where HG denies attacks.
All that on top of the fact that HG doesn't deny the use of a psychic power.

HG would stop Crowe from using his normal attacks as well as his last stand strike. However Cleasing Flame, like HG both take place before any blows are struck in the combat. Therefore they take place before the combat that HG would affect. The main reason i see them ammending Cleasing Flame to a CC attack is so that units like witches would still get there inv in cc against it.

I am not saying that Gaze denies psychic power, but I wanted to know why it still did dmg.

Let me use Doom of Malantai for instance. If Doom uses cataclym and is blocked by a psychic hood. Doom still has to take wounds despite he didnt get to shoot. Shouldn't this work the same way?

Riozaki wrote:I am not saying that Gaze denies psychic power, but I wanted to know why it still did dmg.

Let me use Doom of Malantai for instance. If Doom uses cataclym and is blocked by a psychic hood. Doom still has to take wounds despite he didnt get to shoot. Shouldn't this work the same way?

Except he wouldn't take the wounds. Taking the wounds is a function of the power, and a hood cancels the power.

Riozaki wrote:I am not saying that Gaze denies psychic power, but I wanted to know why it still did dmg.

Let me use Doom of Malantai for instance. If Doom uses cataclym and is blocked by a psychic hood. Doom still has to take wounds despite he didnt get to shoot. Shouldn't this work the same way?

That is a different situation and Rig has it correct.

In: Hypnotic Gaze vs. Cleansing Flame you resolve both powers that happen simultaneously, then move on to the I10 step of the combat.

a similar situation is: if we both have models striking at Initiative 4, and I roll my dice first and kill 5 guys, your 5 guys still get to strike back because all of those attacks at Initiative 4 happen Simultaneously.

From what I can read they go at the same time, after assault moves but before blows. As for the powers themselves there is a difference that needs to be made. The Broodlord is stated as it being him that casts the power. For Grey Knight units it is the whole squad that effectively takes the test and if they peril one model (usually the justicar if he is alive) is removed. So how can a phychic move that stops a model fighting in the following assault phase stop a psychic power that is cast from the squad (not an individual model) from activating before the combat takes place even if said power is classed as a CC move? Now if it was specifically the justicar only who was a psyker and it was him casting the power alone then maybe it could cause some problems. But it isn't, its a squad using the power and the move doesn't originate from any specific model either, the squad casts it on another squad who then takes wounds according to a dice roll. No specific model is striking so no specific model can be picked out and said to be using the power.

LynxSarnage wrote:From what I can read they go at the same time, after assault moves but before blows. As for the powers themselves there is a difference that needs to be made. The Broodlord is stated as it being him that casts the power. For Grey Knight units it is the whole squad that effectively takes the test and if they peril one model (usually the justicar if he is alive) is removed. So how can a phychic move that stops a model fighting in the following assault phase stop a psychic power that is cast from the squad (not an individual model) from activating before the combat takes place even if said power is classed as a CC move? Now if it was specifically the justicar only who was a psyker and it was him casting the power alone then maybe it could cause some problems. But it isn't, its a squad using the power and the move doesn't originate from any specific model either, the squad casts it on another squad who then takes wounds according to a dice roll. No specific model is striking so no specific model can be picked out and said to be using the power.

You should read the example in the thread.

Well, the FAQ screws this all up.

Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. So, it can be prevented by Hypnotic Gaze. It all comes down to who activates the power first.

So, if you're the Tyranid player, be prepared to shout "Hypnotic Gaze" once you finish moving your last model. Feel free to fake out your opponent and get them to shout "Cleansing Flame" at the wrong time.

If they do shout "Cleansing Flame" first, say you're not done assaulting, and declare another assault (even if it's clearly well too far to actually succeed).

Lynx but i was only 1 model. I believe it was Crowe? He was completely alone.

@ Lynx: He was not talking about a unit of purifiers.

He was talking about Crowe "Grey Knight HQ"and the "Broodlord is in B2B with HQ and tries to Hypnotic Gaze"

Grakmar wrote:Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. So, it can be prevented by Hypnotic Gaze. It all comes down to who activates the power first.

No, it can not, as the both happen Simultaneously.

Grakmar wrote:Well, the FAQ screws this all up.

Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. So, it can be prevented by Hypnotic Gaze. It all comes down to who activates the power first.

Not true.

DeathReaper wrote:@ Lynx: He was not talking about a unit of purifiers.

He was talking about Crowe "Grey Knight HQ"and the "Broodlord is in B2B with HQ and tries to Hypnotic Gaze"

Grakmar wrote:Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. So, it can be prevented by Hypnotic Gaze. It all comes down to who activates the power first.

No, it can not, as the both happen Simultaneously.

Why do they happen simultaneously? We have nothing else in the game, apart from CCA in the same initiative step, that happens simultaneously.

rigeld2 wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Well, the FAQ screws this all up.

Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. So, it can be prevented by Hypnotic Gaze. It all comes down to who activates the power first.

Not true.

What part isn't true? Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack (thanks to the FAQ). Hypnotic Gaze prevents close combat attacks. So, Gaze prevents Flame.

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:Just because it happens before the other swings doesn't make it somehow not apart of the close combat.

Except it does - because of the trigger it can only ever mean that it happens before any attacks.

Okay? "the attacks" =/= "the ensuing close combat". In my mind, the "ensuing close combat" would encompass anything that has to do with the following combat. But, to see if I understand you - all that is covered by "ensuing close combat" is initiative-step-attacks? That is a very specific definition for a very broad term. Where are the attacks happening, then, if before the close combat? In which part of the assault phase?

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:If that were true, then Cleansing Flame wouldn't count towards combat resolution.

Not true. There's nothing that limits wounds caused to only those in the initiative step - Perils, for example, would be counted into the combat resolution.

Because, once again, when you rolled the Perils, you were a part of the "close combat".

That is the point you're missing.

Grakmar wrote:

DeathReaper wrote:@ Lynx: He was not talking about a unit of purifiers.

He was talking about Crowe "Grey Knight HQ"and the "Broodlord is in B2B with HQ and tries to Hypnotic Gaze"

Grakmar wrote:Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. So, it can be prevented by Hypnotic Gaze. It all comes down to who activates the power first.

No, it can not, as the both happen Simultaneously.

Why do they happen simultaneously? We have nothing else in the game, apart from CCA in the same initiative step, that happens simultaneously.

Firing from a single unit.

They have the same triggering requirement. Therefore they must go off at the same time, since neither is required to go off before the other.

rigeld2 wrote:

Grakmar wrote:Well, the FAQ screws this all up.

Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack. So, it can be prevented by Hypnotic Gaze. It all comes down to who activates the power first.

Not true.

What part isn't true? Cleansing Flame is a close combat attack (thanks to the FAQ). Hypnotic Gaze prevents close combat attacks. So, Gaze prevents Flame.

Hypnotic Gaze does not prevent close combat attacks.
I've quoted the rule already in this thread.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

puma713 wrote:Okay? "the attacks" =/= "the ensuing close combat". In my mind, the "ensuing close combat" would encompass anything that has to do with the following combat. But, to see if I understand you - all that is covered by "ensuing close combat" is initiative-step-attacks? That is a very specific definition for a very broad term. Where are the attacks happening, then, if before the close combat? In which part of the assault phase?

I'll quote - "after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck" is when CF goes off. iow - before initiative 10.
This wording is similar to when HG happens - before attacks.

rigeld2 wrote:They have the same triggering requirement. Therefore they must go off at the same time, since neither is required to go off before the other.

So, I have Eldrad on the field. He casts Doom on your unit, but gets Perils. He then casts Fortune on himself and succeeds.

Since both of those trigger "at the start of the turn", does that mean he gets a re-roll on that Perils because of Fortune, as those are cast "simultaneously"?

Grakmar wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:They have the same triggering requirement. Therefore they must go off at the same time, since neither is required to go off before the other.

So, I have Eldrad on the field. He casts Doom on your unit, but gets Perils. He then casts Fortune on himself and succeeds.

Since both of those trigger "at the start of the turn", does that mean he gets a re-roll on that Perils because of Fortune, as those are cast "simultaneously"?

No - because they're simultaneous they don't affect each other... which is what simultaneous means.

rigeld2 wrote:

puma713 wrote:Okay? "the attacks" =/= "the ensuing close combat". In my mind, the "ensuing close combat" would encompass anything that has to do with the following combat. But, to see if I understand you - all that is covered by "ensuing close combat" is initiative-step-attacks? That is a very specific definition for a very broad term. Where are the attacks happening, then, if before the close combat? In which part of the assault phase?

I'll quote - "after assault moves have been made, but before any blows have been struck" is when CF goes off. iow - before initiative 10.
This wording is similar to when HG happens - before attacks.

Again. . .okay? What I want to know is where you're getting that "initiative-step-attacks" are all that count as a part of the "close combat".

Everything that can affect the close combat is a part of the close combat. That is what Combat Resolution represents: what happened during the close combat. "The close combat" is not a restrictive term. If it was, it would be defined somewhere. It is a broad term covering anything that is about to happen (ensuing) in regards to assault (close combat).

Edit: For my money, Hypnotic Gaze happens even before CF. The reasoning behind this, is Hypnotic Gaze is affecting the entire (close combat) that is about to happen. CF is apart of the (close combat), in fact, it is the very next step, right before Initiative 10. Hypnotic Gaze is affecting the umbrella of "close combat", which Cleansing Flame is under.