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I am relatively new to 40K, and don't spend nearly as much time as I would like playing it

I want to ask about a question of etiquette; is tailoring to Spess Mehriens bad?

It seems that half the codexes are marines, and more than half the players at my store use BA, GK, SW, etc.

I play tau, which gives me all sorts of armour piercing weapons semmingly specifically made to kill Space marines, Termies, Land Raiders, and similar hard targets. Is avoiding most of the horde killers and sticking to as much AP 2 Plasma rifles as I can cheesy, or just good common sense?

Any opinions would be appreciated! Thanks!

Tailoring your list against a certain player: Bad Form.

Everything else is pretty much up in the air.

Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote:I am relatively new to 40K, and don't spend nearly as much time as I would like playing it

I want to ask about a question of etiquette; is tailoring to Spess Mehriens bad?

It seems that half the codexes are marines, and more than half the players at my store use BA, GK, SW, etc.

I play tau, which gives me all sorts of armour piercing weapons semmingly specifically made to kill Space marines, Termies, Land Raiders, and similar hard targets. Is avoiding most of the horde killers and sticking to as much AP 2 Plasma rifles as I can cheesy, or just good common sense?

Any opinions would be appreciated! Thanks!

It's just good sense

If all your battlesuits run plasma rifles (basically the only way for tau to bring plasma to the table) then it's not tailoring, it's list building.

You need to be able to kill things in 40k. There's nothing wrong with taking plasma on crisis suits.

In general in a tau list, the only things that is considered "Tailoring" is to take Vespids, because there's nothing else those things are worth for.

Everything else? Railguns, plasma, missle pods, even ion cannons are fair game.

If you show up with one army and play whoever, that's not tailoring even if it is a MEQ-killer list. If you bring out an army, then start swapping out options to tailor your list to who you're fighting, that's poor form. Targeting a specific player's list is just jackassery.

However, if you had a couple lists and did some minor customizing, that's only natural. I mean a Tau Commander isn't going to use Rail Cannons against a Green Tide. All-comers lists are the most sporting, but really, someone shows with a completely unpainted or proxied GK, BA or SW, they deserve everything you can toss at them.

Changing your list immediately before a game to specifically counter your opponent's army without allowing them the chance to do the same is bad form.

Writing your list to specifically counter one type of army that there's no guarantee you'll be fighting when you show up... is just how things go.

if 9/10 dudes at your local play marines and you tailor to fight that (not them) thats fine, if you end up playing that 1 ork player and change your list to all out pie plates etc. then that is not on, you should try to make an all comers list as much as possible

Formosa wrote:if 9/10 dudes at your local play marines and you tailor to fight that (not them) thats fine, if you end up playing that 1 ork player and change your list to all out pie plates etc. then that is not on, you should try to make an all comers list as much as possible

No, thats bullsquirt.

You should always tailor your list to your opponents codex, and allow him to do the same. Organize the game a week before "Hey, my orks vs your IG next wednesday?" "Sure" and go from there.

Theres no reason to make a single all-comers list, and deviating from a 'standard' list to one that varies from opponent to opponent should never be viewed as bad form but encouraged wherever possible as it makes so many more options in the codex viable, and breaks the mold of 'net lists' that we see so much.

Kaldor wrote:

Formosa wrote:if 9/10 dudes at your local play marines and you tailor to fight that (not them) thats fine, if you end up playing that 1 ork player and change your list to all out pie plates etc. then that is not on, you should try to make an all comers list as much as possible

No, thats bullsquirt.

You should always tailor your list to your opponents codex, and allow him to do the same. Organize the game a week before "Hey, my orks vs your IG next wednesday?" "Sure" and go from there.

Theres no reason to make a single all-comers list, and deviating from a 'standard' list to one that varies from opponent to opponent should never be viewed as bad form but encouraged wherever possible as it makes so many more options in the codex viable, and breaks the mold of 'net lists' that we see so much.

If you just meet someone in a game club or store and play a pick up game and they spend 5-10 minutes altering their list to beta yours.
That is bad form.
If you happen to have a listen with a predilection towards rinsing the Emperor's finest...
Well that's just playing the odds...

purplefood wrote:If you just meet someone in a game club or store and play a pick up game and they spend 5-10 minutes altering their list to beta yours.
That is bad form.
If you happen to have a listen with a predilection towards rinsing the Emperor's finest...
Well that's just playing the odds...

Tailoring against a specific list is bad form. That means looking over your opponents list, and taking units to directly counter the units they have taken, is bad form, because it doesn't give the opponent a chance to respond. His list was locked in, and then you built yours to beat it. Thats just not on.

But building your list to face a specific codex should always be encouraged. It adds so much more to the game, and requires you to THINK so much more during the army building process. Both players should always have a chance to do that, however!

Kaldor wrote:

purplefood wrote:If you just meet someone in a game club or store and play a pick up game and they spend 5-10 minutes altering their list to beta yours.
That is bad form.
If you happen to have a listen with a predilection towards rinsing the Emperor's finest...
Well that's just playing the odds...

Tailoring against a specific list is bad form. That means looking over your opponents list, and taking units to directly counter the units they have taken, is bad form, because it doesn't give the opponent a chance to respond. His list was locked in, and then you built yours to beat it. Thats just not on.

But building your list to face a specific codex should always be encouraged. It adds so much more to the game, and requires you to THINK so much more during the army building process. Both players should always have a chance to do that, however!

Yeah but that's if you only ever plan on playing 1 person...
Many people plan on playing more than 1 person...
I'd also add that making an all-comers list requires you to think more than tailoring to a certain codex...
With an all-comers list you need to balance everything which isn't necessarily so with a tailored list.

I think formosa meant don't change the list prior to a pickup game against orks

I would say tailoring is only poor form if your opponent has no idea what kind of army you play, but you know what he's going to bring.

But in general, if you're going to be facing a lot of MEQ players, there's nothing wrong with tweaking your list so that it's better off. After all, your not purposefully trying to take down a particular player's list, only Marines in general.

Most people do design lists to take on Marines for tournaments so feel free.

No. Not at all.

Sounds fine to me. Where I play, everyone runs mech, and most are either spess mehreens or other IG. So I bring antitank weapons in literally every spot I can. It's what i know I'll be up against, so I'm not really tailoring, as I use that list vs everyone.

Tailoring to your local meta is just fine.

Be careful not to get too overboard with tailoring, though, as the more you do it, the more one-sided and exploitable your list becomes.

I tailored my tournament daemon list to specifically fight Grey Knights. They struggle against the blessing of khorne unless they know it will be against them and take a specific option to counter it. But daemons are an incredibly rare tournament army, so no GK player in their right mind is going to waste points putting in anti daemon items in their list.

Of course in the first tournament I played with it I went 1-2 losing against both orks and dark eldar without ever getting to go against a grey knight army (the win was against BA). So while in a later tournament it worked out like I planned there is no guarantee my tailored list is ever going to get to fight the army I designed it to fight despite them being common.

So if you design your tau to kill marines there is nothing wrong with it, because there is always the chance you won't end up against marines.

Oh and @ kaldor and anyone else who encourages both players to tell each other days in advance what armies they are playing. *insert long drawn out expletive starting with F here* that. The moment a daemons player lets a GK player know what codex he is using is the moment the daemon player lost the game. And while GK vs Daemons is an extreme example. There are far too many "My rock beats your scissors because your codex doesn't have a paper list" situations in 40k for that to be a good idea.

IcedAnimals wrote:And while GK vs Daemons is an extreme example. There are far too many "My rock beats your scissors because your codex doesn't have a paper list" situations in 40k for that to be a good idea.

Nope. Tailoring allows players to choose units that mitigate the otherwise built-in imbalances in the lists.

Kaldor wrote:

IcedAnimals wrote:And while GK vs Daemons is an extreme example. There are far too many "My rock beats your scissors because your codex doesn't have a paper list" situations in 40k for that to be a good idea.

Nope. Tailoring allows players to choose units that mitigate the otherwise built-in imbalances in the lists.

Unless of course the other books imbalances are far lesser than that of the other codex. I.E Daemon codex vs gray knights, or Tau vs Gray Knights "plasma siphon", or Gray Knights vs other gray knights "Oh hey I have all that cool anti-psyker stuff I can now use!"

I hink that based off these responses, I'm fine to build an anti-marine army. However, I have taken into account the chance of fighting different stuff, and have therefore added some pie plate+kroot to balance out the list. While the list is still focused on the emperor's chosen (to whom I bear a special hate...), I think it's viable in friendly games against xenos armies, which is the stage I'm at in my wargaming ability.

Guard gunlines and parking lots will probably wreck me, but otherwise I think I'm good to go.

This discussion has raised another question for me; if anti-MEQ tailoring is so prevalent, should one avoid bringing MEQ for the sake of better armour saves?

purplefood wrote:
I'd also add that making an all-comers list requires you to think more than tailoring to a certain codex...

Yeah, but unless you're fighting in a lot of tournaments, it's also just kinda pointless. After all, no real general thinks to himself "How can I make this as challenging as possible for my guys to win?"

This is why our weekly club is blind matches... bring your list, put it on the table. We each roll two dice, and the two highest totals play each other and march on down the line. Then we roll once for mission type and everyone plays that mission that day.

Fair enough for us, and makes the unpredictability of it really fun.

We have 2 IG, 1 Eldar, 2 CSM, 2 Ork, 1 SoB, 1 Tau, 1 SW, 1 Nid, 1 BA, 3 CM players (+some FLGS foot traffic, but they have to tow the line if they want to play, just like jumping into someone's RPG for an evening)... and me (see my sig). I run the whole shindig, and am the designated odd man out if there aren't enough players present (though sometimes the FLGS owner (who is awesome) will hop in to make it even if I'm not working on converting Tanith or painting Honour Guard). Tons of fun, and I recommend it.

To the OP, making an anti Marine list is just smart in most venues, make sure you can still compete against hordes and be happy with making an intelligent list.

Changing lists to beat someone else's established list is low, and is the reason we built our little club's rules.

Real generals in uncertain combat zones will usually be certain to be able to handle probable opponents and tactics that threaten them. Admittedly in RL you usually know whether you'll be up against a full strength military, well-equipped mercs, poorly trained fanatics, etc, but if you have no intel you'll tend to assume worst case.

If you are building a list that you will take a lot of times, then taking ample tools to handle power armour is wise. 3+ is an incredibly common armour save. Seven Marine codices exist, and Sisters, many Necrons, many Tyranid MCs, Crisis Suits, some Aspect warriors, and more I have forgotten share that save. Just in the abstract there is a very good chance of facing something with a 3+ and decent Toughness, especially with marine codexes also being so very popular. Having the ability to crack tanks and kill power armour is just what you do in 5th edition.

As for avoiding a marine statline, keep in mind that there are a lot of good units that are vulnerable to the same kinds of firepower. Deciding not to take crisis suits because everyone has MLs and plasma to kill marines, well, that's just going to make your list worse.

Justicar_Thunderflanks wrote:I am relatively new to 40K, and don't spend nearly as much time as I would like playing it

I want to ask about a question of etiquette; is tailoring to Spess Mehriens bad?

It seems that half the codexes are marines, and more than half the players at my store use BA, GK, SW, etc.

I play tau, which gives me all sorts of armour piercing weapons semmingly specifically made to kill Space marines, Termies, Land Raiders, and similar hard targets. Is avoiding most of the horde killers and sticking to as much AP 2 Plasma rifles as I can cheesy, or just good common sense?

Any opinions would be appreciated! Thanks!

I personally think that using different lists against generic codex armies is fine, but a lot of people don't see it that way.

It's really whatever your gaming community decides it to be. If you do choose to modify your list, you should let your opponent know what you will be using.