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Hey dakka,

Yesterday in my FLGS's league game, my balanced Imotekh list got beat up by a IG player, who thought it cool to customize his list after he knew he'd be facing Necrons and had seen my list in a previous game the same evening. He brought 120+ guardsemen, 3 vendettas, and two LRs, and basically rank-fired through my saves. Maybe it is just me, but I think that's pretty beardy, especially as he admitted he would use this list only on Necrons. I view leagues to have tournament rules, so one TAC list per week. Anyway, this kind of stuff has prompted me to strengthen my TAC list even at the expense of fun units and fluffiness. So, I want to know what you think of this stomper list:

Nemesor 185
Overlord (scythe, weave, CCB, gauss cannon) 195
2x Court (pulsetek, veiltek) 115 each
2x 10 Immortals 170 each
3x 6 wraiths 210 each
3x AB gauss 90 each
total 1850

The idea is to put a veiltek and a pulsetek with each unit of immortals, and the nemesor in one of them. Then the nemesor can give tank hunter to an AB or furious assault to a wraith unit to pop vehicles. The veils are useful for staying out of trouble and claiming objectives on the last turn. Wraiths are kept minimal to save points. Generally the list is trying to minimize upgrades to get as many of the best units in the codex as possible. The overlord is a bit splurgy and can lose the CCB on smaller games to join one of the immortal squads.

Comments welcome

What kind of list were you running with Imotekh? If you were using scarabs, they should have eaten his army no probs.

My list was:
Imotekh with chronotek
Destroyer Lord
2x 8 warriors in a ghost ark
2x 6 wraiths with some coils
9 scarabs
3 spyders with claws
2x AnnBarges

His list was:
Stracken with meltas and astropath
Lord Commissar
2x 50 guardsmen combined squads with grenade launchers and one commissar upgrade
10 vets with meltas
3x vendettas
basic executioner
basic battlecannon russ

Scenario was dawn of war. Missions were kill points and two 40mm objectives. Major win if you get both missions. Minor win if you get one and draw on the other. Draw if neither player gets neither.

I made him deploy first then seized initiative with Imotekh. My lightning did nothing because of his few units. I shot a few guardsmen and glanced his tanks, but his outflanking vendettas killed the arks and then the barges. My wraiths lost a lot of models to the tanks and just the sheer volume of lasgun fire with first-rank-second-rank orders, killed two of the vendettas but did not have enough left to challenge the blobs. The scarabs were just too slow to get to anything and eventually died assaulting the blob screening his tanks. My DL and one of the wraiths killed his MBT but the DL then got lasgunned to death and refused to RP to kill the executioner. My warriors killed off his meltavets at my home objective after the vets blew up their ark. The game was draw on objectives but he won on kill points.

I would likely have stomped a typical guard list with my list. That is why his customization was so annoying.

In any case, this thread is about the new list.

One important observation from playing Newcrons more intensively recently is that scarabs are too slow. They have a nice charge as beasts, but getting anywhere is a pain, especially in dawn of war.

Scarabs are slow? Did you forget beasts have a possible 24" charge range in total and have fleet? Did you forget swarms have the stealth special rule? The only time Scarabs are slow is when they get bogged down in terrain.

Your new list isn't too bad, not a lot of vehicles really. Wraiths really should have whip coils on half of them. I also don't see much point in a veil just for a possible one time use, that's expensive points just to dump on a objective.

Not only that but you probably had two rounds of night fighting, right? You could have spawned another 6-9 scarabs in that time and have them assaulting one of his 50 man units in turn two or three. I'm guessing the vendettas were in reserve so he could (1) outflank them and (2) avoid lightning strikes for at least a couple of turns. The two tanks shouldn't have been able to shoot you for at least two turns (unless the vendettas came in on turn two and lit you up). Still it would have been a tough road to hoe once night fighting went away and you were left facing a couple of russes.

I started using 2 very mobile 12 man warrior blobs with an overlord orb/mss/ws/phearon, vieltek (solar pulse and nightmare shroud) and pulsetek. Not perfect against armor but they can appear anywhere anytime and glance on 6's or I might get lucky with the eldritch lance. If not there's always the warscythe next turn. That's always fun if you can get into rapid fir range.

mercer wrote:Scarabs are slow? Did you forget beasts have a possible 24" charge range in total and have fleet? Did you forget swarms have the stealth special rule? The only time Scarabs are slow is when they get bogged down in terrain.

That's the problem with them. They can get UP to 24 inches but only if within charge range across flat ground. It is VERY difficult to stay out of difficult terrain with 10-16 medium bases! If outside charge range, they just move a measly 6+d6, or less. This is going nowhere fast, especially on dawn of war.

This is so annoying that I have started considering giving them Obyron to DS with, then detaching Obyron before they kill him with their fearless wounds. But then the problem is you cannot farm them because the spyders are left behind, and you just spent 160 pts on a mover of 150 pt squad.

So, to have the scarabs be more effective, you have to support them with ~ 150 pts of spyders or Obyron. And, they still insta-die to S6+ weapons, get 2x wounds against blasts, and get ripped to shreds by their own low toughness, bad saves, and fearless wounds.

By comparison, wraiths are less expensive (270 for full coil 6, vs 150+150+), can work independently, do not suffer as much to fearless because of monstrously better saves, and are good against anything, not just vehicles, and are faster and can DS by themselves. So, why not go for 18 wraiths?? After all, this is a stomper list.

Your new list isn't too bad, not a lot of vehicles really.

That is a plus in a world of vendettas, dark lances, meltas, etc., especially when you are AV13 only until the first pen. Oh, you are going to dark-lance my immortals? Go right ahead. RP is better than WWB. The only reason I still have vehicles in the list is because CCBs get the cover save while still combat effective, while the ABs are so cost-efficient that losing them does not hurt me point-wise.

Wraiths really should have whip coils on half of them. I also don't see much point in a veil just for a possible one time use, that's expensive points just to dump on a objective.

I will utter a heresy here and say that maybe we don't need coils, especially in a Nemesor list. When they are about to charge in, the nemesor will give them furious charge, which will boost them to I3. Yes, MEQ will still hit first, but the really dangerous weapons are all I1 anyway. So, coils don't matter (as much). I would rather keep them basic and have the extra points for extra stompage.

Whips are pretty essential honestly... especially when you get locked into prolonged combats (i.e. TWC).

That said, nemesor isn't all hes cracked up to be. I've used him 7 games and the fact you can only give ONE unit whatever ability, and the fact wraiths are then only str 7. Tankhunting A-barges is good, but honestly two CCB is far better than that.

That said, you also need a third troop IMO. 3 troops MINIMUM at 1850+. Or at least the ability to get 3 troops...

Your Immo list looked pretty good, except I would run 3 barges, 2 wraiths, 1 large scarab blob, 1 CCB lord, and more warrior squads with some teks. Don't forget; CCB sweeps your opponent doesn't benefit from cover!

necron99 wrote:Not only that but you probably had two rounds of night fighting, right? You could have spawned another 6-9 scarabs in that time and have them assaulting one of his 50 man units in turn two or three.

I did spawn 9 more bases and I did assault one of his blobs. The problem is 100 guys firing with first-rank orders for two turns. That is at least 200 shots per turn at 24 inches, more if some of them are within double-tap. Then they counter-charge with Stracken and hit you on I3. Then you kill a few and take 15 fearless wounds.

By the way, night-fighting does not work very well against an army with searchlights.

I'm guessing the vendettas were in reserve so he could (1) outflank them and (2) avoid lightning strikes for at least a couple of turns. The two tanks shouldn't have been able to shoot you for at least two turns (unless the vendettas came in on turn two and lit you up). Still it would have been a tough road to hoe once night fighting went away and you were left facing a couple of russes.

Vendettas came in on turn 2 and 3 with his astropath making it easier and then rerolling the entry point. Putting them in the reserve is mostly so that he could outflank and hit my rear Av11 (screw you, Matt Ward).

Tanks can shoot just fine with searchlights, unless his rolling sucks, which it did not.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zid wrote:Whips are pretty essential honestly... especially when you get locked into prolonged combats (i.e. TWC).

I used to think so, but experience has made me doubt it. What is really damaging is S8 weapons that cause 2 wounds for every failed save as wraiths are T4 (screw you, Matt). So, thunderhammers and PF. But they are I1 anyway, so coils do nothing. Power weapons and normal attacks will strike me first, but with 3++, PW make no difference. Squads that can pile up the normal attacks are also ones that will severely outnumber me anyway, so a large number of bases will either touch non-coil wraiths or simply strike from second rank. Again, coils make no difference. But cutting the coils will save me up to 60 pts per squad. For 3 full wraith squads, that is up to 180 pts, so one of the squads is almost free of charge.

That said, nemesor isn't all hes cracked up to be. I've used him 7 games and the fact you can only give ONE unit whatever ability, and the fact wraiths are then only str 7. Tankhunting A-barges is good, but honestly two CCB is far better than that.

I have not used him yet, so cannot argue from experience. My idea is he gives you enormous flexibility for that critical shot or assault in each turn. How does 4x S8 TL tesla and 2x S6 gauss sound? Or 24 rending attacks at S7? Also, on larger games, you still get 2x CCB because Obyron is a superoverlord that does not take HQ slot when the nemesor is present.

That said, you also need a third troop IMO. 3 troops MINIMUM at 1850+. Or at least the ability to get 3 troops...

yes, that is a huge problem with the list, and in some ways with Necrons. I have been thinking of using 5x warriors on foot, just to have something cheap to leave behind on an objective, but then they become a prime soft target for whatever outflanker or DSer heads for that objective anyway.

Ultimately, the issue is the ghost ark is way too expensive to spam as a transport. I'd say the chimera is better in many ways and half the cost. The ghost arks taking into account their restrictions should be about 80 pts IMO. At 115, they just take up too much juice when in numbers.

Your Immo list looked pretty good, except I would run 3 barges, 2 wraiths, 1 large scarab blob, 1 CCB lord, and more warrior squads with some teks. Don't forget; CCB sweeps your opponent doesn't benefit from cover!

I agree but it cannot all be fit in 1850 pts, unless you drop the arks, which will make the warriors far more vulnerable and slower.

Necrontyr40k wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zid wrote:Whips are pretty essential honestly... especially when you get locked into prolonged combats (i.e. TWC).

I used to think so, but experience has made me doubt it. What is really damaging is S8 weapons that cause 2 wounds for every failed save as wraiths are T4 (screw you, Matt). So, thunderhammers and PF. But they are I1 anyway, so coils do nothing. Power weapons and normal attacks will strike me first, but with 3++, PW make no difference. Squads that can pile up the normal attacks are also ones that will severely outnumber me anyway, so a large number of bases will either touch non-coil wraiths or simply strike from second rank. Again, coils make no difference. But cutting the coils will save me up to 60 pts per squad. For 3 full wraith squads, that is up to 180 pts, so one of the squads is almost free of charge.

Pretty valid, guess it depends on your meta. I find that things like TWC, and even BA assault marines, can really hurt wraiths on the charge. Without the coils that is greatly exacerbated. Being only T4, and having a marine save, and not be able to be 100% wound allocated really works against them.

That said, nemesor does give flexibility, but its not enough to be game changing. Like i said, a CCB does more damage, disrupts more, and overall creates a much bigger threat than nemesor will. But if you REALLY want nemesor, toss him in a squad of immortals, hes pretty cheap for the wargear he comes with.

Zid wrote:

Pretty valid, guess it depends on your meta. I find that things like TWC, and even BA assault marines, can really hurt wraiths on the charge. Without the coils that is greatly exacerbated. Being only T4, and having a marine save, and not be able to be 100% wound allocated really works against them.

Regarding BA, they are not as bad against wraiths because after they DS, they are sitting ducks for one turn. In that turn, it is relatively easy to double-team one squad with 2 squads of wraiths, so the BA do not get the charge bonus. Also rending chews through their armor and FNP. I agree coils will make a difference then, but if you know you will be facing BA, and it is ok to customize, then bring a list with monoliths to particle-whip them when they land. You can even DS with the monoliths close by - the whip has range 24".

Anyway, back to the wraiths without coils, I will try it out and see if it makes a lot of difference.

Necrontyr40k wrote:

That's the problem with them. They can get UP to 24 inches but only if within charge range across flat ground. It is VERY difficult to stay out of difficult terrain with 10-16 medium bases! If outside charge range, they just move a measly 6+d6, or less. This is going nowhere fast, especially on dawn of war.

This is so annoying that I have started considering giving them Obyron to DS with, then detaching Obyron before they kill him with their fearless wounds. But then the problem is you cannot farm them because the spyders are left behind, and you just spent 160 pts on a mover of 150 pt squad.

So, to have the scarabs be more effective, you have to support them with ~ 150 pts of spyders or Obyron. And, they still insta-die to S6+ weapons, get 2x wounds against blasts, and get ripped to shreds by their own low toughness, bad saves, and fearless wounds.

By comparison, wraiths are less expensive (270 for full coil 6, vs 150+150+), can work independently, do not suffer as much to fearless because of monstrously better saves, and are good against anything, not just vehicles, and are faster and can DS by themselves. So, why not go for 18 wraiths?? After all, this is a stomper list.

Unless you're doing something wrong, you should be in assault turn 2 with Scarabs, turn 3 dawn of war. I do on the other hand agree with what you said about Spyders, the Scarabs run off and you find the Spyders not to be doing a fat lot else. I also jumped to more Wraiths and I haven't looked back.

That is a plus in a world of vendettas, dark lances, meltas, etc., especially when you are AV13 only until the first pen. Oh, you are going to dark-lance my immortals? Go right ahead. RP is better than WWB. The only reason I still have vehicles in the list is because CCBs get the cover save while still combat effective, while the ABs are so cost-efficient that losing them does not hurt me point-wise.

Having less vehicles is bad. With all those guns you've mentioned, you've just given them less targets to fire, which with the amount of guns against you won't be hard to do so. Meltas and lances don't struggle against the Necron vehicles. I am pretty sure losing Annihilation Barges would hurt you, they pump out a nice amount of anti tank fire power and surpression.

I will utter a heresy here and say that maybe we don't need coils, especially in a Nemesor list. When they are about to charge in, the nemesor will give them furious charge, which will boost them to I3. Yes, MEQ will still hit first, but the really dangerous weapons are all I1 anyway. So, coils don't matter (as much). I would rather keep them basic and have the extra points for extra stompage.

Wraiths definitely need whip coils. Not on all of them, but on half of them and even in a nemesor list as they would only be I3, so still striking last.